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Destroying artwork
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Not only warriors of ISIS destroy artwork. U.S.A. laws (about ivory) do the same. Look in what condition Bonhams auctioned weapons aged 200 and more years, from the Richard Wagner collection.
You can compare from their original state in the book "Oliver S. Pinchot, Arms of the Paladins, the Richard R. Wagner Jr. Collection" |
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Some more.
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The end.
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Horrific destruction for no reason.
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Vandalism.
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It's disgusting.
But I don't understand, if the ivory is more than one hundred year old, they cant do that... |
Bureaucratic hysteria
Senseless, gratuitous vandalism that will save no animals but which does stand as a monument to arrogant, incompetent, lazy regulation and lawmaking done from a 'politically correct' mindset.
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A couple of points:-
Bonham's should be ashamed of themselves for having anything to do with it. I wonder where the ivory is now? And do you know, you can still import ivory into the USA providing you have shot the elephant yourself! |
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https://www.antiquestradegazette.com...ntiques-in-us/ :mad: |
Horrible!!! :mad: :mad:
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Straightforward Common Sense and Political Correctness appear to be as mutually exclusive in the U.S.A. as they are here in Europe.
Regards, Norman. |
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these pictures demonstrate urgently the grandiose stupiditiy of men at its best!!
corrado26 |
What can we do with our own ivory-, walrus- and rhino - handled swords and daggers?
Is it safe to buy such items from foreign countries to be shipped here? What about shipping outside the U.S. ? Within the US? These stories open a huge can of poisonous worms for antique dealers and weapon collectors. |
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Oh well off to the Fun store for more ammo for the AR. |
It is truly ghastly to see such vandalism even if done with good intention. Destroying ivory to kill the market, prestige concept of the material is probably only happening in " western " countries. Where I think there is little demand for new ivory. This is hitting the wrong people. However I can understand the the no if,s and buts view.
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political correctness at it's work again.
i lost a few old ivory netsuke i bought in japan a couple decades back. US customs just took them. this thread's destruction is like defacing the mona lisa to avoid offending someone. |
This article covers some of the implications. I expect that these regulations will ultimately face court challenge as it is a seizure of the value of a person's property without adequate justification.
Obviously I do not at all believe the demonization of antique ivory is going to save any wildlife. Indeed Kenya's recent mass ivory burn was just stupid. Sell it though legal channels to where there is demand for big money and use the proceeds to combat the poachers. |
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How the hell do we always manage to wind up with people running the show that do things like this? |
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Anyone who wants to make politics their career should automatically be barred from doing so!!! |
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This is a terribly difficult subject and I do understand those with good and certainly laudable intentions who want to save rhinos, elephants, tigers, and other wildlife in jeopardy. Given the extreme losses we have been witnessing during the last decades, I could live with fairly drastic measures - if they really work and also take into account that antique cultural artifacts are a heritage of mankind that also desperately needs to be preserved from extinction, i. e. destruction. Regards, Kai |
The immeasurable stupidity as well as the blind following of the new 'politically correct" doctrine that lead to this is far more dangerous than just what is shown here. Unless something is done that will change this kind of thinking I am afraid of what might come next. Can you imagine if this were to become the norm what our museums might look like in the future? Not just the removal of offencive objects, ivory, edged weapons, but possibly the wanton removal and destruction of these items as well as anything else that might be deemed offencive in the eyes of the politically correct. The removal of the ivory on the items originally being discussed is not only the senseless destruction of objects of art, but of history itself.
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removed by me to 'not offend'.
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Rick, that vaccine is called :- REVOLUTION.
It works by destruction of the offending elements of the whole. These elements can be identified by their inability to act in a way that is in harmony with basic human rights. STORY Several months ago the man who is arguably the foremost authority on the artistic aspects of the Javanese keris, and who almost single-handedly was responsible for the re-birth of the keris in Jawa asked me if I would accept a gift from him. Anything you get for nothing must be good. Of course I said I'd be more than happy to accept his gift. The gift duly arrived. It was a number of very good ivory hilts. I rang him and thanked him profusely, and asked why he had given them to me. "Well Alan, I live in America, and I am very fearful that if it becomes known to the wrong people that I possess some ivory objects, my home will be invaded, the objects will be destroyed and I and my wife will be prosecuted. " The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. |
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He said he was going to "transform" America. :(
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Well, these examples shown here are a terrible shame and i do believe that something most definitely needs to be done to both protect these precious and beautiful antiques as well as the lives of elephants and other ivory bearing animals that exist in this world. This issue is very complex, but i certainly cannot see how the destruction of antique ivory can save the elephant from extinction.
