A Nice Takouba just finished on eBay....Euro blade?
 

A very nice bladed Takouba (apparently European...but I'm not so sure) and scabbard just finished on eBay. Had a really good feeling about this one......Bid slightly too little too late :mad: ....feel it was well worth the money......The Arabic script is interesting.... should have bid more :( .
What do you think ?

was it this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=220036874164

Katana

That looks like a locally made blade to me. What makes you think it's European?


Lew

<shrug> Meh ..., looks local to me too .

The blade looks local to me. I think you were right not to go any further. The handle was very scruffy. These are common, save your money and get a better one, maybe pay a little more. In my opinion some of these are far to highly priced.

Thanks Mmontoro yes it is ......It was rather late when I posted this thread...got a bit forgetful.... :o

I was sceptical about the blade being European.... no maker's marks for instance....but still thought it nice. I agree the hilt was disappointing, I am sure that if it was a 'valued' Euro blade the hilt would also reflect this. The seller states that it is European.......there does seem to be a culture of the 'lost crusader' swords rehilted as Kaskara (more so) and Takouba, I think the seller may have 'enticed' interest by placing Kaskara in the title....oh....and the arabic script would have helped too ;)

Images added for future searches :)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3358

I dont want to appear to be a hypocrite :D

Can anybody tell me with a real argument why this blade is not European?
Can they tell me which part of the Africa was ever capable to produce a thick blade with 2 real fullers, maybe the Tuareg blacksmiths :) .
Has anybody seen a Tuareg sword with European blade that had the maker mark still on it? I have not seen on any of the 30-40 swords that passed my hand such blade or in any book.
The Tuareg made blades are flat and very elastic usually with 3 scratched decorative fullers in the way Kaskara blades are but much lighter or with no fuller at all, the ones made in Northern Nigeria in the 20th century.
This blade is 1/8 inches thick and very heavy.
Gentlemen please open your books and let me know, not only what you feel it might be but what you KNOW it is :) .
artotec

I am curious as to why you doubt the smiths ability. Just look at the Massai spear, produced by smiths many hundreds of miles from any permanent building. These swords may well have been produced from any of the many sahal towns that included such things as universities and the like. making a sword cannot be that hard :eek: .

Hi Arotec,
I hope you dont mind me posting the pictures.
I said that I wasn't certain about the blade.....but I agree that if it is local manufacture it is a very good one. When I researched Takouba's ...my information was that Euro blades were rare....less so with the Kaskara. Generally (according to the articles I read) , Euro blades carried makers marks and commonly blades of 'local' manufacture 'imitated' these marks as a sign of quality.On that basis there was a real POSSIBILITY that this was not European. I agree with your comments about Takouba blades usually being thin and springy.
I actually 'stayed up' to bid on this sword, which I did, just under the selling price and was unable to increase my offer in time. I posted this because I was uncertain about the blade and was surprised that the price was not higher.......which started me thinking that others disagreed with the European provenance for the blade, (bearing in mind they are rarer). Also the hilt decoration seemed average.....many of the hilts on Euro blades seem to have more adornment....
I hope you have not taken personal offence as no offence was meant...this was a genuine question to further mine (and others reading these threads) knowledge.

There are no swords with real fullers in Africa. Every time a sword has fullers for instance on the Nimcha swords they are European. There is no indication they discovered the use of fullers. In 19th century or earlyer the Tuareg swords would have been in large percentage European, see Spring and others. The use of the usual 3 fullers on the blade is imitation and tradition and not REAL use like in European perception to make the blade lighter.

Zalmoxis

Thickness of the blade is not an indication that a particular blade is European.
There are a few things to look for such as overall appearance Euro blades have a diiferent look to them they have a cleaner look to them with well defined fullers be they one wide one or three thinner ones and they have a stiff springiness to them. The smiths in that area of Africa can make blades from old machetes, sheet steel, rebar or truck leaf springs which would be the best choice to me. It really does not take that much effort for a good local smith to bang out and spring temper these sword blades I am sure that this is a cottage industry in many parts of West Africa. BTW I have a very nice takouba with a thick blade but it's no Euro blade. The blades pictured below are late 17th century or earl 18th German trade blades that were used on many kaskara and takouba.

Lew

No offence and I don't mind the pictures. I think many times the leather on the hilt would have been replaced many times. Having leather over metal the leather would have been very quickly destroyed and maybe replaced many times. I think maybe that was the case with this one. I think that was one of the best I have sold ever but is just my opinion, because I favor weapons that have actually been used and not just collected of the hand of the makers in new condition.The embossed leather was very old and detailed on the sheath. The blade was unusually heavy on this sword so the use of fullers was a real use to make is lighter. I might be wrong again: I want to see a Takouba with European blade and maker mark. Spring believes that European blades were common??

This is a local blade, the drawing is the cross section. I just do not get this doubt on African smiths. Some of the finest knife steel I have seen is African. Okay maybe not as big lumps, perhaps it is a case of never mind the width feel the quality, not never mind the quality feel the width :D .

I still think the best piece you have is that spear:-).
You have a Kaskara there with a nice blade.
I have never seen a Takouba with makers mark. Again I might be wrong but your blade might be European too. Out of many blades I have sold there were only 2-3 that have this kind of fuller and were heavy. Prior to 1900 when he Tuaregs were defeated by the French their power over the desert was almost absolute. They were requesting fees from caravans. Why not pay them with cheap blades from Europe? Again Spring says they have many European blades.

Well I am not at all sure that the last sword i post is Tuareg. This form of weapon has a far wider range the the western Tuareg, right into sub tropical regions i believe.

