Salaams Jim, Your advice and points of detail are respected and in particular upon the final instructions to get on with the research. I was particularly interested in the Hormuz and other visitors to Oman. I posted on# 164 a precis of such visitors activity viz

1.In 1878 a Mr Geary (editor of the Times of India) visited Muscat and wrote of the weapons he saw carried by locals ~ A favourite weapon is a straight broad two-handed sword, the sweep of which would take off a man's thigh or even cut him in two at the waist.The swordsmen carried over their shoulder small shields of rhinoceros horn 8 or 9 inches in diameter....

2.Captain James Welstead in 1835 at Jalaan Bani Bu Ali (on the Eastern edge of the Wahaybah) remarked on the Funoon, Razha, sword parade and dance that the blades of their swords are 3 feet in length, straight, thin, double edged and as sharp as a razor.

3.Mr Frazer who also visited Hormuz in 1821 (and Oman at the same time as Welstead in about 1835) described The Omani Garrison at Hormuz swords as similar to Scotish Broadswords and also described separately in Oman later the Ters buckler shields..

It is, however, those visitors remarks ( At para 1 and 2 above) that part cloud the issue since they were on scene for perhaps minutes or hours as onlookers rather than fully focussed on precise research on the subject of this dancing sword. In the case of the other (At para 3) could it be that he was viewing the Omani Short Battle Sword since it too looks like a Scotish Broadsword to the untrained eye and in the hands of quite physically small Omani men ? It is also possible that both visitors (1 and 3) were looking at the Old Battle Sword or the dancing sword~ it is not clear. It is however placed as a reference.

Co-incidentally I was researching a book detail last night and reccommend to Forum Ian Skeets Oman Before 1970. The End of an Era. (actually a rewrite of Muscat and Oman which was a far better tittle as it describes in 3 words the immense difference between the Coastal belt Omanis and the Interior Omanis in history.

This is a masterful work full of incredible detail and with an eye on the virtually mediaeval state of the country only about 50 years ago with anecdotes on its ancient history quite new to me. He very much is aware of the mythical nature of Oman and the fables and pure storytelling that has gone on down the ages.

In one such story an amazing fact has surfaced concerning the Saif Yamaani (The Old Omani Battle Sword) and its possible manufacturing base.

In Omani History there is a story about Malik bin Fahm the founder of Oman who originally lived in Yemen. One day one of the tribesmen complained that one of Maliks men had killed his dog. Malik was mortified and complained that this was an outragious insult and that he would leave the country immediately~ and joined by a large party of his followers he duly did... East to Oman. A fanciful reason to leave notes the author however that the likely reason in fact was the collapse of the Mehrab dam. In truth the dam did burst however more gradually than is imagined and could have taken 300 years to finally become useless...There may well have been a large early exodus and at the same time a gradual follow on..over 3 centuries. Dog or no dog Malik left "in what they say" was the second century a.d. On arrival near Nizwa Malik became aware that the Persians were centred in Sohar and other garrisons and wrote to the Marzaban(Persian Governor) giving him notice of his intent to settle in Oman and if he didn't like the idea they would have a battle... To cut a long story short there were several battles in which the Persians were completely routed elephants 40,000 men and all..after which the Omanis settled on a happy ever after note and Malik lived til he was 120.

His spirit is alive in that region today and people of the Azdite or Yemeni tribes will swear he was their great great grandfather in a bewildering mathematical exercise depending on their imagination... however, that is not important... Malik is.

He was decended from the Azd tribe as part of the Qahtan line of Arab ancestry tribes usually referred to as Yemeni in that they settled in Yemen. The other line from Adnan originally settled in northern Arabia and referred to as Nizari. Both lines settled in Oman; Malik bin Fahms Yemeni Azdites being one of the settlements in that line. As timelines go that puts us somewhere in the mid 2nd century to the mid 4th allowing for myth and legend and history mixed...So what does this have to do with swords...?

Near Nizwa, the often capital of the Interior, and later seat of Ibadiism, and a production area for copper and iron objects where the bellows was an early discovery in furnace production, is a small town called Izki; one of the oldest Omani towns. One of its quarters is called Yemen. Another is called Nizar even to this day. Each belongs to the direct decendant tribe Beni Ruwaha and Beni Riyam; Qahtani and Nizari direct decendants !

