There are several types of katzbalger pommels known, so also different types of grip caps as well steel katzbalger grip endings, integrated in the grip.
There are probably enough examples not yet known either!

it would be great to have the different types illustrated with examples.

best,

I thought that was exactly what I had been doing here all of the time, and I also gave the respective dates and references ... :confused:

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

Of course this thread is a great base for research, probably the best I know.
I meant to classify the different types of katzbalger pommel caps and grips!

best,
Jasper

Hi Jasper,

I know what you meant but again, that's what I did giving dates and pointing ot the form of the pommel and hilt.
The types you posted now have Ottheinrich type fluted and rounded pommels and hilts and can be safely attributed to the early 1530's. The lower to with their sideguards are transition types to usual swords (Katzbalgerdegen).

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

For me it is not so much about the dating. most of it is made ​​in less than 3/4 of a century. more interesting is to identify and indicate the trends in those hilt types.

best,

I also did my best to illustrate that evolution as well.

m

There are many valuable illustrations on the 10 pages on which many different types can been seen . however a short and concise classification or typology overview I have not found.I will try to make one if I find some time.

best,

That would be great indeed!

m

I recently found an interesting landsknechts dagger scabbard.

Precious item, Jasper ... and very rare, i guess !
Thanks for sharing

Hi Jasper,

I noticed that item when it was still in an online auction. Some of the decorative elements remind me of Oriental influence.

They seldom appear on the market.
What approximate date would you assign to this object?

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

that is a very difficult question.
this sheath I saw for the first time at Christies a few years ago, as part of a lot of 5 daggers. the dating could by christies expert not exactly be given at the preview. The listing at ebay was a medieval knights dagger but this is too early.
There is not much reference on this half round scabbard of lands knecht type as well(half round because the iron sheath had to cover as well a small knife and a skewer for use in a miltary camp.)
here is my attempt:
there are only two iron relief hammered half round scabbards I know of.
one dagger+ hammered in relief iron scabbard is in the walters art museum dated in the beginning of the 16thC and another one is auctioned at HH lot 351 16 mai 2003, dated end of the 16th century.
Also some scabbards of this type can be seen on pictures of Hans Doering all dated around 1545.

So I keep it on mid 16th century, but it can be + or - 50years. ;)

best,

Hi Jasper,

Here is an extremely similar sheath from the collection of a friend of mine, and it bears the date 1681 (!), which should make us very careful about dating items that soon turned into traditional objects.

Best,
Michael

Hi michael,

thank your friend for sharing this scabbard.
Actually this beautiful scabbard looks more like the high relief sheath that was auctioned at Hermann Historica. but you're absolutely right because this model scabbard has been made for 200 years, makes ​​it very difficult to date.

The very pronounced rings on my scabberd ( the design, I also noticed before on armour but try to remeber where), and the longer backpart for getting easily acces to the smaller knife and skewer, which both can been seen on Doering's drawings and the walters museum example, makes me date it to the mid 16th century.

here is also another basic version from chateau castlenaud.

best,

Hi Jasper,

Yes, the Castelnaud sheath retains notable roped and other early Renaissance decorative elements that clearly assign it to the 1530's, give or take a decade.

Thanks, and best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

This is the dagger belonging together with the sheath.
The model of the sheath looks primarily 16th century, but when I see it together with the dagger, I think a 19th century reproduction can not be excluded.

best,

Hi Michael,

I just remember where I have seen that similar "dot in line" design from my scabbard, it was on one of the pommels you placed from the Luzern Museum and on a 1/2 sword.

best,

Exactly, Jasper,

These are some of the decisive Early Renaissance elements!

And you are right, of course: that dagger is 19th c. fantasy.

Best,
Michael

Oh, i wish i could find a genuine hilt for my katzbalger :shrug:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14555

You are right, i have posted my (hilt) question on the wrong thread, Michl :o .
Both my query and your reply are now in the right place ... including your lovely pictures :) :cool: .


.

Thanks for your advice, Michl. Since you told me this in the first place i tuned the grip wood a little bit; the results are not so famous. I didn't apply the cord binding and i am not sure i would do a decent work.
But what i find less comfortable, more than the handle, is the iron hilt; it looks clumsy, with that large and non harmonious figure 8 and only twisted in one of the arms :shrug: .
Concerning the blade, i rubbed it with soap soaked Arbo and after applied the olive oil. It got a relatively brighter and much better look, no doubt.

Hi Michael and Hi Fernando,

beautiful landsknechts saber what you have posted, a while ago, a similar type has been offered on ebay.
These swords date back to around 1550, at least after 1549 as the first datable illustration with this inner guard of norman type 17 is in the portrait of William Oberst Froehlich by Hans Asper of Zurich dated 1549.

best,


@ Fernando,
I also think that if you carefully clean your katzbalger, not overclean(= a kill) of course, you do not believe what you see. ;)

Hi Jasper,

Thank you so much, I overlooked that! Was it on Ebay.com? What did it fetch?

It is doubtlessly a strikingly similar piece to that of my friend!

Did you notice it on Ebay, 'Nando?

Best,
Michael

I wouldn't; i am not an Ebayer :shrug: .


.

Neither am I ...

m

Fascinating piece though.
Thanks for sharing, Jasper

Noted :cool:

I have sent a few pictures of my scabbard to JP Puype the former curator of the Army Museum, and author of Arms and Armour of knights and Landknechts.

here is a quote from his mail reply( I have translated it from Dutch into Englisch);

Finally, the sheath (P1020890 pictures and -889), I think a good example of a sheath for a landsknecht. Only we know too little sheaths of landsknechtdaggers for this one to be called typical or atypical , but it seems OK to me, I think the sheath dates back to the mid-sixteenth century.

I am currently working two days a week at the archeology department of the municipality of Amsterdam on the handling of the weapon finds from the north south line. Among the many hundreds of objects I have a sheath of a landsknecht dagger identified, please note almost identical to the sheath of such a dagger at the Army Museum, see my latest book Cat.73, p.234-237 Arms and Armour of knights and Landknechts (thanks for your compliment!). I attach a scan of the magazine which I describe below nr.350 a rough sketch of the sheath that I have made. The service had indentified the object initially as " flag shoe", or as also a tube to carry a flag pole.

Sincerely,
Jan Piet Puype.


best,

Wow, that's what I call a well-based piece of information! :)

m

A fine hand-and-a-half sword, ca. 1530, part of a polychrome wooden statue of a knight, photographed by the author in the Museum of Weissenburg, Bavaria.

Please note the knife and bodkin in their separate compartments of the sheath!

Best,
Michael

One of several known variants of the Lucretia Borgia motif with a fine dagger.
painting by Lucas Cranach the Elder, 1530's.

m

Amazing details! Most likely an ear dagger. Lucas Cranach Sr. is one of my favorites, his paintings have a special dark atmosphere.

Exactly, Tony,

He is one of my Early Renaissance favorites as well.

I assume it is no longer an ear dagger (for the 1530's-40's) but a rondel dagger - but that of course is not clearly visible.


Best,
Michael

Tony??? :D not me...
First I thought rondell, but there is a projection of the pommel that is in angle to the guard (otherwise the painter made a mistake), and check the posture of the fingers.

OK, and sorry for mixing your name up.

m

No problem, it happens.
BTW, this fabolus painting has just been just sold by Sotheby's New York for $5,122,500... :eek:

A 'Grosses Messer' with single-edged blade, two-edged at the tip, ca. 1490, preserved in the Vienna Imperial Armory, inv.no. A 129. Centrally fluted iron bird's head pommel, centrally fluted horn grip scales with characteristic hollow rivets and upward-turned shell guard.

Overall length 129 cm, width at the quillons 12 cm.


Best,
Michael

Absolutely a stunner, I have a passion for fighting messers. Do you know its measurements by any chance?

Sorry, I edited my post and added the measurements!

Thanks for reminding me!

m

Thanks Michael, I'm most curious to know its weight and point of balance!