Madura Wrongko's of Various Types?
 

I have often been amazed at the variety in the dress of Keris coming from Madura.
I wonder just how many different types of Keris dress can be identified with a Madura origin?

Another...
 

Another Maduran form.
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...5925.sized.jpg

The Gayaman sheath, Solo version, is also seen sometimes.

Michael

Another Gayaman
 

This combination seems to have been together for a long time .
The pesi is wrapped with human hair.
I've never had this one apart; I'm kind of superstisius about this one. :o

Another Maduran form
 

Here is a Madura keris in my collection :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...eelding574.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...eelding575.jpg

Here are a few more examples. Please excuse the image quality, as i shot these very quickly on my porch this afternoon :o :

Here are three patrems from Madura in three basic sheath forms:

Yes, I have also often wondered at the variety in Madura wrongkos. There`s a lot of variety in the handles too.

Regarding the photos that have already been posted:-

VVV--- I don't think this is a Solo style wrongko, it appears to me to be East Jawa; Madura is of course a part of East Jawa. The handle looks like an old North Coast one, not Madura.

Rick---why do you think this is Madura dress? The wrongko is Jogja, although the handle is Madura.

Here are few Madura wrongkos from my own collection. I`ve left handles and blades, and mendak out of it for the time being, to allow us to focus on just one element of dress at a time.

And a couple more.

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey
Rick---why do you think this is Madura dress? The wrongko is Jogja, although the handle is Madura.

Because the shape is so similar to the one you present as Madura and the one David also presents . I perceive a similar certain lack of 'belly' on the left hand end .
I guess I need a finer eye to discern Jogya gayaman wrongkos from Maduran .

Are there names to identify the various types of sheath form?
Afaik, from the pictures... Ladrang Madura, Gayaman Madura and Sandang Walikat Madura in general.

David, your 1st piece, the sheath form is interesting and a beauty (the bird hilt too.) Your horn Sandang Walikat sheath is exquisite.

Alan, what are these type called? This one, the wings reminds me of the piece from Nagasasra's "Unusual Keris Dress from where?" thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=13594&stc=1

This one, the central panel is typical of Maduran carvings, common especially on Donoriko hilt form. But its unique on this sheath form.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=13613&stc=1

This one, upper portion of the wrangka, looks almost a Malay form, except for the carvings and the curves at the lower part of the cross-piece.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=13623&stc=1

Interesting thread... ;)

I'm sorry, I cannot give names on Madura keris with any authority, and it is not my habit to say something unless I can back it up.

I have visited Madura a few times, and have spent a bit of time in the area of Suminep, but even when I was there, I was getting given different names for the same thing , by different people.

To be absolutely honest about this naming of things, it is something that has very little interest for me. It used to have, but as time has gone by I have found that one person will swear that something is called such and such, and then an equally qualified person will come along and call it something else, or I`ll go ten miles down the road and find it has a different name, or I`ll get a firm fix on the name of something, and then ask the same highly respected source ten years later what the same thing is called, and get a different name.

I call this whole thing :- "the name game", and I feel that the only way in which it should be played is by giving the name, along with the source, the geographic location it was obtained, and the date.

With Madura dress, some of the motifs can be identified with either Suminep or Pamekesan.

I have seen two styles of highly carved wrongkos in the Suminep Kraton museum that were identified as "gabilan", and "brahmana rsi".

I have heard stories about the origin of some motifs and some wrongko styles.

But I cannot give names for the wrongko styles, nor the handle styles, that I could present a case in court for, and win.

Yep Rick:- it don`t got a belly.

Proportion is totally different.

In fact, David`s patrem example, and my Bali/Madura example I see as having only a slight similarity.

Your example is inarguably Jogja---longer, thinner, quite graceful. Humanise it. What do you see? Personally, I see a graceful woman in the prime of life.

Humanise my Bali/Madura and I see a middle aged housewife who likes to eat too much.

Humanise David`s and again I see a fairly substantial lady who is fond of food, and who could do with a bit of a bath and some make up.

To me, none of these wrongkos---yours, mine, David`s---look at all similar.

We need to take very careful note of very tiny differences.

Quote from Alan "We need to take very careful note of very tiny differences."

Well said Alan!

