Keris - javanese blade in Kedah mounts?
 

Dear All,

I would much appreciate your thoughts on this one. Actually quality/state of preservation of the blade wasn't acceptable for me, yet the whole was so interesting, that I decided to go for it.

The blade is 32,5 cm long, pesi 5,2 cm. If pesi was cut, it happened a long time ago, there are no signs of this procedure left. The blade fits perfectly in the sheath, at the mouth of the sheath as well as in the length.

There was a lot of rust between blade and Gonjo, Gonjo has been pushed down about 1 mm down the Pesi.

The mounts becouse of the finial (buntut) could be atributed to Kedah (this sultanate interests me more and more; I would like to open a separate thread on Keris from there). Sampir is made from black, very dense wood (Kenaung?).

My general question is the provenance of the blade: is this an older javanese blade, or could it perhaps be an old peninsular blade, perhaps a proto-Malela blade? I am really interested in all aspects of "this is so, becouse" regarding it.

My thoughts are:

the pamor looks Javanese;

the blade in current state is to short for a Javanese blade, as is the Pesi;

Ricikan look very Javanese, yet the protruding tip at the Gandhik side of Gonjo is perhaps a little bit strange.

As I said, I am interested in every aspect regarding this keris.

More pictures:

Compaired to some of you guys I know almost nothing about keris and I unfortunately can't help you, but I wanted to say that I really really like it - it really touches me in a way that few keris do. The dapur (that's the shape, right?) has a great smoothness to it, very graceful. The carved groove in the middle, which I don't know the name of, fits in really well too! The ivory hilt is just icing on the cake. :)

Cheers and enjoy, - Thor

Is it elephant or whale btw?

Hello Gustav,

very interesting keris, congrats! :) Not sure if the blade is javanese. :shrug: I see also Madura and Minang features, or I am wrong? Can you post pictures from the blade alone that we can see the pesi?

Thor, handle material is clearly hippo ivory IMHO.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,

I am missing the typical spots along the crack - hippo has been quite commonly used with peninsular and Sumatran hilts though. Maybe some more pics could help, Gustav?

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

I think that I see exactly this at the 5. picture from the up. Maybe Gustav can confirm.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Gustav,

Congrats, nice score! I also do like the selut: quality seems quite above average!


The blade doesn't look bad to me - quite some substance left, it seems?

IMVHO the ricikan look a bit rudimentary and were possibly never up to Jawa kraton quality standards though - however, this picture might change if you hypothesize major loss due to edge corrosion/repair...


Would also like to see the pesi! ;)


To me the crosspiece looks like a somewhat later replacement - how does it look inside?


Are you sure this isn't dyed wood?


It's not a Malela blade. I believe Detlef may be up to something: size and dhapur would fit quite well with Minang Kabau esthetics; also a wavy gonjo and Javanese-inspired ricikan (and pamor) are not that rare with Minang keris.

I wouldn't be surprised if this were a N Malay keris blade crafted with heavy Minang influence. Expat Minang have had quite a bit of social/political influence regionally (in Negri Sembilan).

Regards,
Kai

Thor, thank you for the enthusiastic comments. Here a good source for names of different features on a Keris blade:

http://kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

Thank you very much for your comments, Detlef and Kai. Regarding the everlasting question "hippo or elephant", I must admit, I gave up this subject a time ago. May be I am not talented enough for it :) . There is a line of dots (or more precisely, a few dots on a line), which are not so distinct as on another hilt I have, which is sea ivory for sure.

A good thread regarding ivory:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=ivory

Tomorrov I will take a few more pictures of hilt and Pesi.

Kai:

the Ricikan was never Javanese first class standard on this blade for sure. This is an average blade.

Pesi: tomorrow, if it's not snowing.

Sampir: this was my suspicion also, before I received it. The wood is very dense; its quite dark, black where the oiled blade touched it, and it surely is old.

Blade: I never said, it is a Malela blade. It has Pamor. What I ment is:

IF it isn't a Javanese blade, IF it is a N. Malay Peninsula blade, and IF it is an older one, this MAYBE could be a form, which participated to the development of Malela blades. I feel something like this looking on the famous Paul's 13 Luk Malela blade, which is more on Javanese side then most Malela blades (Poyuhan, lack of Bugis type Gandhik), and which perhaps shares a few superficial similarities with my village quality specimen.