Later the Omanis rose up under Immam Julanda against the Iraqi garrisons subjugating the country in about 751 a.d. that the weapons they used were called Sayf Yamaani The Old Omani Battle Swords. It is postulated that they were made not in The Yemen but near Nizwa at Izki in the quarter called Yemen. Research in that direction is ongoing. :shrug:

I further submit that the reference book Oman before 1970 The End of an Era, by Ian Skeet, be logged with research and for bibliography.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Gentlemen thank you so much for your understanding and agreement that the discussion itself here is paramount and must be carried forward most productively without polarities. Thank you very much for the kind words Lofty, however my 'knowledge' is simply a compendium of that of others which is gathered over the time I spend in researching in order to write here. As I haved noted, I learn from the valuable input of members here and assemble material and observations collectively to form my own perspectives, which can and often will readjust according to degrees of plausibility with information at hand.

The quotes I provided are of course compelling in suggesting that the straight sa'if commonly termed in most references the 'kattara' has indeed been a combat weapon in its well established configuration. The reason I placed these references is that in the study of arms, as I was once told, a writers responsibility is to present not only his views in supporting his theories or thesis, but those opposing as well in order for the reader to properly evaluate the material.

As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, these venerable narratives may have been impressions perceived in less than optimum circumstances for establishing broadly based opinions or observations. While they offer the implications that these swords had blades which did indeed vibrate in accord with the dynamics of the war dance as well as serve in combat, the comments concerning the nature of them only vaguely suggests that imported trade blades were among the weapons seen, not necessarily all of them.

I would however note here in the comments by Mr. Fraser suggesting the comparison of the Omani swords to those of the Scottish Highlander would seem to be to be referring to the baskethilt broadsword, but I believe the comments were directed to the blade, and of course not the hilt. What I believe was meant was that the appearance of the blades in thier profile, size and even in many of the markings on them pointed toward thier being like those produced in Germany for the Scottish swords. Mr. Fraser clearly was familiar with Scottish broadswords as his mention of the 'Andrea Ferrara' marking was a specific not commonly known in general parlance concerning these swords beyond those who had actually seen and handled them.
Having considered these facts, we simply cannot determine which type of hilt the Omani's had mounted on these blades, only that the blades used were apparantly in large degree German imports, and appear to have had the capability to vibrate in accord with the action seen in the swords used in the war dance.

I have tried to learn more on the term 'halab' as used in Elgood to describe blades as previously mentioned, however it seems most references such as Stone etc. claim it refers to a Sikh type sword in India. That reference is of course vague in itself as there are actually no specific sword types attributed to Sikh use alone. I am wondering if the term may have been adopted to refer to a blade with characteristics of types which had come from India and had become used in that parlance in Arabia?

Thank you again guys,
All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ last point first ~HALAB the old name or original Arab name for Aleppo in Syria. viz Aleppo is the common modern-day English name for the city. It was known in antiquity as Khalpe, Khalibon,[12] and to the Greeks and Romans as Beroea (Βέροια). During the Crusades, and again during the French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon, the name Alep was used: "Aleppo" is an Italianised version of this.

The ancient name of the city, Halab, is also its Arabic name in the modern day. It is of obscure origin. Some have proposed that Halab means 'iron' or 'copper' in Amorite languages since it was a major source of these metals in antiquity. Halaba in Aramaic means white, referring to the color of soil and marble abundant in the area. Another proposed etymology is that the name Halab means "gave out milk," coming from the ancient tradition that Abraham gave milk to travelers as they moved throughout the region.[13] The colour of his cows was ashen (Arab. shaheb); therefore the city is also called Halab ash-Shahba ("he milked the ash-coloured").

Whereas I cannot find precise information about Omani blades from there it would make sense that there were some perhaps in the Shamshir variety and as a concoction of swords also through Iran since the Shamshir of Safavid form was made by a famous Iraqi swordsmith in the Safavid royal court and his stamp typically copied down the ages.

On the subject of the witnesses in the 19th C in and around Oman and Hormuz I agree that it is interesting but hugely difficult to substantiate and would ask that caution be duly observed. I find it odd that on a single visit a sword blade mark could be identified such as "Solingen" or "andrea ferrera" (probably in style) by someone unaccustomed to the traditions and idiosyncracies in Omani sword work... Perhaps like others (e.g.Burton?) there has been a tendency to embelish a story later? Perhaps he saw one straight variant (the dancing Sword ) or two ( e.g. Also The Old Omani Battle Sword) ? I think at best we can only hold these anecdotes up and hope a light shines through them at some future researched point.

