UNUSUAL TULWAR for COMMENT
 

This Tulwar just finished at auction here and I am interested to see what Members think about the blade. It looks very much like a Takouba type blade but does not appear to be a "hybrid" creation.
Stu

This is a very interesting and unusual talwar. If its length were more than 120 cm, then we could boldly call it as "dhōp".

Hi Stu,

This does look like a firangi (foreign) blade, but I would not exclude the possibility that it was a local copy. Most firangi I have seen were longer than the usual tulwar. Hard to judge age, but it does not look recent.

Ian.

Why?

Very interesting blade decoration; I have a khanjarli with the same type of decoration

I have Indian blades with the same fullers...
Yes, Indians imitated European blades, nothing new.
If Tuaregs can do it, of course, Indians can do it too!
I agree with Mercenary, Firangi means nothing, just foreigner and the Indian swords called firangi have a basket hilt...
;)

What hilts are your fullered blades on? Do you have any blades like this with TULWAR hilts. If so could you please post some pics.

I was hoping that this thread would comment on the particular blade/hilt combination as I have not been able to find any other pics or reference to Tulwars like this.
Stu

My initial thought in seeing this example, I thought perhaps this was a Sudanese kaskara blade mounted in a tulwar hilt. However, while the crudely drawn central triple fullers resemble those on the blades commonly seen on these, the blade fans out toward the hilt, while kaskara blades remain uniform.

A 'straight' blade 'tulwar' (Indo-Persian hilt) is known in Hindu as 'sukhela', and to the south in Deccan as 'dhup' (Marathi). ("The Indian Sword", P.Rawson, 1969, p.30,p.90).Trying to categorize these, just as with most ethnographic weapons, by term, is usually pure folly.

The straight blade on these swords seems to have been regarded in many cases as for representations of authority, court officials, and often soldiers or warriors of high esteem....apparently the variation had some significance.

It would seem this blade is a copied version of possibly the Sudanese kaskara blades, as far as fullering that is. Interestingly, I have seen Indian swords with 'kaskara or Sudanese' blades, or actually those of the form which were exported heavily into Sudan from Europe. In some cases these were with 'tulwar' hilts, some 'pata' etc.
That would suggest there was enough diffusion and interaction with trade between these spheres to bring about these kinds of circumstances.

Thus, a dhup/sukhela sword with probably Indian made approximation of either a Sudanese blade or its European counterpart. The 'firangi' term is used only collectively to describe any sword with a 'foreign' blade, regardless of overall sword form.

Hi Jim,
Thanks for your contribution. Much appreciated. Yes I would perhaps call this a Sukhela but any illustration I can find suggests that the Sukhela blade has paralel sides rather than tapered from the hilt as this blade is.
I am not (necessarily) trying to get a concise ID of this sword but simply to see if anyone else has (or has seen) this particular variant.
Stu

Hi Stu,
Understood, and the way I have understood, the terms 'sukhela' and 'dhup' are simply by language describing the same type sword, that is with basically straight blade rather than curved.
The 'variation' seems to be primarily blade oriented, and as blades came from so many sources, not to mention being remounted many times over working lives, it is hard to pinpoint.
Here are some of the examples of these found online, not much help, but illustrates the range of variant blades that were used.

Studying the swords and weapons of India is both daunting and exciting with so many conundrums involved.
Nice and interesting example Stu, as always.

Jim

[QUOTE=corrado26;265793]Very interesting blade decoration; I have a khanjarli with the same type of decoration[/QUOTE


Interesting example Udo, and I see what you mean, those parallel fullers which are irregularly drawn (though four) suggest Indian workmanship on blade.

Once again thank you Jim. The pics you posted show several different types of blades (some look to be repurposed) so the subject blade which sold here could also be a repurposed blade, or made in India to resemble a Takouba blade.
I agree with your comments regarding Indian weapons....quite a mine field really as there are just so many of them.
Hope you are OK with the wild weather and the virus in the U.S.
Stu

Well, absolutely not made in India to resemble a Takouba blade.

Takouba blade or Indian blade to resemble to a European blade.
:rolleyes:

To come back to your question Stu, the blade looks South Indian and the hilt North Indian.
Now is this combination done later in an "English lab" for sale?
an "Indian lab" for tourists with two old parts?
Or a geniune product from the 18th or 19th c.
Well I don't know...
:confused:

Hi Kubur,

In your post above you say you have Indian blades with fullers. Can we please see some pics?
Stu

Sukhela - a kind of steel.

