Were the chakram's only used by the Sikhs?
 

I am, at the moment, reading The Itinerary of Ludovico di Varthema of Bologna, who, from 1502-1508 travelled in the Arabic World and on the Indian west coast.

On page 46 and 47 Lodovico has come to the city of Cambay in Gujarat, and tells that Sultan Mahmud Baigara captured the city from the king of Gujarat about forty years earlier [ca. 1450]. He also tells that the city supply Persia, Tartary, Turkey, Syria, Barbary, that is Africa, Arabia Felix, Ethiopia, India, and a multitude of inhabited islands, with silk and cotton stuff, so it must have been a big city already then.

The rich Sultan often fights with one of his neighbours called the king of the Ioghe [Jogi], living fifteen days journey away. When the king of Ioghe is not fighting, he and his men go out begging, and when they come into a town they blow in small horns, so the citizens know they ‘would like’ to get something to eat. They don’t only have the small horns, they are also armed. “Some of them carry a stick with a ring of iron at the base. Others carry certain iron dishes which cut all around like razors, and they throw these with a sling when they wish to injure any person; and, therefore, when these people arrive at any city in India, every one tries to please them; for should they even kill the first nobleman of the land, they would not suffer any punishment becourse they say that they are saints.”
(see Stone page 168 “212 and page 422 # 27).

Does anyone know where the king of Jogi lived? They can hardly be from Punjab, as the author says it is fifteen day journey away, and that sounds to me, to be too far away.

I am guessing that, while the observer may have taken them for a distinct people, the name is simply a transliteration of yogi, i.e., the band was a group of people largely tied by religious practice, thus the customary begging.

You could be right, but why does he write that they live fifteen days journey away, and the they fought against the Sultan? To me this sounds as if it is a homogenious clan/sub clan, belonging at a special place.

Hi Jens, may i come in ?
It appears that the name, besides yogi as sugested by Dennee, could also be Jogues, and they are also depicted in Imagens do Oriente, watercolour XLVI. Resuming the various period chronists in the Codice introduction, they were sort of philosophers, pilgrims and beggars, wearing very little clothes, either a couple furs or capes of mended pieces of cloth found in the trash. They covered their bodies with ashes ( curi ), which they considered sanctifying.
Browsing on the term, we can read Della Vale ( 1586-1652 ) mentioning their settlement at Kadri near Mangalore ... which is very far from Cambay :o
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi...1:1:251.hobson
However there is a missing link here, as so far only the guys quoted by Warthema were said to use weaponry. Maybe as you say, they would be a special sect.
Fernando

I suppose that Jogues could also be a European transliteration, as many yogis/yogins could generally be considered philosophers/pilgrims/beggars. Any particular group might well be related by caste and geographical origin, it just may be that it is difficult to identify them with a particular spot or caste based on the name.

Yes you may Fernando, and you are very welcome. Plate XLVI it is, I should have thought of looking there myself.
I did not know Hobson, it is most interesting, and it seems as if Hobson has found the king. The fact that they, 80-130 years later, lived in another place called Kadri near Mangalore does not have to mean much, as someone else can have taken their land and they had to find new land somewhere else, but I agree with you that Mangalore is very much to the south compared to Cambay.
The reason why I brought the subject up was due to the mention of the weapons they used. Does anyone know how widely spread the use of the maze mentioned and the chakram was?

Denee, you may have a point, but from the way it is written I think the author writes about a specific place.

It could be that this weapon is older thand the foundation of Sikhs.
As an example, just consider this:
http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...9916store.html

Fernando, I think you are on to something right, as I too believe it to be a very old weapon. The strange thing is that the Sikh’s went on using it, but the other tribes/clans stopped using it. I also wonder why other early travellers does not mention it, as it must have been a very strange weapon to them.

Hi Jens,
Yesterday i have found the following definition of Chakram in a certain glossary:
chakra sharp-edged metal disc used as a projectile weapon by medieval and early modern yogis; also yogic term for each of the seven centers of energy in the human body; from Sanskrit chakram (wheel).
This is the link.
http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/c...1851688&ss=fro
All the best
Fernando

Hi Fernando,
Interesting link thank you. Did you know that the chakra is also called a quoit? So far I have seen three ways of throwing it decsribed, Egerton, Stone and the author of the book I am reading, all give a different way. The author of the book has seen them in use, so I expect his description must be correct, and Stone tells that a friend of his has seen them demonstrated, so his description must also be correct, but I don't know if Egerton ever saw them being used, he might have, but was the way they were thrown really so different in the different parts of the country?
Jens

Hi Jens found this reference to a similar weapon which seems to indicate that other variants existed before the Chakra....

