THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MOROCCAN AND A ZANZIBARI NIMCHA.
 

What is the difference between a Weazle and a Stoat?

"The Weazle is (W)easily distinguishable from a Stoat which is (S)toatally different".

Regarding Nimcha of Morocco and Zanzibar it isn't so easy... They look the same and often have virtually identical Hilts.....The blades are difficult to separate...The hilts are both often made of Rhino...So what is the difference?

It occured to me that we often look at the wrong parts to decide which is what?...

My description of the Moroccan style would be; Hilt often Rhino with quillons ending in bud form Ring at base of Hilt sometimes enamel. Blade European sometimes locally struck with a cross stamp and with other marks including moon / moons and other German strikes...Blade sometimes clipped. Scabbard if present ornate sometimes completely decorated in Arabesque and occasionally enamel.. And one more thing... on top of the pommel a stud holding the hilt secure on the blade...a rounded stud usually.

The Zanzibari Nimcha with Nimcha hilt and blade which are almost identical though blade tips are not clipped. Base ring usually not ornately decorated in enamel or arabesques . The Quillons usually ending in open mouthed Yali or serpents..The scabbard if present usually plain and often in the Omani leather style with sworls designed onto the leather.... Occasionally with a Dee Ring. Some, but not all, quillons decorated with rows of dots and back to back R shapes... and on top of the pommels a Turtle!!

Now its your turn... Sort out this lot below !!

Salaams Ibrahiim,
Well it's quiz time so here are my answers, right or wrong.....
Before I give my 2 cents worth there is another feature which (generally) appears on the Zanzibari Nimcha, and that is the down turned hilt. The Moroccan version is usually straight in my experience.
OK so to the answers......
From the top as the pics appear:
Zanzibar
Next 4 pics Moroccan except #023 which I am not sure about.
Zanzibar
Morocco
Zanzibar
Morocco
Last 3 pics Zanzibar
Hope I have the answers in the right order.
Will be interesting top see what others think..........................
Stu

Good Morning ,

this nimcha is from Algeria,
18 century, perhaps even earlier.

Kurt

Consistent with my examples.

Is he correct? :)

Is this right?? Any comments? :)

:) any more?? :)

Here is a proposal that the hilt on Moroccan Nimcha is not so pronounced a turn down in shape...Excellent point well placed... :shrug:

:) As a quick warm up simply place the following pictures as to where are they from...and on viewing the big coloured Sri Lasnkan picture of 3 Kastane comment if you think they may be relevant to Nimcha style... :shrug:

See Anthony North "Islamic Arms"
Figure 20 + 22b

See Anthony North "Islamic Arms"
Figure 20 + 22b

See Robert Hales " Islamic and Oriental Arms and Armer
Figure 584

I think so, too. This kind is likely to be a corsair sword (according to length and blade shape), minding that most of that region economy at that era was based upon piracy.

Yes the Tobias Blose as well as the Nimcha taken in an encounter in the Mediterranean are both recorded by me in earlier threads. In terms of the Algerian Nimcha I also threw that one in and you are right Algerian though I actually wanted to find a clossonne example which I know I put on Library..or saw in Library...but it doesnt work... Engineers trying to access... :)

Yes I recall doing that as a post earlier and I think he ran the opponent through and took his sword...Swashbuckling stuff!! The local economy certainly benefited from piracy although much of it was done on land I understand..

There are 3 good charts from Butin; It can be seen that the charts are somewhat confusing since some Omani sword weapons are mixed with the wrong chart and the author calls one chart ARABIE...and another MAROC....but the displayed weapons argue with that nomenclature...ie they are bit mixed up . Having said that it is easy to unscramble and Butin takes his place at the top of the Ethnographic weapons specialty where he is greatly admired. :)

There is a separate chart(Diverse Oriental Armes) for what are almost odd men out including Sri Lankan and Yatagan styles and also in the same chart are those Ivory Hilts of Oman and Zanzibar with gold round and leaf shaped decorations. Another key appears however, in the shape of the Omani Scabbard with round sworls crafted into the leather.