I think, you and Detlef are wright about certain Minang traits. Yet I also suppose, the Minang Keris (which is a deep mystery for me) was influenced or created by a Javanese form. And perhaps Peninsula was reached by both forms, this particular Javanese and Minang? Speculations, speculations...

Read these two threads.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14882
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4802

Here are the pictures of the hilt and Pesi.

Thank you for the links, Henk. May I ask you to explain your points please?

Hi Gustav! Thank you so much for the diagrams with the keris nomenclature - they have been added to my ever growing library. :) Regarding the material of the hilt, I would need sharper pictures to comfortably be able to give you my opinion on it, so I'll just say that I think it looks beautiful. I am really a sucker for stained ivory and your hilt has this wonderful warmness to it.

Hi kai, I see the little row of spots that you mention. I've heard before that hippo ivory should have such spotted lines, but never more than anecdotal information. Do you by any chance have a reference in this regard? I would love the chance to seek out the source.


Cordially, - Thor

Gustav, I am quite comfortable in saying that this blade is not from Jawa nor is it from Madura. Some of the characteristics do have a Madura appearance, but overall there is too much variation from Madura for it to fit this classification.
I do not wish to speculate on origin, but I do have a keris with very closely similar material and blade garap, ie, discounting the work in the sorsoran, and it was collected in Patani around 1920

Alan, thank you very much for the clarification, I really needed it.

Hello Thor,

here a picture from a cross section through a hippo tooth where you clearly see the row of black spots. And now have a look to the picture Gustav posted.

Best regards,

Detlef

Thank you for posting the pictures, agree, the pesi (and the blade) don't look like a Jawa one. Pesi look like of some of my Miang blades. Maybe Kai have given the direction.

Regards,

Detlef

Actually, the pesi fits well within the parameters for both Javanese and Madura keris.

Hello Alan,

not to short and bulky?

For a full size, normal Surakarta pakem keris the tang should be between 7cm. and 7.5cm.

But there is a great deal of variation possible when we move away from Surakarta and into other parts of Jawa, other districts, other Kraton standards, villages with no real standards, other time periods.

Madura tangs often display a smaller diameter directly above the gonjo, and bear evidence of a punch being used to tighten the gonjo to the pesi, this keris of Gustav's appears to have a hint of this narrowing and there might be traces of a punch being used --- but this is not sufficient to over-rule the things that say it is not Madura.

This is a small keris:- it will have a shorter pesi than the norm.

Madura keris usually have a longer pesi than Jawa mainland keris (Madura is a part of East Jawa --- something many people tend to forget).

In a quality Javanese keris the pesi will be substantial. The reason people think of Jawa keris as having spindly pesi is because usually we only see very sub-standard Javanese keris and usually those keris are in poor to extremely poor condition. Good quality Javanese keris are not flimsy, especially if they are relatively recent, say within the last 200-300 years, and in good condition..

Alan,

thank you very much for this detailed execution.

Regards,

Detlef

Sorry for the late answer.

I explained in these links that in the Sumatra area the javanese keris was highly sought after. Sailors brought javanese blades back from their trading journeys and blacksmiths started making keris after javanese examples.

So, your keris could be a javanese keris. But it is also possible it is local made after javanese example.

Thank you for the reply, Henk. Exactly that was my starting position.

While i don't automatically agree with everything Mr. Maisey has to say, if there is one thing i do consider him expert in it is the Javanese keris, as he has made it a lifetime's study and is the only member here that i am aware of who apprenticed to a kraton mpu. So i am likely to accept his position stated in post #13 that this blade is not from Jawa or Madura. :shrug: :)

Henk, I have already stated that I am quite comfortable in my opinion that this is not a keris that was made in Jawa.

I am very seldom positive in my opinions unless I have good reason to be so, however, it is an opinion I have given, and any opinion from any person can be incorrect.

The link between various areas in Sumatra and Jawa is well known; the political links between Palembang and the House of Mataram is well known; the trade in Javanese blades throughout South East Asia is well known; the propensity of local smiths in areas outside Jawa to copy Javanese workmanship is well known. Nothing new in any of this.The trade in Javanese blades was well established by the 16th century, and is mentioned in the Book of Duarte Barbosa.

But when we look at a keris, we need to be able to do a lot better than just say:- "oh yes, its Javanese", or "oh yes, it could be Javanese".

We need to be able to say from where in Jawa it originated and at approximately what time. We need to be able to give it at the very least an approximate classification.