Dhoop - a representative sword that can be held like a staff (as Jim correctly wrote).

Indian talwar with a blade of Persian, European, African and so on production, made in accordance with Indian traditions in India - this is an Indian talwar. I saw in the thread no facts why this blade could not have been made in India.

Thank you Mercenary, actually what I suggested in post #8 (but did not make clear) was that this blade was likely made in India in imitation of either European or North African (probably Sudanese) blade.
As North Africa imitated European blades, it would be hard to determine which might be the case.

Thank you for the info on Sukhela being a type of steel, I had not realized that but indeed that may have lent to the term for the swords which had been produced using it. It seems that these kinds of instances would come up for example in Sirohi (Rajasthan) where the swords produced were called that, but whether place name or as you note, perhaps other, might be the case.
The name game gets pretty 'exciting' (?) and intriguing.

Hi Kubur,
Since North African blades often tried to imitate European, and Indian armorers did as well, it is hard to say, but this seems made in India.

In West Africa, many of the takouba types do have these wide forte and tapering blades, and with this kind of fullering, but it would be difficult to imagine why a native made Saharan blade would end up in Indo-Persian tulwar hilt..I have always sort of hidden my eyes from the notorious 'labs' (very well put) where collector guaged 'antiquities' are created by nefarious sellers, but they do exist.

As I had noted, I have seen numerous instances where Sudanese blades have ended up in Indian mounts, but have always taken it that these were simply blades diverted from the trade routes which carried these blades and somehow diffused into the India network.


Here is a pata of mine I've had for about 40 years. As can be seen this appears to be a Solingen blade, the cosmological motif can be faintly seen. This is of the type that went into Sudan c. 1880s. The erratic profile of the blade is common on older kaskara and Saharan blades which have had rugged sharpening by native warriors with stones. Clearly this blade at some time ended up in this pata hillt, and it was long ago as considerably before I acquired it. In various ceremonies with groups in regions in SW India pata are used processionally and in demonstrations so this might well have been a votive piece, not intended for combat.

The wide, tapered blade takouba from regions in Saharan regions such as Mali, to Cameroon seems to have been status oriented. While often the upper part is covered by a metal collar, often these are seen with the kind of fullers seen on Stu's example.

Hi Jim,

Agreed!
South Indian three fullers are larger and not completely parrallel (unlike the takouba's ones), wider at the ricasso.


Mmmm I never ever saw that, like mercenary I would like to see evidences.

Hi,
This sword belongs to me and I am as sure as I can be that it is all original and not a composite. I termed this sword as Sukhela as the blade has the flexibility to conform to the type. The sword form appears to be named after this type of steel. This is a backsword and I would be interested if Stu could confirm if his is a backsword or broadsword.
Regards,
Norman.

Hi,
This sword belongs to Rick and again as far as I can see it is also a backsword.
Rick questioned whether his example be termed a Dhup.
Regards,
Norman.

Hi,
Some additional info.
http://web.prm.ox.ac.uk/weapons/inde...121/index.html

https://www.fordemilitaryantiques.co...rd-blade-types

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archiv...&lot_uid=89306

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...+bladed+tulwar

Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,
I am inclined to believe that these 'dhup' are typically backswords (SE) as yours and Rick's, it seems other examples I have seen are single edged.

From the blade appearance of Stu's I am suspecting this is a double edged blade, note the fullers are centrally placed.
In backswords, the fullers are of course inclined toward the back of the blade with the blade resulting in more of a 'wedge' shape.

Thank you Stu! All OK, wild weather is expected this time of year, but of course nobody gets used to it......resilient yes, complacent no. We are lucky in this part of Texas our area is not like the metropolitan cities where certain political mindsets run rampant and the population issues are a factor.
My daughter is a nurse and handles elderly patients etc. so she has had it rough, not because of hard work, but losing patients. She takes it hard.

Im really glad you posted this example, we need more Indian weapons as we always learn more each one we discuss.

All the best, you guys stay safe OK
Jim

Hi Jim,
I suspect you are absolutely correct, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norm and Jim,
This sword was SOLD at auction here but is not owned by me. However the blade was described as double edged.
Stu

This sword came from Oriental Arms many years ago; Artzi described the steel as very fine grained, low contrast wootz.