Regarding the astute observation by Stu earlier ; It can be seen that the Moroccan form does indeed have a more upright facing pommel and the Zanzibar form more points downward.

Members have noted privately that the Zanzibar type has a ring guard whereas the Moroccan does not... This is not the case; Some Zanzibar Nimcha do have the ring guard but there are those that have none whereas I have never seen a ring guard on Moroccan Nimchas.

As a connected thread see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...zanzibar+yemen which makes the position clearer.

Here is a good historical reference: Showing the upright facing pommel and the single stud.

Regarding my first post here I set that as a bit of a brain teaser and everyone had a good shot at that with some interesting resulting key factors unearthed ...The Algerian variant is an interesting conundrum as telling these apart from the Moroccan is well near impossible ... It has ornate silver filigree and a more woven tapestry in the scabbard ...Personally I thought the use of clossonne was more the Algerian style but the point is it is too close ...they are virtually identical so far as I can tell...

As for the others it can be seen that the main differences are the Stud versus the Turtle and as Stu pointed out the more upright hilt and pommel appears on the Moroccan style whilst the Zanzibari type is more pointed downwards....Full marks all round ...

OK HERES ANOTHER PUZZLE... WHAT IS THIS....ON THE LEFT SHOWING TWO FACES OF A SWORD...? :shrug: On second thoughts I realize I cannot leave it as a simple question since it carries the almost visible description Pallasch!! Having said that what is the relationship with Pallasch and Nimcha? Is the name from Pala(Turkish) or is it simply a result of a continuous morphing nature of whats in a word?... Is it Venitian, Genoan or Italian? The blade is hugely broad and clearly for chopping and slashing. Has the style moved through the Med to such countries as Morocco with seagoing nations, Pirates, merchants or how ...? if this is the case...how did the form slide down the Red Sea or across the desert to the Indian Ocean? Somehow this form has affected several distinctly different regions...and beyond... :shrug:

What about the second picture with the sword with brasswork on the hilt?

On plate 32 above see exhibit 1004 by Butin who expressly places this on the separate chart. This is what can be described as a VIP version since it is Ivory decorated in gold. In my view this is a classic VIP style though it is interesting in that post 1 of http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15325 shows it carried by a Hareem Palace guard.
Goldwork on an African comb (below) has been discussed by me before as being similar to that hilt decoration. In addition note that the leatherwork contains sworls (circles) in the leather which is very much an Omani decorative technique. It is accepted that this work could have been done by an Omani artesan working in Zanzibar /the close Zanj region or Oman. Note the upper scabbard ring is almost identical to another shown at http://cmmilitaryantiques.com/gallery.php?arid=5311 also a Zanzibari Nimcha.

I have a general couple of questions to which I do not know the answer...How did such a similar hilt develop in Morocco and in Zanzibar and who made that happen?

To give reason to my indicator of turtle hilt decoration atop the pommel I place below one of the common turtles in the region and the device itself on a Zanzibar Nimcha.

Puzzled
 

Do you have any idea why the turtle should have particular significance to the Zanzibari peoples Iibrahim?

Hawksbill turtles (Eretmochelys imbricata) have traditionally been hunted around Zanzibar for their attractive shells, and Green turtles (Chelonia mydas) for their meat..

Another marker Guide to the difference in the two Nimcha Hilt Types is the knuckle Guard on the Moroccan style is at right angles or L shaped ....whilst the Zanzibari form is S shaped or rounded as it joins the cross guard. :shrug: (not on all Zanzibari variants)

That Nimcha in the book a little earlier at #19... A reference on it suggests;

Quote" Pallasch; Culture: blade - Italian, Milan (with Ottoman decorations), mount - Ottoman, vessel (Hilt?) - Morocco
Dated: 16th Century
Material and Technique: blade of iron, forged, etched and engraved grip of iron, wood, horn
Measurement: total length of 107.7cm; blade 93.9cm; weight 1817g

Elector Christian I of Saxony received the saber as a gift in 1587 by Francesco I de ‘Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany. This weapon is one in many respects to the peculiarities of the Turkish Chamber. First and foremost, the impressive appearance is mentioned, which is caused by the massive, ornate edged blade.