With the blade in question, although there are certain characteristics that have a Javanese quality to them, such as the gonjo, and a Madurese quality, such as the kembang kacang, the sogokan is not Javanese in nature, and especially the poyuhan is very uncharacteristic of Javanese garap. The pawakan is not characteristic of Javanese work, and the greneng, most especially the ron dha looks as if it has been cut by a blind man with palsy. It is terrible --- if we consider it as Javanese --- but for many of the other places where greneng and ron dha appear it is quite a usual representation. This is because in those other places the makers did not really understand the iconography of the greneng and the ron dha:- like virtually all people outside the pande clan, all they saw was a series of notches.

However, we can ignore all of that, and just look at the nature of the pamor and the exposure of the core of the blade. The way in which this has been done is something I have never seen in a Javanese blade, this has distinctly Bugis characteristics.

As I have said:- I have given an opinion, and any opinion can be wrong, but in this case I would need one hell of a lot of convincing that this opinion of mine is wrong.

Alan,

I'm very glad with your explanation. You put it just in the way what i have in my mind. I completeley agree with you.
Your skills and education in keris as your native tongue can nail this issue way better down than i can. If i have to write down what you did it would take me a lot of time more. Time is at the moment very limited for me.

I was a bit short in my answer and i'm very glad you gave the arguments i should have done.

Henk, if this is so: I would be very thankful, if you could find some more time and comment on this blade, which also looks Javanese and also is mounted in Kedah dress. I would much appreciate your oppinion, put in a few necessary words.

Needed to flip the pics to view keris in standard orientation... ;)
 

Hello Gustav,

Nice. :)
Looks again like a locally crafted blade to me.

Sorry for coming back to this thread late - will add more comments later. Please add a few pics of the whole keris for future reference, too.

Regards,
Kai

Gustav, is it possible to provide a clearer image of the greneng?

Kai, Alan, thank you for your answers. This Keris is not mine, it's depicted in both Jensens book and Krisdisk (chapter 10, page 32). Length of the blade 36,6 cm. Unfortunately no better pictures of Grenend there.

Thanks Gustav. Yes, I see what you mean.

Detlef, thank you for the picture. I'm duly aware that the interstitial zone of hippo tusks sometimes produce dark inclusions along the lateral margins, but similar "spots in a row" can be found in other types of ivory: The inner cementum of walrus or longitudinally along deep age cracks in tusks of the proboscids, for example. I was just hoping that maybe you had an academic reference up your sleeve to tie them to the hippo.

In general I think one should exercise care in assigning a source species to any ivory based on one character alone. -this goes x10 when we're doing it from photographs of course. :) I can recommend the article "Unusual appearance of Schreger-like pattern in Hippopotamus amphibius ivory" (Simms, 2010). -I don't agree with their conclusions, but their findings illustrate this point very well.


Best wishes, - Thor

Hello Thor,

Do you have any pics of such examples? The mottled areas of walrus make it usually less difficult to spot if the pieces are of reasonable size; while I have also seen spots with elephant, these seemed much less regularly distributed compared to hippo.

Thanks for the reminder - still need to search my wide sleeves... ;)

D'accord.

Here's the link !

Regards,
Kai

From the pictures I feel quite convinced that this hilt is made from hippo ivory as said by Detlef for the following reasons (not supported by any academic research but only practical experience):
. The dotted line is very characteristic of the hippo ivory and different from the age cracks of elephant ivory.
. Walrus ivory has a marble appearance if observed in cross view and this should reflect on the external visual appearance of the hilt, which is not the case.
. I have some doubts that walrus ivory was widely used for making kris hilts because it would involve trading links with Russia while it is widely accepted that the Bugis traded hippo and elephant ivory with East Africa, either directly or with the Omanis who controlled the area.
I refer you to the well-documented book from Wolfgang Schilling: "Faszination kris - Zauber des Materials" about the subject.
By the way I never observed any Schreger/ Retzius line in a piece supposedly made from hippo ivory...
Of course I remain open to discussion and am ready to change my mind if anybody can convince me otherwise :)
Best regards

Hello Thor,

sorry for my late reply. I also don't have any academic research/opinon for my point of view. My position is based on facts like explained from Jean. I also refer you to the book from Wolfgang Schilling who is a friend collector from me. Sadly it will be difficult to get the book, the edition was very small. :o
A 100% safe result will be possible only by DNA anlysis IMHO.