Ok

What do you think of this blade?

Tim I don't think that is African also, just my opinion. I think the North African blacksmiths were not as skilled as the ones from Congo.The Nigerian and Mandingo swords and dagger are poor in any way the old one also. I admire the old Flyssa of the Berbers my favorite from North Africa, but they never used fullers. They were responsible many times for the very nice Tuareg all steel with brass inlay javelins.

First I think that is a beautiful piece.
Second again who could have made such a nice piece?
There are very nice spears in the Sudan area and Abyssinia that remind me of this sword.The mid rib especially. Is it sharp how old do you think the blade is? Do you have a better picture with the blade?
I have never seen something similar.

Still fighting my corner
 

:cool: This is a super piece of flexable steel and unargueably local. To my mind African blade are often overlooked. I just think some people cannot understand them.

Which sword are you refering to mine or Tim's? My sword is Kirdi Cameroon/southern Nigeria and southern Chad.

Lew

Yes I have had a Takouba couple of weeks ago with and extremely flexible blade and very sharp, also light of local manufacture. I am not the one to not understand the African blacksmiths what I really collect is African spears. I have a lot of the maybe over 100 and they are surprising.
By the way Lew that blade looks like a Lia spearhead also I just remember, the midsection.

To yours Lew:
First I think that is a beautiful piece.
Second again who could have made such a nice piece?
There are very nice spears in the Sudan area and Abyssinia that remind me of this sword.The mid rib especially. Is it sharp how old do you think the blade is? Do you have a better picture with the blade?
I have never seen something similar.

And Now I think it looks a lot like the midsection from a Lia spearhead.

I am familiar with their simple iron throwing knives but I have never seen such nice sword.I would have never gussed. Where did you find the reference for it? I mean what book?

And Tim you have 2 very beautiful Tuareg spears I am filled with envy:-)

click!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=kirdi

Lew

The hilt looks the same but your blade is very well made. It also reminds me of Vere people from Cameroon with the fancy bronze hilts, the shape of the blade is the same. Have you seen other examples?

Never seen one do you have pictures? Btw I checked Artzi's website and he mentions on a few that they may be takoubas with European blades but this is the nicest one I have seen next to Lee's takouba that is :)

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=889

Lew

Lew I think I solved the problem. It is not Kirdi, they have primitive throwing knives of poor blacksmithing.
The people of Bali from Cameroon.
Their swords are very rare.
The pieces from the pictures are 1890. Your sword must be older as the blade is so well made.

Look at this they agree with me on that kind of blade:
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=355

I think there are no European maker marks on any Takouba because:
1. the tuaregs would have erase the marking and place antimagic symbols as they do in most.
2. The blades sold to the Tuareg would have been like the Kalashnikovs for Taliban's: they would be use to kill Europeans passing the desert, caravans with Venetian traders etc :) Why would you want your blade to be recognize :)

Here is my takouba similar blade but with three fullers.


Lew

It is very nice I think is a beginning of the 20th century one. If it has as you say a heavy blade it might be European. The Tuareg blade are very thin and flexible.
Do you agree with me that your nice sword is Bali? They had skilled blacksmiths capable to come up with that blade plus their swords are very rare and that would explain why I have never seen one.

Hi guys, what do you think about this one? blade is european or african?

Flavio nice Kaskara...IMHO the blade looks to be of local manufacture...the grinding marks would have been polished out in a Euro blade.

The fuller running down to the point may suggest the tip of the blade may have been broken off during its life.

Hi katana, the grooves seems to be forged, not grinding. Anyway also to me the blade seems to be of local manufacture. Yes, could be that the blade was shortened.

Three nearly identical blades
 

Well what about this then? Two kaskaras (one mine, not pictured) and a Scottish basket hilt with near as dammit identical blades. Engraved decoration so similar I think they must be from the same source. Pictures and a little bit of input over on SFI.

1st posting

ELJay's input

Sorry for the myriad links to see all the pics. Unfortunately I lost the photos of mine in a computer crash, but it really is almost indistinguishable from the other two except for a greater degree of wear.

Anyway, not that I doubt Artzi & ElJay (too much :) ) but if these are North African made blades, how many did they produce to make it likely I'd see three within as many years? I can accept a Solingen cutler banging out industrial quantities of blades (witness the thousands of very similar JJ Runkel retailed Georgian military blades still around). Was bladesmithing in North Africa similarly grouped into a few large volume producers? I know shallow fullered blades struck with crescent moons are very common but perhaps naively, had imagined that every local smith would have his variant of the stamp.

Paul

Sadly I cannot add a kaskara pic as I swapped the last one I had for two more rare Mahdist weapons. My observances have been that the half moons do vary. To me the basket hilt sword does have a European blade. The other indeed looks very similar but I would agree that it is probably made in Africa. I believe it is possible to discern a difference in the steel and the workmanship most obvious at the forte. Being able to handle the sword would be how oppinions were formed with confidence. I could also be wrong :shrug: .

Hi Paul,

I have seen a number of German blades made for takobas, kaskaras and gurades mounted with baskethilts. I have been able to trace a couple back to where the two met. They were modern creations from parts. Your blade is a Kaskara blade. The snake is a Persian influence on these weapons, I don't know its significance. I would think it is unlikely that your blade and hilt started their life together.
I think the Oakeshott warning about medieval swords with kaskara features also applies to the modern swords as well.

Hope this helps.
Jeff

Thanks Jeff.

Just to clarify, I don't own the basket hilt. I thought about buying it because my first reaction was that it was genuine and I loved the match between it and the kaskara I do have. Then the doubts started...

Happy holidays all.

Paul