Thank you for the great response so far, wonderful pieces :)

Here are a few more:

Hey....wait a minute....a bath?! :D
That green tinge is bad color balancing BTW. Part of why i apologized for my picture quality. :) The horn on the sandang walikat is green horn, but the color isn't quite that green. Hey, maybe they all need a bath. :D
Alan is right, of course. There are lots of small subtle differences which seperate these sheaths as specific variations on a form.
As for the name game, i tend to agree with Alan, though i guess it helps to at least have names for the general form types. In that sense i would guess that my first two examples are ladrang forms (formal), the bone horse head patrem is also a ladrang form, the ivory patrem is gayaman and the horn sheath is obviously sandang. The problem with this though is that i have no idea which of these catagories some of Alan's pieces would fall into. Would the sheath with the bird w/the floral design in the center be a formal dress sheath. What about the one with the horse that is basically the same shape. To me the lion sheaths that are known to be connnected with keris taken home by Dutch soldiers appear to be based on a gayaman form. Do these sheath always have the Dutch soldier connection or were some made for indigenous consumption?

When I started talking abouts baths and make-up and women, I was talking figuratively. That patrem wrongko would benefit from being repolished, but if you did that you`d lose the patina so beloved of many collectors.

As to names, I've noticed that the more names I know, the more I tend towards using English names and giving English descriptions.

All the wrongkos shown in my pics were acquired in Indonesia, and all required some degree of restoration. Several were acquired in the Suminep area of Madura , including the two lions, the waterlily motif, and the bird.

This type may have been favoured by Dutch soldiers, but it would seem that some locals in Madura also had a liking for these highly ornamented pieces.

Erik, do you feel that perhaps there may be a stronger connection with East Jawa generally, than with Madura specifically, for that mamas sandang walikat?

"VVV--- I don't think this is a Solo style wrongko, it appears to me to be East Jawa; Madura is of course a part of East Jawa. The handle looks like an old North Coast one, not Madura."

Alan,

Thanks for correcting my description.
I find it hard to see the place of origin of some of the Putra Satu/Raksasa hilt variations.

Michael

Yeah, they can sometimes be pretty confusing.

There is a whole batch of handle types that seem to me to be just about equally able to be described as "Madura", or "North Coast". This one I don`t think is one of them , but all these intricately carved handles need to be looked at hard and with adequate references.

The wrongko seems to resemble a Solo gayam , but it is not. The very small differences that could only be pointed out if you had this and textbook Solo side by side give it away. Yes, certainly the overall shape is Solo, but this particular type is associated with East Jawa. I recently acquired a small, old collection of ---I think---8 of these East Jawa keris, and if you see a number of them together like that it is easy to recognise that they cannot be Solo.

Ditto on that. ;)

Could you further elaborate on this, please. :)
I would love to hear the stories. :)

It's ok if you cannot give. I won't sue you in court. ;)

I'm not interested in "the name game" either, but would love to use common terms for the purpose of discussion. It's easier so that others could be "in the same frequency", whether we use what the locals use, English names or general form as identifier to what is being referred.

It would be nice if we could have pictures of these form. :D

David, This is the first time... I've seen your lovely, exquisite fittings. The 1st one is an eye-popper (for me). I like it very much. :D The wood-grains are fantastic. Thanks for sharing. Now back to the topic... :)

Thanks Shahrial. You might have a tougher time getting me to show the blades. ;) :)
That first one is a beauty indeed. This is one of my few all modern keris (dress and blade), with a late 20thC blade. I am very pleased this level of craftsmanship still exists. :)

I possibly may have examples of gabilan and brahmana rsi around somewhere, but I can`t put my hand on them, and right now I do not have time to look. The highly carved example with the horse handle, that David posted, would be a gabilan. Brahmana rsi is more scarce, and is also highly carved, but is a fatter style.The examples I saw in the museum gave every appearance of being quite old.

With motifs on handles, a crown and tumpal ( a triangular pattern) is normally associated with Pamekesan, the winged horse and a dragon with Suminep.

What I meant by "---win in court---" was that I like to be pretty positive about something if I state that something is so. I may still be wrong, but if I say something is so, I want to be able to mount a case based on evidence and/or logical argument, that will prove my point or position. I dislike intensely, hypothesis presented as fact.