"....The history of the Liang Dynasty of China (506-556) spoke of a kingdom called Po-Li to be found on the northern tip of Sumatra. This same kingdom was again mentioned in the history of Sui Dynasty (581-671). "The people in this land are masters at throwing a disk, about the size of a small mirror, whose edges are cerated and sharp, and in whose center a hole is cut. If they throw this weapon they never miss. The other weapons they use are much the same as those existing in China."

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=16&gl=uk

Hi David
It comes to mind that we can see these discs in action in Chinese fiction movies ... there is no smoke without fire.
Fernando

Hi Jens
"Killing two rabits with the same shot" ... or trying to answer both questions with the same source.

Here you will find, besides some info on its origins, a certain typology differentiating chakram from quoit, as well as mentioning three different ways of throwing this weapon.
http://www.flight-toys.com/rings/chackrum.html
Before reading this, i thaught that twirling them was a bit of a fantasy.
I also thaught that quoit was the western name for chakram.
Fernando

An interesting 17thc scene showing Yogis in battle using the chakram.

Maybe the 'stick with a ring of iron at the base' which is referred to could have been something similar to this.

Hi Fernando,
yes indeed, the Chinese produced an amazing array of very unusual weapons. :cool:

Quoits is a game, using metal rings to 'hit' a target (think 'hoopla'), however a number of sites dedicated to the game ...state that originally the rings were sharpened weapons dating back to the Ancient Greeks. Bearing in mind many sports were designed to keep your warriors battle ready. It makes perfect sense that skill with the 'disc weapon' would be maintained with 'friendly competion' during 'peace time'.

I have also read that the earlier examples of Chakra were more functional than later examples which became more ornate and symbollic. Many early ones had an 'aero foil' shape (in cross section) to aid accuracy and power. Some had small holes which 'whistled' as it flew through the air, which 'un-nerved' the opposing warriors.

David

Great elucidating picture Toshkhana. We can even see that they use the index finger to twirl and through the chakram.

Katana and Fernando, thank you very much for your research. It is very interesting that the charka has been taken centuries back in time and to the north of Sumatra. So either it started its ‘life’ far away from India, and the use of it was spread to other regions, or maybe it was known to a very big area very early.

Toshkana, the print you show is very instructive, and if it has been used as shown on the picture, it really must have been a very common weapon at one time. The charka on the stick mentioned could be like the one you show on the next picture, or it could be like the one shown in the upper right corner – thank you for your help.

Maybe not all have Stone on their bookshelf, so no doubt, have one around there neck – but that is quite another thing.

So here is what he writes about throwing a Chakram. “Egerton says, p. 128, that it is whirled around the finger and thrown with great accuracy and force as much as sixty paces. A friend of mine who saw them thrown at the military games at Rawal Pindi gives quite a different description of how it is done. He says that the thrower stands squarely facing his objective, takes the chakram between the thumb and first finger of the right hand, holding it low down on his left side. He then turns his body as to bring the right shoulder as far forward as possible and throws underhand with a full swing of his body. He also says that it is thrown with sufficient force and accuracy to cut off a green bamboo three-quarters of an inch in diameter at a distance of thirty yards”

Ludevico di Varthema writes that they “throw these with a sling when they want to injure any person”.

I don’t know if one method was more used than the other, but there seems to have different ways to throw it.


I have just seen that Rawal Pindi is in north west of Punjab.

I think something is missing from this thread. :)

The Chakram is in fact an extremely important weapon in the Hindu religion - it is the sacred weapon of the Hindu god Krishna, often used by him to execute his enemies. In texts such as the Mahabharata, Krishna is described as spinning the Chakram around his finger, and then releasing it towards the enemy. Other than that though, I have never encountered any reference about the Chakram being used by any other Hindu gods or heroes. In the minds of the average Hindu, the Chakram is closely associated with Krishna, and not Sikhism. What I do not understand though is why the weapon declined amongst Hindus, and became popular amongst the Sikhs. Perhaps one must ask whether it was ever actually used by Hindus in combat at all, or whether it was originally just a fantasy weapon.