This saber is made of very different work areas. While the vessel(hilt?) is from Morocco and the typical form there corresponds with strongly angled work and s-shaped quillons, the blade is an Italian work. She has been a chosen, and was crowned Pi marked accordingly in Milan. (what is Pi ?)

The blade was then decorated in the Orient. The etched and partly engraved decoration consists of medallions with stripes and scrolls, flowers and leaves. The middle stripe is a Spanish inscription found in a secret script-like character.

How did this strange mixture of different origins (come about) is not yet clear. Could possibly play in the events following the reconquest of Spain by 1492. Many Spanish Jews left the country after the conquest of Granada and moved some of North Africa in the dominion of the Ottomans."Unquote.

Source & Copyright: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden.

Although I am not sure what some of this translation means and I have placed in brackets and underlined ... I am sure you get the general drift...and whilst it forms a large part of the puzzle yet also gives us many clues in this regard.

Looking back through Library... I note the sword below as a European Blade on a Zanzibari Hilt...The Hilt decorated in Marjan (Coral) , The blade apparently supplied / made by Schimmelbusch Quote" The blade of this Zanzibari sword is European in origin, perhaps German. Zanzibari swords are famous for their incorporation of European blades and Arab handles. The stars and crescent moon on the blade may be the mark of a family of German swordmakers by the name of Schimmelbusch, but the intricate designs on the handle reflect Zanzibari decorative metalworking traditions as well".Unquote.

In terms of this type of sword I consider the two ages during which they arrived in Morocco and Zanzibar...What I mean is when did they arrive? .. Did the difference in arrival date (if there is one) alter the form of the hilt? Reason suggests that the first style arrived across the Mediterranean from the east (Italian or Ottoman) transmitting style as far west as Morocco. From there it went to London and other countries...

On passing please note the sword in question as having 7 stars and a crescent moon. The Scabbard is Omani. (Note the sworls!) Please See http://badger.uvm.edu/omeka/exhibits...02010/item/574

It occurred to me that swords in Zanzibar were put together from delivered parts later than its Moroccan sister....Fixed in a workshop on Zanzibar not imported whole ...but from the various components supplied by trade as;

1. Blades from Europe/ Hadramaut/ India/ etc.
2. Hilts and guards from Hadramaut, India or locally made.
3. Scabbards from a local Omani Artesan or Muscat.
4. The Turtle added locally as a Zanzibari insignia.
5. Gold decoration from the Zanj as on the comb.
6. Rhino and Ivory from the Omani slavers and Ivory/Rhino merchants...
7. Coral provided locally/Omani artesans...Often seen on Omani Jewelery.

Worth noting is that the Moroccan Nimcha is normally worn on a sling; over the shoulder style baldric...as at # 17. :shrug:

The Moroccan may also carry a lot of Arabic script on the blade...as below;

Rare Artwork from the Orientalist stable.... :)

A strange sword with a hilt inspired by...?

What about this sword: Zanzibar, Yemen or the Maghreb?

Likely Zanzibar despite the cross guard although there are crossguards on some Nimcha at Butins plate 30 see charts at this thread.... We can not see the top of the pommel so not sure if the Turtle figure is intact but the hilt with a downward tilt to the pommel is certainly present. This is in the classic Butin form and shows the cross guard style. Zanzibar.

So where is this form from and is the hilt related to the Somalian dagger hilt shown...? The Billao; A billao (Somali: billaawe), also known as a belawa, is a horn-hilted Somali shortsword. It served most notably as a close-quarters weapon in the Dervish State, at the turn of the 20th century.
The dagger has a double-edged, leaf-shaped, asymmetrical blade and a three-pronged pommel. One-pronged pommels with the metal tang protruding out from the center of the hilt

I place a Yemeni Nimcha variant on white background with silver in the Hilt for further comparison...Are they related?

The indications are that the project weapon is typical for a Saudia Arabian style with an all silvered hilt. Plate 30 Butin shows 1009 as being the same weapon which he simply calls Arabian.