Yes, I agree, it does help if everybody can use the same terminology in a discussion. One of the great advantages of Harsrinuksmo`s ensiklopedi is that it provides a very adequate vocabulary to allow keris discussion. In describing or discussing keris, I will often not use the terminology or names that I have learnt over the years, and will instead opt to use the terms that everybody understands.I think everybody generally understands Surakarta terms for wrongkos, so I usually use these terms, rather than try to use the correct regional term for type of wrongko. With the handle of a keris , I usually use the word "handle", simply because there are several words in general use in Jawa---ukiran, jejeran, gagang---and the name for a handle varies from place to place, so I use handle as the word everybody understands. Even in Bali, dealers who sell keris handles now refer to them as "endel".

The stories might have to wait.

Alan, I knew that there would properly be a reaction with the photos of the mamas sandang walikat, and generally speaking it is perhaps more prevelent to say that the mamas wrongko is associated with East Jawa more so than Madura, but there is a fine line (and a short distance) on this one as I have seen many mamas attributed to Madura.
In my humble opinion it is sort of a "cross dresser" much like the wrongko's with Kala Langgam which as a Madura fashion can be seen in Bali, East Jawa, Central Jawa and even as an ornament on a presently listed Bugis Keris.

A few more:

Yeah, those kala topengans seem to crop up all over the place, but although the motif is found in a number of places, the interpretation is always different. I have often seen pics of the Madura style attributed to Bali, which is understandable, because although it may be "made in Madura", the root is Bali.Just as with the bright yellow gayam style wrongko that I posted a pic of.

With the mamas sandang walikats, I have seen them, and owned them, with Madura blades, and Madura handles, and as Madura is a part of East Jawa, I don`t have any problem at all with recognising that we can find the mamas SW in Madura, just as we can find it in East Jawa, Central Jawa, North Coast Jawa---in fact all over the place.

However, going back maybe 35 years a very well known collector who lived in Malang, East Jawa, told me that this was a uniquely East Javanese form of wrongko. He may have been wrong, but he should have known what he was talking about , because of where he was based.I have never come across anybody in Central Jawa who wanted to give these wrongkos anything other than an East Jawa attribution.

A big problem with something like this is that we just do not know where it originated, when, or for what reason. We can't associate it with a kraton---which would make things easy for us. All we have is this pretty scarce form of wrongko that is a more or less Javanese form, but in metal.

On Madura you have two major centres:- Suminep, which has a Kraton, and Pamekesan which is a Kabupaten, or regency. The towns associated with these places are just like country towns. Suminep is like a little country town, but the area it governs is very broad, because it covers a lot of little islands.
The countryside in Madura is dry, and poor. Wages there are depressed, there is virtually no industry, tobacco is grown, cattle are raised, and rice is almost in the luxury class.This is today I`m talking about.

Take it back 100 years or so.

I have a wee bit of difficulty in thinking of these mamas wrongkos as the product of a place that would have been essentially a poor, rural area.

A short journey by ferry from Madura we have Surabaya. Big, populous, lots of industry---currently drowning in mud from an uncapped oil test drilling. Been a big city for a long time.

These mamas SW's are never gimpy, cobbled together things---at least not in my experience---they show precision and skill in manufacture. The type of precision and skill one would expect to find in a city like Surabaya.

On the other hand, the keris fittings from Madura demonstrate lavish detail in carving, the type of thing that artist/farmers can do when they are filling in time before or after work, or in between seasons.

To my eye, the stern simplicity of the mamas SW just does not fit into the Madura artistic template.

But it does look like the product of advanced metal working techniques.

OK---here`s one of those hypotheses that I dislike so much:-

mamas sandang walikat wrongkos were possibly initially manufactured in Surabaya, and exported to other parts of East Jawa, including Madura.

Mamas Sandang Walikats.

The problem with attributions is, a large percentage of them are inaccurate in nature, that be weather from published Keris literature and most often from sales catalogs, including those from the larger specialty auction houses.

That said, your logical explanation of the Maduran artistic template is well taken, and I for one would tend to agree with your post and certainly honor the opinion of the very well known collector from Malang.