Sikhs may have come to develop the Chakram due to its close association with the Vaishnava bhakti (worship of Vishnu, and his main incarnations Rama and Krishna) movement. Although modern Sikhism promotes the worship of god without form, the early history of the religion is quite different. The Guru Granth mentions Vishnu, Rama and Krishna hundreds of times - often referring to specific events in the lives of these dieties. It also incorporates verses authored by many Vaishnava saints, including Namdev from the Varkari tradition of Maharashtra, who was a staunch idolator. The holiest temple of the Sikhs is called the Harmandir (literally temple of Hari, another name of Vishnu) and had pictures of various Hindu dieties until the very recent Sikh reform movement, and the lake it stands on is supposedly an ancient lake sacred to Vaishnavas. And, even more strange, most of the Sikh gurus are named after Vishnu and his various incarnations: Ram Das (literally devotee of Ram), Hargobind (Hari + Gobind, names of Vishnu and Krishna respectively), Har Krishan (Hari + Krishna), Angad Dev (Angad is a character who helped Rama in the Ramayana), Gobind Singh (Gobind means cow protector, another name for Krishna), Arjan Dev (Arjuna is Krishnas closest friend) and Har Rai (Hari again).

Also, Id like to ask, does anyone know if the Chakram is actually effective in combat against an enemy? It seems to me that it is a virtually useless weapon - impractical to carry, hard (likely even risky) to throw, impossible to aim, and ineffective as well.

Here is a thread on another forum on the topic.
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...hlight=chakrum
Josh

(The video is worth watching)

Excelent video.
Thanks a thousand, Josh.
Fernando

Sikh references
 

Hi, just a humble request that the posts remain respectful of each others opinions and beliefs, best way would be to keep religious views to ourselves,

My two pence, would be that its a possible reference(although not favourable :p ) to sikhs due to the "iron dishes" as Nihung Singhs (sikh warriors) only eat out of iron, and are regarded as Sant-Sipahi, or Saint Soldier

I feel sure that no one wanted to offend you or anyone else, so if you are offended, please accept my appology.
Do you have any comments to the use of the quoit/chakra, either when it comes to where it was used or any other comments.
Jens

I have found this article on the Chakra, very informative, but the images are missing :( . Definately worth a look.

http://www.whoosh.org/issue8/rudnick6.html


Regards David

Chakram
 

Hi Jens,

Please do not apologise
I am sure no one has tried to offend anyone, its just that referring to a Sikh Guru (Prophet/Messiah) as a cow protector may be seen as some as provocative by some.
I myself am not offended easily, but a great was exerted to try and associate or merge Sikhism and Hinduism by a fellow member, which was not quite relevant to the least.

Regarding the Chakar at it is also called, It must have been useful as the Sikhs were not ritualistic with weapons, they would simply choose what was most efficient at the time. As can be seen from their armouries, Kukri's, Khanda's and Katars all which come from all over India.

either way.......it looks pretty cool!

Sikh soldier,

I think that many of us know too little about the other member’s religions, so, without meaning anything offending, they now and again happen to offend people of other believes, I doubt, and hope, that this is not meant to be so.

The Charka is a Sikh ‘phenomena’, but it seems that it was widely used over a big part of India from the very early times, can you explain how widely it was used, and why it 'suddenly' was not used in the other parts od India any more?

Jens

Hi Sikh soldier;

Does this Include the kirpan? Clearly not the case today.

Jeff

Hi I think Jeff you may find that while there have been & are faishionable & identifiable styles refererd to as Kirpan essentialy it is any sword or knife a Sikh wishes it to, that is carried to protect ones religion, ones family & the weak & vunerable.

Many years ago I worked with a lot of Sikhs, a couple carried old Pesh & Khanjar, some carried cheap indian tourist knives & some carried lockblades.

They were all called Kirpan.

But I am sure Sikhsoldier & others can provide much more precise info.

Spiral

kirpan
 

Hi guys sorry for the late reply,

Thank you spiral for your comments you are spot on,

Hi Jens, my knowledge on arms and armour is not great, I do know a bit about the sikhs :p
I know that they adopted many weapons and combat techniques from what was around them, I do not know about other groups in india using the chakar, i.e since when and why they have stopped, but I do know the chakram/chakar does originate with the sikhs.
The introduction of other projectile weapons such as guns may be a reason for it not being as popular, but sikhs will evolve with the times i.e incorporate matchlockss etc while still using and training in the use of chakars and the bow an arrow.

Hi Jeff, the sikhs were the peoples army, and by belief are not allowed to witness any type of injustice take place, and assist those in need, (incl non-militarily)


“If all possible means to restore peace have been exhausted, against oppression or tyranny, where it would be a greater offence not to take action, it is righteous to raise the sword.” 10th guru ji

Therefore, those Sikhs who have taken Amrit (baptised), are compelled to be armed.
therefore, the absolute minimum is to have a kirpan; loosely translated as a single edged blade. this can be anything from 3 inches to 3 feet. Traditionally, a Sikh would carry his kirpan, as well as many other arms. if you look at the pictures I posted above, the first picture (left) you can see that as well as being armed with chakrams, he also carries what appears to be a pistol under his left arm, a firangi and a chrillanum in his Kamarcussa (waistband). one of these may be his kirpan, or be supplementary to it.