My understanding ( as per Elgood) that a Firangi ( European blade) migrated North and was called Dhup in the Deccan and Asa Shamshir in North India.
And yes, those were usually quite long, but, just like everything in India, they varied enormously.

Here I am showing my Firangis. It is quite dark outside, I had to turn off some lights in our pretty small " open" room to eliminate flashes on the blades and,- last but not least,- I am a crummy photographer!!!!!!

Real firangi.
 

This is an unquestionably real Firangi from the South.
European double-edged blade wit a single wide fuller and a " Genoese"/"Styrian"/ make your guess. trade blade. Blade is marked , see last pic.
No Indian ricasso, blade length 34 "
Good and complete basket handle with intact baluster and leather-wrapped hilt, old, practically congealed leather, if not the original, then definitely from the working life of this Firangi.

Two more firangis: Indian? European?
 

Here are two more with questionable datings and attributions.
The first pic shows them together: blade length of the long one is 38", definitely qualifying it as Asa Shamshir ( staff sword). The blade has 3 narrow fullers and we can see it on trade blade from Europe, North African and Indian, It is single -edged and has no Indian ricasso. There is a mark almost hidden under the langet: real European trade or local imitation? Pretty basic basket handle, no terminal of the baluster ( lost? never existed?) I suspect the entire sword is a local Indian production, likely Moghul, 18-19th century.

The short one is more interesting. blade length only 24". It is hexagonal that I cannot recall on genuine Indian blades. AFAIK, this pattern stems from the Spanish cavalry sword 1728 pattern, but please feel free to correct me. Three narrow central fullers, pretty crude carving technique, I would guess made locally. No Indian ricasso, double-edged. No marks. My guess those might have been lost when the blade was shortened: the original Spanish blade was 33" long and had small ricassos on both edges.
Typical Tulwar handle, but with an interesting feature: pretty long baluster that is bent down: usually thought to be a feature of the 17th century.
Two rivets with brass washers underneath: one at the grip, another at the quillon block. While some stress the presence of rivets (especially at the quillon block) as a distinctive Afghani feature, the original idea came from the South and just migrated North.
I would think about Deccan/ Maratha and place the whole thing around 17-18 century ( open for discussion). Highly likely, for both the blade and the handle it was not the first marriage:-)

The blade is probably Styrian, and the markings approximating the so called 'Genoan' sickle marks as commonly found on blades from these regions. I usually consider these double edged blades as intended for schiavona of 17th-18th c.
Likely entered the Mahratta trade sphere.

On the top 'firangi' it seems odd that this is double edged, as I had thought the fuller grouping would be at center, rather than along one side as here.
Could this have been a wider blade?
The three dots seen of the marking at forte of course suggest the double arc 'sickles' which typically have three dots at terminus' of each side.
For some reason I had always thought of these khanda (firangi) as either Rajput or Mahratta, but as with most Indian arms, its anybodys guess most of the time.

The second one, as noted, my first inclinations would be North India, Afghan regions as these riveted features are indeed characteristic. The angled pommel stem (baluster) I had always thought Rajput, and the knuckleguard character with 'swans neck' turnback at pommel I have regarded as Northern as well.
The thing is that there were profound connections between Afghan regions and the Deccan, in fact the well known 'paluoar' sabers regarded as 'Afghan' are considered of Deccani influence.

The blade is indeed very much as the Spanish 1728 dragoon blades and as described by Ariel. These were often shortened in this manner for mounting on the espada ancha swords of Colonial Mexico. These most commonly carried the 'Spanish motto' and were hexagonal cross section. I had not considered that India would copy this type cross section, but these fullers are pretty crudely drawn.

On another thread we have been discussing blades from North Africa ending up in India (or on Indian hilts) and the Spanish motto blades are known to have been found in that African sphere, so again, anybodys guess.

Agree. Afghanis were kept in check by Babur in 1526 ( First Battle of Panipat), but were victorious in 1761 ( Third Battle of Panipat) against the Maratha Empire. Both battles occured north of Delhi, far, far away from Deccan. However, Afghani mercenaries joined Mughals in their invasions of Deccan in the 17th century. There was the source of the " cup" pommel of the pulwar and, perhaps of its downturned quillons, although Persian influence cannot be excluded. Since then Afghanis became an important force in Deccan, and occasionally even the rulers.

Jim:
"On the top 'firangi' it seems odd that this is double edged, as I had thought the fuller grouping would be at center, rather than along one side as here."

Jim, I am blushing: it IS single edged, and I have no idea what possessed me to write such "double-edged" nonsence!
I have corrected the error.

Ariel! oops! I seem to be having more of those moments too....are we gettin' old? Great descriptions on these overall just the same.......and good detail on the Afghan-Deccani situations.
All the best'
Jim

Hi all! Just wanted to add a few thoughts here and clarify what I can.

First of all, language and name game-wise, I feel like it would be helpful for a few people to elucidate how the term "dhop" is pronounced. In marathi the word is written as "धोप", which is spelled धो - dho, with the "o" being pronounced the same way as the o in "own", and प - p. To explain it a slightly different way, the sword "dhop" is pronounced the same way the english slang word "dope" is. Thus, alternative transliterations of "धोप" as either "dhup" or "dhoop" would be misleading, as the "official" word contains no vowel sounds that could be properly aligned with either u or oo-based sounds.

As to the veracity of this term as one used to describe a basket hilt with some form of vaguely european-in-style blade, we have to look no further than the "indian side" of youtube to find examples of natives using the term in the modern day. Here's one example of a clip from a tv special about Marathi weapons, where they pronounce the term at the 0:40 mark, and here's another example from a Sikh youtuber talking about the sword type, specifically saying the term at around 0:44.

In my opinion, while "firangi" is a legitimate term, it's a bit too vague to use these days when talking about indian swords. Sure, there are plenty of swords with "firangi blades" out there, but since we now know that copies of European blades were paired with hilts just as often as authentic ones, it makes no sense to rely on "firangi" as a sword type when the swords described, from a glance, have a 50/50 chance of actually being accurate to the term. Meanwhile, the term "dhop" makes no such distinction, and instead is defined (from what I can tell) as just a basket-hilted sword with some kind of long and often - but not always - fullered blade. The term "asa shamshir" indeed is more northern in origin, but I would say it's an accurate term to describe any straight-bladed, basket-hilted "firangi". In my mind, firangi is a good way of marking an indian sword as having a trade blade (i.e. saying "this is a firangi-bladed pata, tulwar, etc"), when used as a descriptor/shorthand that would indeed signify that that sword has a blade of european origin, but I think it is too vague of a term to use as a standalone type of sword. Also worth noting that, unfortunately, we don't really know what the more southern Tamil/Malayali/Kannadiga terms for these types of swords would be, despite the fact that we do know 100% that these types of swords were made & used in those areas (of course we do know the term for "sword" in each of these languages, but what I'm curious about is just *if* they used a different, distinct word).

In terms of what to call a "standard" tulwar-hilted sword with some kind of atypical fullered blade, which is what Stu actually started this thread on, I think it's important to remember that the blades used on indian swords were really quite unusually diverse, relative to the rest of the world. Indeed, compared to the more strict ways of mounting sword blades in say, europe, the only qualification a blade needed in india to be stuck on a hilt was that it's tang was the right size (insofar as it could fit inside the hilt)! After that (as we all know), the blades would just be glued in, with no fuss about handle scales, pommel caps, etc "fitting" on the sword. Of course, for hilts that required rivets (or were later modified with them), that's a whole nother issue involving messing with the blade itself. My point to all this is (and I thank those reading that have stuck up with my ramblings), that due to how incredibly diverse the blades on indian swords could be, owing further to how fundamentally non-preferential the hilts of most indian swords were (within reason), it is ultimately IMO rather silly to draw lines in what is really a spectrum or continuum of swords that can all have relatively quite different blade shapes and sizes from one another. In my opinion, it is better to arrange sword forms via the manner of use and hilt shape than strictly the blade shape. This given that, for example, we know via traditional indian swordsmanship that most straight-bladed tulwars weren't thrusted with, and thus their use was ultimately interchangeable with the more common saber-bladed tulwar form. Granted, truth be told most indian swords were used in the same manner (of chopping/slashing/cutting/etc), so I suppose my system isn't really 100% foolproof.

IMO though, Stu's tulwar is indeed a tulwar, just a tulwar with a straight blade. Or, if we really need to be pedantic/super descriptive, it's a straight-bladed tulwar with three fullers arranged in a manner suspiciously similar to that of a takouba :).

Nihl,

Your "ramblings" are perhaps the most coherent description of these swords that I have read. Thank you for making sense of a subject that has bothered me for some time.

Ian