That said, i do fear that we are being a bit too fearful of our own private collections. These laws are, for the most part, governing commerce. I do not see that the U.S. government is going to march into any museums anytime soon and destroy the vast collections of antique ivory artifacts that can be found there. Bonham auctioned these weapons which is how they fell prey to this ridiculous law that affects antique ivory as well as new. Despite the fears of the American collector who sent his ivory hilts to Alan for fear of confiscation, i have serious doubts that private collections are in danger...at this moment. I do think the collectors in all fields that do come in contact with antique ivory need to band together, sooner rather than later, to petition for a more just reading of current laws to ensure that antique ivory is not problematic for authorities in the future. I would also prefer that this thread stay both civil and non-political to avoid a disastrous result in the end. ;) :) |
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Which at some stage we, or our heirs, will do.
But buying from overseas dealers is getting dicier with each passing day. |
US situation
Could anyone please give a summary of the current regulations in the US and its states?
I know these go beyond the established international CITES measures (including practically banning import/export connected with any commercial transaction IIRC) but just haven't kept track... How about the status of the judicial challenge in California and possibly other states? Thanks a lot! Regards, Kai |
US - UK?
Hello Sylektis,
Thanks lot lot for bringing this case to our attention - not being my focus of interest I completely missed that these pieces got crippled and cultural heritage of mankind lost (and apparently destroyed)! It seems these examples were from the Bonhams auction on May 11th, 2016, at London. I really would like to know how this happened - did you contact Bonhams before the auction? Regards, Kai |
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Hopefully some very rich and powerful collector has to deal with this problem, that may be the only way we will ever get any help. |
David, the gentleman who gave me his ivory hilts cannot be thought of as a collector. Yes, he does have some small collections of various artifacts, but essentially he is a consultant in S.E.Asian art, his principal clients are museums and governmental bodies. He consults to museums, curates their exhibitions and writes accompanying material.
He has no faith at all that ivory artifacts held by museums in the U.S.A. will remain untouched in the long term. This is the reason he needed to find a safe place for his ivory hilts, he needed to move outside the reach of governmental bodies in the U.S.A. |
Looking at the situation another way. You have to ask why did the auction house carry on with the sale? You could see them as equal in the mindless vandalism. There motivation was money with obvious disregard for what is artwork. Had I been the manager I would have refused to take the objects in. There may be a black market for some very fine works but for most ivory pieces , who really wants to spend large sums of money on something you will loose on. Antique values can go up and down just like other investments. You can pass them on or swap them. If I was weathy enough to have pieces of the quality shown here I would donate them to a museum or university or give to a friend on my demise.
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THE ONES WITH THE JOB OF MAKING NEW CITES REGULATIONS AND LAWS DON'T CARE IF LAWS ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS OR ARE GOOD OR BAD. THEY JUST NEED TO KEEP CRANKING OUT NEW ONES TO KEEP THEIR JOBS SO THERE CAN NEVER BE ENOUGH REGULATIONS OR LAWS FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW. THOSE HIRED TO ENFORCE THESE LAWS ARE HIRED TO MAKE NO DISTINCTION BUT ONLY TO CONFISCATE , DESTROY, FINE OR PROSECUTE ACCORDING TO THE BOOK. SO FOSSIL OR ANTIQUE , CULTURAL OR MASTERPIECE MEANS NOTHING TO THEM IF ITS ON THE LIST THE LAW MUST BE ENFORCED. THE ZOOS WHICH HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A HAVEN FOR THE BREEDING OF ENDANGERED SPECIES ARE ALSO UNDER ATTACK TO FREE WILLY EVEN IF WILLIE CAN NOT SURVIVE IN THE WILD AND LOVES THE ONLY LIFE HE EVER HAS KNOWN. MUSEUMS ARE NOT SAFE FROM THEM EITHER. HUMANS ARE NOT THE MOST INTELLIGENT SPECIES BUT THE MOST MIXED UP. :(
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If not exported could the ivory, if not damaged, be given free to the buyer to reattach??
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Tim, are asking about the ivory taken from the items this post is originally about? If you are, once our government gets its hands on something you have a better chance of capturing bigfoot than you do of ever getting it back from them. :(
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