However, due to necessity and law, baptised Sikhs only carry the bare minimum. As there are restrictions on size, there is a generic type which most wear.
spiral is right, more traditionally a Sikh could have made different types to choose from.
I have attached a picture of what is used by most, although I do know some who carry the olden types (pesh kabz is a firm favourite!)

Thanks Spiral and Sikh_soldier for the clarification.

My comments are only regarding the modern Kirpan which has only a ceremonial purpose. http://www.sikhs.org/art12.htm

Toshkhana is there any way to get a higher resolution photo of the hand near the center of the painting you posted.

All the Best
Jeff

Thats just written for westerners Jeff. ;) Not the Faithfull.

Read the stuff for the faithfull. Or talk to them....


Spiral

He, He, He...

I have, they must tow the party line with all westerners then. :)

Jeff

mmmm I guess politcal correctness & public knife fear in Canada demands a subtlty of answear knowadays then, to prevent falling foul of the law,public opinion etc.

There are many Sikhs on this forum. 3 at least in this thread. ;)

Sikhsoldier is one of them.

Evry Sikh Ive known woud use their kirpan as a weapon if they needed.

Singh means Lion after all. Not sheep. ;)

Spiral

Hi Sikh Soldier, just want to state that I respect the distinctiveness of the Sikh religion, and I do not have any agenda of merging it with Hinduism. However, I do believe that all religions are to some extent inspired by those that developed before them, I just thought that looking at some of the possible inspirations for Sikhism could help shed some light on why they came to use the Chakram.

Please note that Govind/Gobind is a Sanskrit name, and translated literally into English it is Go (Sanskrit for Cow) + Vind (Protector). In classic Hindu literature such as the Harivamsha and Mahabharata it is used as another name for Krishna. Here is a link confirming this:
http://www.indianchild.com/baby_name_indian_boy_g.htm

I am sorry if my theories have caused any offense, out of respect this will be my last post on the subject.

Kirpan
 

Hi guys, sorry for my late post, I did not realise was a second page :p

Also it did not seem that I was needed, spiral was as usual absolutely spot-on :)
Hi Jeff, the website you have looked at is in my humble opinion incorrect, it is contradictory whilst referring to the kirpan as integral for the concept of
Sant-Sipahi (Saint-Soldier) of a (baptised) Sikh, it then vehemently denies any possible idea of it being used as a weapon, and likens it to symbolic symbols such as the Christian cross.
whatever the reasons for people putting forward this definition of the kirpan (which definitely include those given by spiral), if one looks at pictures and paintings as recent as in the last hundred years it can be clearly seen by all, how the kirpan was considered i.e. a weapon.
indeed this can be inferred as well as how it may be used from its name;

Kirpa; Mercy/compassion
Aan; honour/dignity/righteousness

A definition of mere symbolism, ignores and undermines the Sikh's military and warrior heritage, the kirpan was introduced at a time when there was great oppression on all religions in India, it seems more than a symbol was required :D

PS I very much appreciate your comments, Roshan, although I did not mean to prohibit free speech.
However, I'm glad you recognised the issue; a very serious one regarding right-wing extremist groups such as the RSS in India who have as part of their agenda, to align Sikhism with Hinduism.
this has been the cause of great violence and it is only as I knew you would be aware of it, that I made the point. if someone else on the forum had made such a point, I would not have expressed disapproval but as a fellow Indian (I assume ;) ) I was certain you were aware.
thank you very much for your understanding Roshan

Thanks Sikh Soldier,

I will have to start looking at kirpans again, almost all that I looked at were junk pieces (one was a hilt with no blade). I stopped inspecting them assuming that they were cerimonial.

All the Best
Jeff

kirpan
 

Hi Jeff,

most modern daggers made for kirpan use are totally impractical, fit for a "symbollic" purpose.
There is no generic kirpan as long as it is practical (useable) it can be anything from small to large, i believe it must be single edged though.
Thus, you will find it difficult to find an authentic "kirpan" as it may just be an old dagger like a pesh kabz, it was only required that sikhs (Male + Female) carried atleast a single edged dagger at all times.

regards Baljit

greetings,

A big hello to all members of this forum, My name is 'Caveman' I have to comment on this topic although my post is 2 years going on 3 years late but I think this video will be very interesting to all members of the forum.

I think people should watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDNw2slOK3Y

it was shown on the discovery channel about the 'chakar'
so please all watch it and it will answer your questions...

regards