Attached a few more. One highly carved wrongko is quite common and of very recent make, the second one is more of a question mark, and I would really like the forums opinion on this one??

That first modern example is quite nice. The Madurese knack for wood carving doesn't seem to have diminished much over the years. :)
That second one is a puzzler. I can't say i have seen this style of sheath from either Jawa or Madura before. To my eye it is more like a cross between Bugis and Madurese forms. The pendok looks more Javanese to me though. Hopefully other will know better than i. :)

A similar wrangka... (ignore the fittings), what do you think. :confused:

Yes, the Madurese has not lost their flair for wood carving and even though this is a decorative wrongko most likely made for the tourist trade, they tend to apply that unmistakable level of workmanship.

As for the second one, it certainly look like Shahrial's wrongko is from the very same culture, one thing noticeable is both of them have a pendok in the Yogya/Central Javanese older style with the top edge arched.

Shahrial, do you know the origin of the wrongko on your piece?

Unfortunately, I do not know either. :confused: General discussions amongst local collectors had pointed in the direction of Pesisir, Java North Coast region. :)

I just read the entire thread from post number #1, if we look at post #9 the last two photos, look at the wrongko, imagine it without the leaf and flower carving.

Now is it my imagination, or is this wrongko formed just like the one from Alam Shah and mine as well?

Yes, to me, these three wrongkos look to have the same form.

Alam Shah`s and Erik`s examples look to have Jogja style pendoks.

The pendok on mine could be interpreted as Madura, or could be interpreted as generic Javanese.

I don`t think there is any doubt that the carving on my example is Madurese, and this carving is fairly old. The wrongko itself was bought in Aeng Tong-Tong, and was very dirty when purchased.

Because of where it was purchased, the person from whom it was purchased, and the condition when purchased, along with the unmistakably Madurese carving, I have always been inclined to accept this as another variation in Madura style, however, in light of these other two examples, maybe it is not.

At this point, my inclination is pend the Madura attribution and begin looking at old examples of known origin and provenance, which means pieces in old European collections.

North Coast Jawa has been suggested.
In my (20th century) experience, there is considerable overlap between North Coast Jawa, East Jawa, and Madura---and again between East Jawa and West Bali.

I have in mind a North Coast type of wrongko that does in fact have a rather squarish profile. Perhaps a closer look at this type may suggest something.

This presentation of three examples has highlighted one of the problems of identifying origin of all parts which go to make a complete keris. As soon as we move away from the influence of a Kraton, it appears that what we often find is a mix and match situation, and this mixing and matching is not exclusive to dealers. I recently had the opportunity to provide an opinion on an old keris of known point of collection , and collected in the early 1940's.It had been the keris of a village headman. It was a mixture of Bugis, Palembang, home-made repairs and substitutions, and a wrongko atasan that could have been from any one of many places. It was collected in Sumatra.

With keris, things do not always follow textbook examples.

Here are a few more Madura wrongkos.

And a few more.

The variety and beauty of these pieces are truly a statement as to the artistic talent of the Madurese carvers, all of the Madura wrongko in this thread express superb quality. I personally thank you all for participating.

However, there is one style of wrongko that I have been waiting to appear, as I do not have an example of my own, I am attaching photos with references to the books from which they are "lifted". Sorry about the poor quality of the photos, but they reflect the poor quality of the photo in the books.

This style is quite often being mistook as being from Bali, and advertised as such. But there are indeed differences in the details of the carving. Some authors call it as being from East Jawa or Jawa Timur others strictly Maduran.

So what is it East Jawa, Madura or a combination? :confused:

Erik, this is exactly the same style as your topengan posted on 18 Sept.

Yes, the mask on the ones you have just posted is larger, but this is only due to the fact that your example is a more recent one, and consequently more refined. The copied photos you have just posted are older, the topengan was probably added to the wrongko later, and made to fit: your own example was constructed as an original entity.

In fact, I do have one similar to the ones you have just posted. I`ll photo it and post pics when I get a chance.Look at the wrongko itself:- it is exactly the same in your example, and in the ones you have just posted. The difference is only that in these older ones the topengan is not as neatly mated to the wrongko, but thrown together, almost as an after thought.

Have a look at the bright yellow wrongko with no pendok , in my first post of images. This is a good grass-roots example of this wrongko style. This is an old, old wrongko. It is one of the first keris I ever owned, and I have had it for about 50 years. When I bought it the atasan was in three pieces, the gandar had massive holes in it, and it was suffering from dry rot. What you see in the picture I posted is a total restoration.

As to where they originated.

In 1835 Cakra Adiningrat VIII of Madura gifted a very fine example of one of these keris to King William I of The Netherlands. I feel it is extremely unlikely that a Madurese ruler would present a Balinese keris to the sovereign who was effectively his overlord.

The Balinese style of dress that is found in Madura has a legend attached to it. Broadly, it is this:- a ruler from Bali set out invade Suminep. He reached the coast near Suminep with his troops, and began to march towards Suminep. The Suminep ruler heard of his coming, circled around behind him, smashed the boats, then encircled the Balinese invader.The ruler of Suminep gave the Balinese the option of swearing allegiance to him, and recieving land and a local woman as wife, or not swearing allegiance to him, and dying. The smart money took the oath and settled down as citizens of Suminep.These Balinese/Madurese retained their keris dress.

Over the years this dress has retained, or maybe developed very, very minor variations to the Balinese dress we see in Bali, generally it is very , very slightly more "compressed", and has a "fatter" appearance.
In fact, the keris presented to William I has a wrongko that is almost to Balinese proportions, but it is betrayed by the handle, which has the proportions of the Bali/Madura style, and it does not carry a pendok of Balinese style, manufacture, or proportion.

On all these Bali/Madura topengans I have yet to see a single one that has a pendok of Balinese proportions. All I have ever seen have pendoks with the proportions of a Jawa/Madura keris. However, I think it reasonable to assume that if people of Balinese origin used this style of keris dress in Madura, it probably had an original model back in Bali, where they came from.Be this as it may, I have yet to see a keris of this style with a Balinese pendok, or with a blade that is inarguably Balinese.

Based upon my personal observations, I am of the opinion that this form of dress is a style that was used by people of Balinese origin, living in Madura. I can find no reason to give it an East Javanese attribution, and although a similar style may have existed in Bali, I have yet to see this style of dress mated with gandar and blade of definite Balinese origin.

Granted, at first look they are exactly the same style as my post of Sept. 18th and Alan's on Sept. 17th.

Now, lets take off the topengan off all the wrongko's and imagine just the form of the wrongko, this is where I see a slight detail in the format to which they are carved, it may not have any importance at all, but look closely and you will find the left side of the wrongko when looked at from the front, appear to have less round appearance in the first three photos. And more round appearance in the last two photos.

I tried to illustrate this by drawing a straight line on the left in the photos, I may very well be wrong but I see a distinct difference in the form of the wrongko on the left side. It may be minute but then again the most insignificant difference in the world of Keris may have major implications.

Maybe they are just minor variations, or perhaps even optical illusions from being on a slight angle while being photographed, I just didn't want to ignore the difference. :)

Yes, I understand what you are saying Erik, but I personally think that what we are looking at can be accounted for by craftsman's variation within the same style---or by age.

For instance, that one of mine , as I mentioned, was a complete restoration, and it was very, very sad before I did it. I was probably only 18 or 19 when I restored that wrongko, and I had absolutely no idea of the importance of minor angle variations or contours. All I wanted to do was repair it and make it look OK. I may have altered any number of miniscule details on this wrongko when I sanded it down.

Along the same line of argument:- that one of yours is pure, clean, crisp and immaculate. Absolutely pristine condition. What might it lkook like if it had been repolished a few times, as is fairly usual with an old wrongko that has been given good use.

The one that was gifted to King William is actually slightly elongated, a bit like a Bali atasan, but the handle with it has the compressed "fat" look of the Bali/Madura handle.But that wrongko dates from nearly 200 years ago. Maybe the style we see now is how these developed in an alien environment.

There is no doubt at all that a very minor detail in a wrongko, a handle, or a blade can alter the name by which something should be known, but in respect of these Bali/Madura wrongkos, I personally am quite satisfied that they are all the same type, and the minor differences that we see are just variations in the hand of the carver, slight variations due to the period when carved, or even due to wear.

Thanks for the interesting reading.
The "Tammens" Topengan is in my collection so I have enclosed two pictures of it, from the front and from the back. Additional pictures of it could be found in my gallery at
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

I am a bit surprised on Alan's statement that:

"Based upon my personal observations, I am of the opinion that this form of dress is a style that was used by people of Balinese origin, living in Madura. I can find no reason to give it an East Javanese attribution, and although a similar style may have existed in Bali, I have yet to see this style of dress mated with gandar and blade of definite Balinese origin."

This is very new to me, that's one of the reasons I enjoy this forum, and I would appreciate if Alan could develop this statement so I can understand it better?

In Karsten Sejr-Jensen's book, Den indonesiske Kris, there are three Topengan.
The first one is clearly Maduran, page 137 fig. 94, with a Maduran Ladrang sheath and a Maduran blade.
The second looks Balinese, page 141 fig. 96, with a Balinese Gayaman sheath and Balinese blade.
The third one also looks Balinese, page 142 fig. 97, with a Balinese Gayaman sheath and Balinese blade.

In the Staatliches Museum für Völkerkunde in Dresden there is an East Javanese Keris Topengan with Nyamba hilt and same kind of Gayaman sheath as mine.

In Tropen there are two Keris Topengan described as Balinese, Gayaman sheaths and on the second one you can see its blade, that could be found in their collection database.

http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/bas...=&culturenode=

and

http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/bas...=&culturenode=

Not having a fraction of Alan's knowledge and experience of Keris myself I am curious on his views if these Keris are in fact all of Bali-Maduranese origin?
Or maybe they were produced in Bali, or East Java, and then later have had the Topengan attached to the sheath in Madura?
Do you think my Keris isn't of East Javanese origin but Maduranese and why?

Also I have noticed that none of the Keris above has the typical Balinese "ring" mendak and selut?
But I don't have the knowledge to see if the mendak and selut all are Maduran variations or an older Balinese or East Javanese style?

Michael

ANaga Sasra
VVV

For me your last pictures are all a combination of different style.
The handles are Bali style... also sarongs could be Bali style. Different is the pendok with kala: in my opinion it is from central or east jawa (it coud derive from kala majapahit terracotta/stones pattern).

I enclose some other photos just for more confusion:
the first is from Bezemer book "platenatlas" : Bali
The second is from P. Holstein book tav. XLIII : Bali or Madura
The third is from G. Vianello book : Surakarta
The last is from my collection: Yogja

Goodness gracious me!

What a flood of topengans.

I thank you both, VVV, and Marco for letting us see these images. I don`t think I have seen any of them.

Quote:-
I am a bit surprised on Alan's statement that:

"Based upon my personal observations, I am of the opinion that this form of dress is a style that was used by people of Balinese origin, living in Madura. I can find no reason to give it an East Javanese attribution, and although a similar style may have existed in Bali, I have yet to see this style of dress mated with gandar and blade of definite Balinese origin."

You should not be surprised, VVV.
I have stated an opinion, and that opinion is based upon what I have seen and heard to the present time.

It does not mean that it is necessarily incontrovertable fact, it does mean that it is my opinion in accordance with the present level of my knowledge.

This opinion can change at any time if I come into possession of new knowledge that adds to my present knowledge.

So let us look at these images and see if there is something there to alter my opinion.

Firstly, VVV's Tammens keris.
If I were to see the handle of this keris in isolation, I would classify it as Bali/Madura. The form and proportions do not look to my eye like a Balinese handle.
The blade does not appear to be Balinese.
The pendok appears to have been formed on a sanglon.I have yet to see an old Balinese pendok that has been made as a tube; normally they are made like a blewah pendok, and the face of the gandar covered with a slorok, then the pendok and slorok are glued in place with shellac or damar.Additionally, the pendok has a lis (collar), which is a very common feature on a Madura pendok, and something I have not yet seen on an old Bali pendok.
The uwer is similar to a Balinese uwer, but has a stem, probably made necessary to allow the handle to clear the topengan; the upper plate on the stem was probably necessary to keep the whole thing together.
I do not know what Mr. Tammens classified this keris as, but to me, this is a Bali/Madura keris. It is not pure Bali.

The first Tropen keris I really cannot see sufficient of to comment on.

However, I would be looking at the same indicators as I looked at with the Tammens keris:- blade origin, pendok design and fabrication, proportion of handle, uwer.Although I cannot see any detail in this picture, the overall form of the pendok does look to be more Balinese, and the slight squareness of the foot of the pendok could indicate construction in a Balinese manner.

The second Tropen keris does look to have a Balinese blade, however, it appears to have a Madura mendak. Again I cannot see sufficient detail, and again the pendok does seem to have a slightly more Balinese feel to it, but really, a little on the slim side for pure Bali.

A question in respect of these two keris:- does the Tropen have documentation for these two keris? Collected by whom, when, and where?

Coming back to the Tammens keris, VVV has posed the question as to whether it is East Javanese or Madurese.

Madura is a part of East Jawa. In the present day it is administratively a part of East Jawa, historically it has links with mainland East Jawa, and in the past rulers from Madura counted parts of mainland East Jawa as parts of their realm.Certainly, Madura is an island, but this does not make it a separate entity to the mainland. Indonesians refer to Indonesia as "Tanah Air Kita":- Our Land and Water. Within the psyche of people from this part of the world there is no distinction between water and land as comprising their homeland.The water is just there to allow easy passage to the land.It is all one.

So, is the Tammens keris Madura or East Jawa?

Clearly, it is East Javanese, originating from Madura, specifically, the kabupaten of Suminep.

In my earlier post I should have been more precise in my use of language and written "---mainland East Jawa---", rather than just "---East Jawa---".

Where else in East Jawa is there a tradition of a group of Balinese people living divorced from their homeland?

Yes, there are Balinese people around Banyuwangi, but these people are still attached to Bali, which is just across the strait. An hour away.They are not a separate colony.
Where else in East Jawa can we place it?
Malang? Kediri? Jember?Blitar?
If we wish to place it in or near some other major population center, we will need to come up with a strong argument to do so. I do not yet have the knowledge that would allow me to construct such an argument, but possibly somebody else may have.

If we give an attribution of East Jawa, Central Jawa, West Jawa, that is sometimes adequate, but if we wish to be a little more accurate, we need to look at point of origin: Surakarta (in Jateng), Malang (in Jatim)----and so on.

To address the images provided by Marco.

The image from Bezemer:- I cannot see sufficient detail to decide on the indicators of this keris. The mendak is Madura, the pendok seems a little too tapered for Balinese, the handle seems to tend to the Bali/Madura form. But honestly, I just cannot see enough to know the things I need to know.

The image from Holstien:- the blade is not Balinese, the form of the wrongko atasan is classic Bali/Madura, as is the handle, I am not able to see sufficient to guess method of manufacture of the pendok.

The Vianello image:- sorry, a dealer's montage.

The detail of a pendok on a keris in Marco's collection:- yes, we can find this motif spread over keris, and other art work, from many places in Indonesia, most especially so in modern work.

One thing that could be considered in deciding if we are looking at a Madurese or a Balinese keris is the physical size of the keris concerned.

Balinese keris are worn with the gandar tucked into the top of the sarung at the back, and the handle standing above shoulder height.

Madurese keris are worn tucked into the setagen around the waist.

A Balinese keris in its wrongko is normally long enough to allow projection above the wearer`s shoulder, a Madurese keris is about the same size as most Javanese keris, designed to be worn at the waist.

After looking at these images, I don`t think I have seen anything that will alter my present opinion, but if I were to handle any of these keris---except the "Surakarta" one--- I could well have some doubts raised in my mind.

What I would be looking at would be the way in which the pendok was fabricated, I would be looking at blade origin, I would be looking at handle and wrongko atasan form, I would be looking at the uwer, and I would be looking at the way in which the keris was designed to be worn.

In the Mangkunegaraan Palace Musium in Solo there is a display of Balinese keris.

These keris belonged to mercenaries from Bali employed as guards by one of the past Mangkunegaras.

The dress on these keris---all of which have Balinese blades--- is neither Balinese nor Solonese. It is a sort of cross between a Solo gayam and a Bali gayam, and not at all dissimilar to the basic form of the Bali/Madura wrongko.It is in fact a unique dress style, which I would tend to call Bali/Mangkunegaraan.