Regards,

Detlef

Attached are the pictures of a similar hilt also made from hippo ivory I think, please note that the crest and "nose" have been damaged. The piece from Gustav may have been dyed as normally hippo ivory stays very white even after a long time (I saw few exceptions though).
Regards

Over perhaps a few years now I have read the many and various posts and opinions on hilts made from supposedly hippo ivory, walrus ivory, this ivory, that ivory, and some other ivory. I've looked at close-up pictures of dotted lines that supposedly prove that the material is hippo ivory, I've looked at pictures of vague ivory grains that supposedly prove the material is some other sort of ivory. It seems almost everybody knows more about this exotic discipline of ivory identification than I do, so I have pretty much stayed out of the discussion.

However, it seems to me that somewhere, sometime during the last forty odd years of visits to Indonesia and long wandering conversations with collectors and dealers in keris and other objects in Indonesia, I would have heard some mention of hippo ivory. But I never have.

It seems that in my reading on historic trade links with the Old East Indies I would have somewhere stumbled across some mention of hippo ivory coming into what is now Indonesia. I never have.

The hilts that I see presented as hippo ivory seem to be almost universally described by dealers and collectors in Indonesia as "tulang ikan" = "fish bone", or "gigi ikan paus" = "whale tooth". I've never heard even the smallest whisper of "kuda nil", or "badak sungai" = hippopotamus.

Now, I'm not saying that this total absence of any acknowledgement by the people most closely concerned with keris, and most especially with the extraction of money from the trade in keris, is evidence that these hilts of supposedly hippo ivory are indeed, not hippo ivory. But it does seem strange that if the possibility is there, that these incredibly clever traders would ignore the chance to raise the exotica stakes a notch or two by throwing some hippo into the money mix.

So, is it barely possible that this hippo business is just another collector myth?

Where is the beginning and foundation for these claims that some hilts are made from hippo ivory?

Do we have any good, solid, incontrovertible evidence of just one hilt that is beyond the shadow of any doubt made of hippo ivory?

Or do we have opinions that choose to ignore the accumulated knowledge of the demographic most closely associated with the keris?

Quite frankly, I had never heard even the smallest suggestion that those poor old hippos in far away Africa had been contributing their body parts to the glorification of keris in Maritime South East Asia, until very recently.

I'd really like to try to understand how the whole thing happened.

Can somebody point me at an academic paper, or article, or report where an adequate analysis of the materials used in keris hilts demonstrates beyond any doubt that hippo ivory was used to create just one hilt? Or possibly some old trade inventories that list hippo ivory coming into Batavia or some other port in the Old Indies?

Dear Allan,

Interesting question.
Antique dealers and also antique magazines in the west more or less agree that the dotted line indicates hippo ivory.
But I must believe you when you say this term is not used in Indonesia.

Best would be to go to the source and check with the people making these hilts. Do they ever have pieces of hippo ivory in stock ?
Have you ever seen the raw materials in Indonesia which they use ? this would indeed be very intersting.

Best regards,
Willem

Dear Alan and Willem,
Thank you for your interesting comments and again I have no academic background nor proven evidence that these hilts are made from hippo ivory but wish to reply as follows:
. All the ivory hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw or own are either from Sulawesi or Sumatra/ Malaysia, so the Javanese or Balinese dealers or experts are not very qualified to identify them IMO.
. The trading between Bugis sailors and East Africa or Oman (which controlled Zanzibar and Tanzania ports until beginning of 20th century) was well established in the past, I will try to find more written evidence.
. The external dotted line is connected to the interstitial zone found in hippo ivory and not other species as far as I know.
. All the hilts supposedly made from hippo ivory which I saw are old (circa 100 years or more) and the hippo ivory trading with Indonesia vanished long time ago so I doubt that you can find any Indonesian hilt maker familiar with the materials nowadays (but probably in China).
. For those of you who like myself are familiar with such pieces, the materials looks and feels very different from the other ivory species from it high density, white colour, and very polished aspect, and it ages much better than elephant ivory for instance (no cracks). Spermwhale tooth ivory is also different because its colour is darker inside.
Well, this is my last attempt to convince you on the subject and I will welcome the opinion of experts. :)
Regards

Agree in all points with you Jean and know also what Willem write about hippo ivory. Never have seen a hippo ivory hilt from Java or Bali.

Regards,

Detlef

Hippo Teeth
 

I have seen numerous examples of Hippo Tooth for sale on gunbroker.com .
Usually from a Seller located in Florida . :shrug: