TWO MATCHLOCK MUSKETS for ID and COMMENT
 

These two pieces arrived today. Neither have been cleaned or touched so are in completely original condition. There is a little work to be done when I have time, but in the meantime I would like opinion as to origin.
The stock comb of the top one has a definite central ridge, while the other is almost flat with no ridge. The bore size of each is approx. 16mm.
So that things do not get confused I will call the top one #1 and the other #2 and will split the close up pics into separate posts.
Stu
.

#1
 

Here are close ups of the top one. Overall 1570mm Barrel 1140mm

#2
 

....and close ups of #2 Overall 1310mm Barrel 870mm

All I can say is that they are Indian .

Me too!!
And you will have a lot of work to clean them properly!!
:)

INDIAN TORADORS
 

HI STU AM SURE YOUR MATCHLOCKS ARE FROM INDIA,THEY ARE FROM RAJASTHAN AND ARE CALLED AS TORADORS .REGARDS

Hi Stu,
Indian matchlocks which I'm sure will look really neat after a little 'pampering'. More Ethno firearms have started to appear on the Forum recently which for me is a bonus so looking forward to further posts after aforementioned 'pampering'. Nice guns. :) :cool:
My Regards,
Norman.

Thanks for the comments....

Kubur.....nothing is achieved without some hard work....

Bandook.....While I agree that it is likely that these are Indian (or in the case of #1 maybe Indo/Arab), I do not think that they are Toradors. The shape is wrong IMHO. The Torador stock has a much more pronounced notch and (usually) a straight stock.

Norm......Thanks your kind comments. I will definitely post again once the TLC is complete. This may take a while as there is not always as much spare time as one would like to get these things done.
I have hopes that at least one of these will be a "shooter" though the bores look rather gnarly at present. Time will tell......

Stu

Salaams kahnjar1 Very interesting ... we used to call these parapet guns before we heard the term Torador which I think at least one of them is...Indian gear is so broad and I cant think of a nation that has more Ethnographic arms and Armour... I would call them variations on a Torador...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

No further comments regarding origin??? :confused:

Hi Stu. Now you have a couple of Torador types to go with the Flask. Off hand, I would agree that you have one variation of a Torador, with the other being Indo/Arab. I'll try to do some research to see if we can pin this down a little closer.
An interesting feature on #1: It still retains it's vent pick and chain, and a curious metal piece with a cone shape on one end that I've only seen once before. I've never really known what the purpose is for the cone shaped lever. Hmmm. I have to guesses: 1). Possibly used to extinguish a lit match? Or 2). Maybe to carry a small amount of tinder to make fire to light the match?
Any other ideas? Rick.

You mentioned that you might possibly consider making one into a shooter one day. I too have one in pretty good condition I plan on shooting one day. But it's three or four projects down the list. LOL :o
When I take the barrel off the stock it will hopefully solve a mystery I've had for many years. And that is: How are the breech plugs installed in these barrels?
I read somewhere that the breech plugs were "sweated" into the barrels and not threaded. Meaning that the breech plug was made slightly under sized. Then the barrel (only) was heated, the plug installed, and the barrel left to cool and shrink back to form a tight fit with the plug. Or possibly forge welded in place? But I really don't know. I really would not want to shoot one without a threaded breech plug. But I can have one made. We'll see when I get the barrel off.
Another curious thing about these barrels. Note the pronounced swelled area at the breech. I've read - and there's a YouTube vidio showing this - that the inside breech area of the barrel is shaped like a powder chamber. Similar to a European Hand Gonne. But I've never seen any real evidence of this. I'll have to try using my tiny drop light with a wire and see if I can tell. The barrel walls are so thick on these guns that I could just have the bore refurbished. But if there's a powder chamber, you would want to know exactly how much poser to fill the chamber, or it could be considered a bore obstruction while loading. Once I start on the project I'll post my findings.
Another interesting design feature of these guns is that the stocks are usually made in two pieces, or even three if the barrel is long enough.
Stu: Do keep us updated during your cleaning process when the time comes. Should be fun. Rick.

Hi Rick,
I agree with your comments that #1 is probably Indo/Arab, and the other a Torador type.
The restoration and cleaning of #1 is well underway and I should be able to get things finished in the next week or so. Will post pics then.
As you say the vent pricker is still present. The cone shaped piece is for holding the hot end of the match. As it has no holes in it, I am thinking it is to extinguish a lighted match. I have attached a pic of a matchholder on my Omani matchlock. You can see it is a double one....one for extinguishing, and the vented one for holding a lighted match.
Now to your comment about the barrel. There is no evidence that I can see, that there is a breech plug on mine....certainly not a screwed one. So IF one exists then I agree that it is probably shrunk in. I have not heard about these having a powder chamber. I am aware that these do exist, but have only seen them in pistols with a screw off barrel, and never on long guns. Once I get the bore clean enough, I will have a good look with my bore light.
Keep you posted as things progress.
Stu
P.S. Meant to say that the stock is in one piece apart from the "insert" behind the match hammer.

Hi Stu. That double match holder on your Omani gun is very neat !!! So yes, I agree that the cone shaped one on the Indian gun was likely used to extinguish the match.
If you get the barrel off one of the Indian guns, maybe you could post pics of it? I guess I shouldn't be so lazy and just take the barrel off mine. :rolleyes:
I simply can not figure out the parts/process used to seal the breech. :shrug:
If you go to YouTube and search under matchlock you will find the vidio of the Indian matchlock barrel where they cut the breech of one barrel to inspect it. And they test fire another barrel. Very neat vidio. But the don't mention how lthe breech was sealed. Anyway, between the both of us we will eventually figure it out.
Stocks: I've seen them with one piece stocks. Mine has a two-piece, but the barrel is 56" long. I once saw one that had a three-piece stock with the barrel being 72" long. LOL. Thanks again for your imput. Rick.

I already have one of the barrels off so will post some pics in the next day or so. As mentioned before there is no VISIBLE breech plug but that is not to say that there is not one that can not be seen. The barrel is smooth bore so it COULD have been drilled from the muzzle end. This method was used on European guns in past times.
Stu

Managed to find time so here are the pics of the barrel. The clean up revealed some nice brass inlays. The breech end of the barrel is very rough and appears to have always been this way as there is no sign of any smoothing. To me this suggests that there is no breech plug sweated in, but I may be wrong.
The side view shows a lug with a hole in it, below the rear sight. This is for a pin to secure the breech end of the barrel, which is otherwise attached only by barrel bands.
Stu

Hi Stu. Thanks so much for the pics !!! First time I've ever seen the breech area on these barrels. Ok. I see the stud for the pin that holds the breach area of the barrel to the stock. That makes sense. Yes, there does not appear to be a breech plug, as we usually refer to one. Looks like some type of iron is added to the breech end and then hammer or forge welded closed. Very unusual. I gu was this was done to eliminate the need for threads. But it looks like the hole in the breech is larger than the bore diameter, which would confirm my theory of the powder chamber. What do you think? Nice to see the brass decoration on the barrel after cleaning. What a surprise.
Well, I'm still on limited correspondence. They are rebuilding the new server computer at work today. So I won't be able to post additional pics of the Jazail o r another gun till Saturday. Again, thank you so much for these barrel pics. I have take the barrel off mine to see if it was built similar. Rick.

As stated before, I have extreme doubts as to the existence of a "powder chamber". IF one exists how does one see that it is filled to the CORRECT level?? On pistols with turnoff barrels one can see how full the chamber is...........
Stu

Lord Egerton of Tatton
 

In the book Indian and Oriental Arms and Armour by Lord Egerton of Tatton, is a nice plate with a number of Toradars.
I will see if I can post it.

Hi Albert,
I have that book and agree...nice pic in Egerton's book. There are other books also with nice pics of Toradors amongst other types. Tirri's ISLAMIC WEAPONS and Elgood's FIREARMS OF THE ISLAMIC WORLD to name a couple.
Stu

I suppose you have cleaned off the steel parts as much as you are going to.

If you intend to do more, might I suggest bronze wool along with automotive automatic transmission fluid?

Well, your favorite oil may be OK.

ATF is a cleaner, also. Let it soak for a few days.

Hi James,
Thanks for your suggestion. I have (I think) cleaned the steel/iron as far as I want to go without losing the patina. I had not thought of auto transmission fluid as a "solvent" but a good idea. I will try that on the other gun when I get to it.
I ALWAYS use brass/bronze brushes as they are of course softer metal than steel and do not scratch.
Stu

SUGGESTIONS FOR DISPLAYING /HANGING ON THE WALLS
 

HI MEMBERS HOW DO ALL OF YOU DISPLAY YOUR MUSKETS??
EVERY PROUD OWNER WOULD LIKE TO DISPLAY THEIRS ON THE WALL ,SO CAN SEE THEM REGULARLY ,SOME OF THE GUN HANGERS ARE EXPENSIVE ,ANY SUGGESTIONS
STU HOW DO YOU DISPLAY YOUR COLLECTION OF GUNS,CHEERS RAJESH
SOME OF MY GUNS DISPLAYED ON THE WALL,ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR DISPLAYING OTTOMON PISTOLS
REGARDS RAJESH

A bit off topic but I will give you my comments on what I see.....
The hooks are far too heavy and too visible. IMHO they detract from the look of the guns. I use L shaped cup hooks with neoprene tube slid over the hook part so that there is no metal to metal, or metal to wood contact. I use a size JUST big enough to hold the guns. Also they are in a SECURE place.
I would question the nature of what I see here, and I assume the readily visible placement of your display. SECURITY IS NON EXISTANT HERE.......
I have attached a pic of some of my stuff and you will see that the mounting hooks are virtually invisible.
Stu

Hi Stu. I'm finally back home and the computer is fixed. LOL Thanks for your PM correspondence.
OH! I so hope you are right that there is NOT a powder chamber. As you mention, it would be difficult to know how much powder to use. You would want to make sure the chamber is full. Otherwise the load could end up a bore obstruction. Maybe all of the larger breech area just contains the iron filler up to where the actual bore size begins? Hmmm.. But I think I know how to find out for sure. I'll use my tiny bore light with a wire and run it down to the end of the barrel and view. I have wood ramrods/cleaning rods that are 57" long and various sizes of cleaning jags. So I will run the rod down the barrel as far as it will go and measure the length of the inside of the bore versus the outside length of the barrel. This should tell me the amount of FILL there is in the breech length. Then I'll slowly run a snug cleaning patch down the barrel to see if the resistance is the same for the entire length. Or will the patch become loose at the breech end. I'll report back this weekend. Rick.

#1 Restored
 

Sadly not to be a shooter, but will look real nice on display. The bore is too pitted to risk firing, and I do not believe in sleeving unless the gun is to be used in competitive shooting. Anyway there are good modern made replicas for this purpose.......
I have not at this stage made a pan cover, but that will come in time.
Comments welcome.
Stu

HI STU PLEASE CAN YOU PUT UP CLEAR PICTURES OF YOUR HOOKS WITHOUT THE GUNS AS I CANNOT MAKE OUT,IF YOU CAN EVEN JUST PUT UP THE HOOKS YOU USE IT WILL BE GREAT,CHEERS

Hi Stu.
Well, that gun cleaned up really nice! Good job! And finding the brass decoration on the barrel is a bonus. Sometimes we never know whats under all the crud till we clean it. LOL. Should display well in your collection.
The pan cover is missing on mine also. Seems that most of them are on these guns. I too plan on having one made. Here are a couple of pics of original pan covers in case you're interested. Rick.

Hi Rick,
Thanks for your kind comments re the clean up. As you say it's a great surprise to find nice bits under the crud. #2 also has some barrel brass work visible, and this time all the barrel bands are also brass. On #1 only the bands at each end are brass with the three middle bands being iron.
Thanks for the pan cover pics. Seems these bits easily fall off or maybe they are removed by the owner so as to facilitate fast shooting. Nothing would be more embarrassing (or fatal) than to pull the trigger on a closed pan! Still they are real easy to make...just some careful shaping to fit the pan.
Stu

Egerton
 

For the forumites who don't have the Egerton book.

Thanks Albert for posting this. Interesting that the stock shape of my #1 does not appear here.
Stu

Thanks for posting this. I'll have to get this book. And a couple others I still don't have. Rick.

Very neat matchlock muskets you have there.

Albert, which particular book are those pages taken from? I'll have to pick it up.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Book...26an%3Degerton
Here you go....

Re. breech plugs in toradors, this subject has come up a couple of times at meetings of the Royal Armouries Association. According to one of the curators a slightly oversized plug is made, the breech area heated to red, and the plug hammered in. It seems a bit unsafe to us, but the design lasted so must function well enough.