Ibrahim, I personally am not so sure about the connection between the prongs on Hadramaut saifs and Somalian billaos. The three pronged billaos appear to be later, from the first half of the 20th century when Somalia was an Italian colony. The older, ivory hilted billaos I have only seen with one prong. Do you have a picture of a 3-pronged, older billao?

Teodor

I must admit that the similarity between these Somali and Hadhramati hilts is compelling, and the proximity with Arab trade routes as well adds to such plausibility. It is good food for thought deserving more examination and interesting idea looking into the number of prongs on the earlier billao.

Another interesting perspective is the prevalence of the trilobite pommel features, which include the 'karabela' type hilts (termed 'hawks head in Yemen I believe), as well as it seems other cultural forms such as the Tibetan hilt ke tri. In Tibet, one of the hilts attributed to Kham has three projections instead of the trilobite shape of the ke tri. I know this is only the popularly held term for the familiar Tibetan hilts but cannot think of the proper term (check LaRocca). In the attached image only two prongs appear but the third is missing (the spot where attached is visible).

It would seem that the three, whether trimurti or trinity and other views does occur symbolically in numbers of cases whether in actual elements or features of swords or markings etc. and these are often convergent in instance .

Hello Jim, Thank you for your post; The 3 prong device on the pommel may well be something Talismanic as we know three dots appears as some sort of protection...It could be a reference to the three religions Islam Christianity and Judaism or a similar three in one protector as you point out (the fleur de lys is associated with that also) as I believe are the 3 bead structure on the Islamic bead string placed to prevent evil climbing up .On the hawkshead I'm afraid that was probably me... as not knowing Karabela at the time I wrongly stuck that name on those hilts that resembled hawks heads...

Fair enough and perhaps I should have pointed out that it may not be clear which way the design flowed. Is it possible that the Somali dagger style with pronged hilt took that form from the Nimcha shown?

Kopis??
 

On tracing back through Forum I spotted this picture below...What is the relationship if any with this weapon and the Nimcha ? :)
Note Genoa bite marks all down the backblade and the hint of something Zoomorphic in the hilt with an eye...Is this a horse head? Note the appearance of a nock at the top of the grip and the knuckle guard. This weapon is said to influence another; the Falceta Iberian weapon...Comments please?


See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11617

Whilst members may be thinking about the question above I have noted the following website details of a Moroccan Nimcha...(I find it interesting and worthy of a note in the margin that the report refers to This large saber or nimcha at the very beginning whilst we have a suggestion earlier that Nimcha meant half sword. Perhaps this can be discussed later? In other words does Nimcha mean something else?)

please see http://www.musee-delacroix.fr/en/the...a/saber-nimcha from which I Quote"

This large saber or nimcha-a masculine accessory and symbol of tribe and rank-is one of the objects that Delacroix brought back from his trip to Morocco in 1832. The splendid weapons, musical instruments, textiles, and leather and ceramic items owned by the Musée Delacroix came from the collection of Charles Cournault (1815 - 1904), an Orientalist painter to whom Delacroix bequeathed most of his North African souvenirs.


The blade of the saber has three grooves. The manufacturer’s mark is perhaps visible under the hilt whose three quillons are decorated with a rosette motif inlaid with gold and silver threads in a cartouche. A floral and plant design runs around a copper ring encircling the hilt, and there is a beautiful marbled effect on the horn handle. The top of the leather scabbard is encircled by a velvet band on a leather background, onto which the straps for holding or hanging the saber are attached. Its lower part has a gold decoration featuring two floral elements, edged with a net design.
Delacroix’s trip to Morocco

In 1832, Eugène Delacroix traveled to Morocco with the diplomatic delegation of the Comte de Mornay, ambassador extraordinary from King Louis-Philippe to Sultan Moulay Abd-el-Rahman. His trip lasted from January to July, during which time he traveled from Tangiers to Meknes, visiting Algeria and southern Spain on his journey home. Delacroix was so delighted by his discovery of this place "made for painters" with its dazzling light and magical colors that between his return and his death he produced some 80 paintings with North African themes (plus countless sketches). His Oriental scenes, fantasias, military exercises, and portraits of Arabs include scrupulously rendered costumes and accessories: this type of nimcha saber with its hooked pommel, for example, is clearly recognizable near the Soldiers Sleeping in a Guardroom (watercolor, private collection), or hanging behind Chief Mohammed Ben Abu in Delacroix’s portraits of him in watercolor (private collection) and etching (Musée Delacroix)".Unquote.

Nimcha~ What's in a word?
 

:)

Nimcha~ What's in a word?
 

I touched on the interesting puzzle surrounding the use of a Persian/Baluch word and thus the reflection of that word in describing the Moroccan Regional and Zanzibar Regional sword generally known as The Nimcha.
This thread shows similarities and differences in the weapon used in two distinctly different regions yet carrying the same name. The only actual real common denominator is the name! The blade, Hilt, Quillons, Guard and even how it is suspended plus the decoration and Scabbard are different. It is as if some one from each region copied a sword but added all the regional variety of style to their own version. In essence I suspect that is the message from the famous Butin Charts of Nimcha from these different locations.

Nimcha means half sword... It could mean short sword...but from Persian / Baluchi who had no contact between Zanzibar and Morocco~ or did they? Both Burton and Tipu Tib used Baluchi mercenaries as guards into and out of central Africa...in doing so the cross Saharan trade routes were at their beckoning thus the name/general style may have spread to Moroccan and North African neighbors of Morocco...or direct.

Another simple explanation cites the mispronunciation of another weapon...The Shamshiir...(Shamshir~ Nimcha) Anything is possible...

Could the name Nimcha mean something else such as sharp on one edge? Half Sword...Generally that could satisfy the same name being used on each sword...

Nimcha also means half jacket...actually a waistcoat commonly worn by Baluchis but is a word from the Uzbekistan region and straddling central Asia.

Is it possible that the sword's name spread because it was carried by Baluchi mercenaries (Nimcha; waistcoat wearers) employed by Omani rulers including Saiid bin Sultan all down the Zanj, Zanzibar, and in the service of the Sultans before and after Saiid's Reign in 1804 to 1856... and focused on Zanzibar from about 1830. See http://www.indiana.edu/~ctild/Centra...ry/Accessories and note Nimcha waistcoat picture...on a website looking at Turkic and Iranian dialect and lexicography..Baluchistan straddles two countries ...Iran and Pakistan.

The previous post notes that the sword is referred to as a large saber ...when if the word is meant to describe small(half) swords how can it be also be described as meaning large?

Given that it seems Morocco developed a sword of this nature before Zanzibar with that particular similar grip to the hilt; Which way did influence flow? Who could have transmitted style/form to the Indian Ocean? Actually there are many... There were big battle fleets in the Indian Ocean from Ottoman, Mameluke, Venetian and Portuguese in the 15th/16thC any one of which could be responsible for this transmission or War as a key pointer. It could have bounced off Indian designers and on to Zanzibar through trade...via any of the important sea trader families in the Indian Ocean. The same can be said about Omani influence; already illustrated by the sword at post #1 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15325 showing how the weapon had diffused to African countries probably through Zanzibar at least as far as Tunisia !!

The exact form of technical transfer may never be pinpointed, however, the common denominator appears to be Trade...and from what appears to be an original design concocted in the Mediterranean basin for which a strong indicator may be Italian ( Genoa may well be in the frame ) The other design indicator of the huge chopping blade is at #19 and #24 which points to a mixed stable of blade decorators and is difficult to tie down to a specific country but somewhere in the Central or Eastern Mediterranean...Italian or Ottoman?

Finally, is it plausible that the sword originally began in East Mediterranean centres diffused West to North African countries and South down the Red Sea to the Indian Ocean Zanzibar Regions but that its name rebounded from there to encompass the Moroccan Regional style absorbing the name Nimcha through some link with The Baluchi Mercenaries of Oman/Zanj and by trans North African trade routes? I therefor suggest War and Trade as being primary movers in this regard.

Your comments are invited..

Nimcha... Did the word mean sword of the men in waistcoats( Nimcha)...The Baluch.