Hi David.
I believe that method of sealing the breech is correct. And it appears so when you look at the end of the breech. In effect, welding it closed.
If you Google "mughal musket" there is a neat You Tube vidio about these barrels where they actually cut the breech section. But there is a big question they do not explain: There is a school of thought that the breech section of these barrels have a slightly larger "powder chamber" at the breech end, similar to a European hand gonne. While others believe the bore is the same size for the full length with just a heavier breech area on the outside to accomodate heavier loads. Honestly, I don't know.
By coincidence, I have a Torador I plan on making into a shooter. The barrel is in good condition, but something is lodged in the bore near the breech end - but it is NOT loaded. So I plan on having the plug drilled out and a new threaded breech plug made while having the bore burnished smooth. I'll take good photos along the way and will be able to study the open breech area and take measurements and will finally be able to answer the question.
For some reason this question of the breech area of these Torador barrels has bugged me for years. It's on my near term "to do" projects list. LOL I'll eventually report back with my progress.
Rick.

Rick,

What you feel at the breech is very likely the powder chamber.
In these muskets the chamber is Smaller bore than the barrel, so what appears an obstruction, is just this narrower piece.

The old Hand Gonnes were the same, with a narrower bored breech, initially made that way so the serpentine powder didn't get too compressed, as if it Was compressed it wouldn't ignite.

Question for you if I may;
does the stock fit under the arm when aiming?
I have never had hold of a torador, so am in the dark!

I recently purchased a couple of barrels and a torador needing parts, but they are still in the UK at present.

Thanks for your time Rick,

Best wishes Richard.

Hi Richard,
....so this raises an interesting question, as Rick, I believe, is of the opinion that the so called powder chamber is LARGER than the bore. I have no proof to the contrary, but do not believe that this would be "safe practice". Any guns with VISIBLE powder chambers such as screwoff barrel pistols have a smaller powder chamber than the bore diameter.
The outcome of this "mystery" will be interesting.....
As far as how a Torador is held for firing I guess is up to the user, much as it would be with modern firearms....some hold the stock to the shoulder and some to various points of the upper arm. Depends on what is comfortable and produces the right result.
Stu

Stu,

Re the powder chamber;
Yes, I know for a fact some are a smaller bore than the main part of the barrel, But! ...India is such a large and diverse country, I am quite sure that a Larger chamber may also be encountered, in fact I seem to remember seeing such a diagram at one time.
This was a long time ago, but recall that said powder chamber held an awful lot, like over 200 grains (7 drams) or so.
Whether smaller or larger, it appears a carry-over from the original introduced arms it copied, and not necessary with corned powder.
Re. breechplug;
I too have heard that these were heated and for lack of a better term, forge -welded in place.
If I am to fire mine when it gets here, I will do it by remote for a start, until I feel confident nothing is going to come adrift!

One barrel I have, has had a peg inserted in the breech from below to take the recoil. This has come away and needs to be replaced.

How the piece is held;
Thanks for that!
I have seen toradors that were too long in the butt-stock to fit the shoulder, so wondered if they fit under the arm, Or, as some are very straight -stocked, wondered if they fit Over the shoulder!
Can I ask how Yours fit you?

Best,
Richard.

Hi Richard.

The gun has both front and rear sights. So the gun was designed to be AIMED, not just pointed as is the case with a front sight only. What's interesting, is if I bring the butt stock up to the cup of my shoulder in the normal manner, it's easy to aim. But muzzle heavy due to the long barrel. (This was easier to do 40 years ago LOL). But, if I cup the butt stock under my arm pit, it's also easy to aim, and steadys the barrel easier. So it would be easy to aim either way. Which makes me wonder if they were designed this way? Interesting.

Breech Area: The bore inside the muzzle end measures about .59 caliber (about 15mm). The OUTSIDE of the rear of the breech area measures 1 9/16" (about 39.69mm). I used a piece of wire and put it through the vent hole at the breech. And the INSIDE of the breech area measures about 1 3/16" (about 30.16mm). The breech plug ends just behind the vent hole, which would be normal. And the plug seems to be about 1/2" (about 12.7mm) deep into the breech area.
So what this tells me, is that the breech area is definately LARGER than the bore diameter. My best guess at the moment, is that the inside of the breech area is tapered, or some what cone shaped, and tapers smaller as it meets the standard bore diameter. Hmmmm. The only way to know for sure is to drill out the plug material. Which I will do. I plan on taking the barrel off this afternoon. I'll take good pics of the breech before sending it off to the gunsmith.

If the breech area is, as I suspect, cone shaped, this will present some potential ballistic and cleaning issues I won't cover at the moment. Just have to wait and see wnat the interior looks like. Wish me luck. LOL :o
Rick.