It occured to me when I was researching claymore swords and as a spin off on the European Forum delving into Falchion and Malchus I ended up on a forum search looking at Italian blades and how strikingly similar they were to some straight Red Sea blades I have seen hilted on Omani long hilts. Schiovana blades.

As observed I can report no clear link (as yet) for Omani dancing blades to European factories though I believe a good reference is available on the subject.(German Sword Makers?) I have only identified local manufacture and some itinerant work by Zutoot and pre about 1970. All my references outline dance not war though the Museum mentions European blades it is not specific and could simply be referring to curved Kattara blades. I dont have the Elgood straight sword picture and wondered if that could be published here please?

I am sifting through the book by Ian Skeet on Oman before 1970 and turned up another small gem regarding the Khojas of Muscat... a trader network of families now itegrated into Omani Society along with The Baluch and Persian Baharina. The Khojas are Hyderabadi leading merchant class. ( Thus the Hyderabad swords linkage could be clear) Without these now integrated groups and of course the Indian contingency, Oman before 1970 would have ground to a halt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Notes;
1. Halab detail courtesy Wiki encyclopaedia.
2. Khojas detail etc courtesy Ian Skeet. Oman before 1970.

Salaams Iain, Apologies as I missed this post ... I have no problem with this sword as a weapon at all... though I have no actual proof that it was done for Omanis by Omanis but it may have been. Equally it could have been done elsewhere..For sure its a german blade and I have one similar but with the more typical mediaeval styling and fullering. I know one ancient blade that has been coupled onto an Omani hilt on this thread at # 228 and #229 and I know who did the work and why. Whilst there are perhaps original conversions out there (based on the spoils of war winner takes all ) there are also commercial reasons for knocking out complete switch rounds as they occur. Muscat has been doing this "prolific and sustained" for almost 5 decades. I would be remiss for not pointing this out. That is why I say this is an Omani Old Battle Sword Hilt with an Ethiopian blade of German origin.

Your last paragraph assumes a lot more than I am prepared to' since you may have confused the matching of outside blades onto Omani long hilts which as you know I have placed in different category to weapons being either dancing swords in terms of the straight flexible sayf and more or less Iconic dress swords in the case of the curved and various Kattara though some I agree (those with quillons) can be weapons... We know the discussion etc etc The point being that I am certain that the Red Sea stiff blades are not dancing swords not favoured by Omanis and therefor tourist swords... Ironically they were probably weapons before being re-matched re-hilted.

An interesting question arrises over origin of the Red Sea stiff blades as undoubtably many are German (Solingen) however some look like Italian Schiovana. Loads of blades and swords have arrived over the years from the Yemen and have been rehilted in Muscat...I have two ethiopian blades German origin hilted on Indian Tulvar hilts (In Muscat) I know for sure that Omani men discard immediately a stiff blade as unworkable since they dont buzz..for dancing. I witness this daily in my own store as do my friends that own stores in Muttrah though in reverse since they sell lots of them... to tourists. One of our best friends in Muttrah and his father before him stretching back to 1970 have sold hundreds of these mixed "cousins"... They ought to know since it was (and is) their workshop that fitted them up with Omani hilts. Consequently in interior Oman and souks other than Muttrah(and possibly Nizwa thesedays) these Red Sea Cousins mis-matched onto Omani hilts do not appear ! They are totally tourist swords. This is not to say that this in any way influences or changes how swords in other countries are viewed by their own people... Its only the Omani viewpoint I express... and supported by the National Archives and 3 million Omani people :D

It further occured to me that people have missed a couple of important details in that the original Omani Battle Sword in that its origin as a design I have shown is 751 ad (The first Immam Ibn Julanda etc etc ) but that it continued to be used but more importantly repaired, broken and renewed down the ages somewhere...and its name Sayf Yamaani could give a clue ( I discovered a place near Nizwa called Yemen.. Maybe thats the spot... or Yemen Hadramaut... we dont know.. This is the only true Omani Battle Sword that I can identify. The Sayf Yamaani. It still gets the Icon treatment even today... We have one in our own workshops being done right now... for me !

The second point is that swords were not the main battlefield weapon ..The Spear .. Unfortunately it has dropped off the radar but only since I have been unable to get to that subject and the information has been scarce because it is almost forgotten... Its fall from grace courtesy of gunpowder and failure to be continued as Iconic ( rather impractical !) have allowed it to sink into obscurity. Therein lies the main battlefield weapon of Oman before gunpowder eventually ousted it..


Regarding hilts .. As its a straight blade there are no problems with hilts ... Most of the 20 or so swords I have had through my hands didnt have them or the hilts were recent (50 to 100 years) I have one complete in the TRM in Kuwait through our store we used to have in al ain.
Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

Yes I was actually thinking of the swords from posts #228 and 229. Specifically the two Old Style hilts on European blades. European blades are obviously known in the old mounts. (I'd be careful with that 751A.D. date still.. But I've said that more than a few times already! :D).

I don't disagree with anything you've written regarding the new style mounts and Omani preferences for dance swords. My interest is still in the transitional phase between the two saif styles. Obviously the amount of reworking old blades into hilts for the last 50 years or so, makes things difficult to puzzle out.

Good point about the primary weapons, actually if you recall a few pages back in this thread I suggested the rise of firearms probably lead to the dance style blades as the sword decreased in actual battlefield importance.


Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ I have the match dates of these weapons at # 228 and 229 from the Muttrah workshop owner and it is about 2000; only 12 years ago... They came as blades from Yemen. They roughly follow the Sayf Yamaani style in one case the centre sword whilst at top the long hilt is Solingen ...and done for a tourist ( I actually know the tourist owner!) The weak lower blade at reference is a possible contender as a replacement for the Omani Battlesword from European sources but is as yet unsubstantiated. At the same time I am aware of the weight of evidence that suggests the European trade Blade influx everywhere from the Museums through to respected volumes on Islamic Swords. It is like looking at UFOs ! Every one of the interloper blades falls short on fact. They are either fitted as tourist weapons as late as last week ! and have come down the red sea and been rehilted often in Muttrah sucking in blades from Yemen and sucking in tourists in the souk !

Having said that; should evidence of a Trade Blade appear I will be the first to publish the fact to forum... as yet ... nothing.

Last week we had the copywright people in here and "lo and behold" Oman will stamp soon all Omani work from a date to be confirmed but that is hundreds of years too late years for this weapon and others though occasionally you get a signature on old Khanjars. There is one sword with a circular stamp that I can't decipher and I thought the Forum owner would have responded but to no avail as yet. I believe the centre of manufacture was Nizwa and its nearby town of Izki offers some clues as posted previously. Could it be that Sayf Yamaani = Izki Near Nizwa in the quarter called Yemen and predating Islam by about 400 years with that name.

As you know; I view the fighting weapon and the dancing weapon quite differently and it is in the transitional period ( pure guesswork at this point) that things get interesting. Was it 1744 / 1799 the bracket of time in which the Busaidi dynasty took control or before or after? Was it Yaruuba; the previous dynasty? Is it neither and associated only with the Funoon and therefor the Ibaathi seat at Nizwa? When did the Old Battle Sword succumb or give over its possition in the Funoon to the new flexible Sayf wa Ters?

At whatever date ... say circa 1750ad for argument sake (though its a guess) the design was approved for a non fighting pageantry sword. The Old Battle sword continued as a weapon but faded on the pageant side being superceded, however, it was adopted as an Iconic dress sword with the royal hilt as at thread...# 211... to date ! We know who instigated the Royal Hilt Khanjar and when so it is likely the two hilts happened together. They are virtually identical. Therefor we have the date of both the Royal Khanjar and the Omani Battle Swords Iconisation.

The question arrises on replacement blades on the Omani Battle Swords (Sayf Yamaani) In the biggest collections of these weapons comprising between 20 and 30 weapons each ... there are no thin replacement blades of European nature. Rumour has it that a skinny quite useless blade appeared from Europe (17th C ?)... and this is born out by at least one collector who simply refused to have that type in his collection. I have pictured a peculiar couple of swords in Muscat one of which may be the style being talked about. Some replacement european blades look very meaty and as in the case of your German trade blade seem to fit the bill. As to accuracy/authenticity or if we are being duped?... I caution beware. The answers are still out there...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

#229, the triple fullered short blade... Doesn't look like any Omani blade I've seen before. If it was, it would be flat like all the other older saif blades...

Salaams Iain ~ Yes I agree however it is a very nice sword ... They matched that very recently. :rolleyes: I would have that in my collection any day but it is an interloper. A great example of a fake match up. Classic ! It also has the passau wolf mark though these are commonly faked here. I reckon its some sort of European blade scooped up in the Yemen souks for Muttrah rehilt and sale ... Someone will walk away with what they think is a genuine Omani Battle Sword...It aint ! such is life. :shrug:
Omani Battle Swords aren't flat.. moreover, they are a peculiar broad wing shape in cross section making them quite powerful weapons actually..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I see now you edited your original post, interesting, that it's a recent match, that info wasn't included the first time you'd posted images of the sword so I'd assumed your impression was it was an old mount.

So just to clarify it's not only blades being mounted in new style hilts, but also the old style hilts as well.... Makes you wonder what they are taking the old hilt off of...

Salaams Iain; Oh yes absolutely...Sayf Yamaani. I was after a few hilt only items as I had some Old hilt parts but incomplete... The hilt is in two halves and often I come across half a hilt and as can be seen in the picture there is a half a hilt so they have the same problem... They had a few spare hilts a few months ago... and one you can see matched onto the triple fuller job... I rang them up following my post on the subject and asked when they did the work ... very recent was the reply.

The more I delve into Schiavona blades the more I suspect that blade being a fit for some worked onto Omani long hilts masquerading as dancing swords.. See Schiavona for comments #9 last photo ; at the European forum.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

This continues to be a fascinating discussion, and Ibrahiim thank you for the information on the 'halab' blade designation.

I wanted to note with regard to the narrative quotes I included in my earlier posts from contact with Omani forces by Mr. Fraser. While his visit may have been brief, it would seem that details such as the mention of Solingen marks and the Andrea Ferara would not have been included if not actually seen. In a cursory observation, as far as I have seen, such specific details would not have been noted as the comparison to Highland broadswords alone would have sufficed. As I mentioned, I would suspect Mr. Fraser had first hand knowledge of these swords, and while clearly a presumption, it is worthy of note that his name is from a prominent Scottish clan.

I am curious on the most commonly seen cross section on the old battle sayf yemani described as wing shape, would this mean lenticular? and presumably with fuller (s).

I have been doing some research on the flexibility of the German blades and in "Reports on the Paris Universal Exhibition" (1867) Vol.4, pp.179-80 the 'Report on Portable Arms' by Capt. V.D.Majendie, R.A. notes:
"...as however the flexibility of a blade depends after its quality, upon its transverse section and as Solingen exhibits swords which will bend almost around a mans body, it would seem as though all the flexibility that could possibly be desired can be obtained without any admixture of iron".

It would seem that these Solingen blades, many of which were destined to many markets throughout Europe, reflect the flexible nature of the Solingen blades apparantly present at this time, probably before and later as well.
Egerton (1885) describes an Arab sword from Sudan, presumably actually a kaskara, with 3 foot long blade of flexible steel believed European and probably from Solingen. It is known that in the 1780s in England during the so called 'sword scandals' with English blades vs. German imports, much of the testing on the blades was on the flexibility.

The questions remain... were the blades seen in these early reports on Omani broadswords German imports; were they combat reliable; and equally were they able to produce the vibrations and sound desired for the 'war dance'? While thus far we have said that German import blades were too stiff for dance swords, however it seems accounts of the German blades indicate good flexibility.

It is thought than one of the primary entrepots for these German import blades was Egypt, as it had been from earlier times, in the period of these narrarives as well. There are accounts of German blades being sold at the Shendy center in northern Sudan in 1814, suggesting these blades coming into these regions from Red Sea trade. These trade networks also sent blades into Arabia usually via Yemen, with caravans eastward.

I am somewhat doubtful of the potential for schiavona blades, though it is tempting to consider some of the early blades might have entered North Africa. What is important to note here however is that these 'schiavona' were primarily backswords, that is single edged. I do not believe a single edged sword would have been considered for the Omani long hilt dance sword as these backsword blades are notably rigid for thrusting, as were many British and European cavalry swords for dragoons of 17th and 18th centuries. While for a time at the end of the 19th century there were attempts to align the schiavona and the Highland broadsword, it was quickly proven that the two swords, though both basket hilts were in no way connected.

It remains unclear whether the German blades in Omani swords would have been sufficiently flexible for the war dance events, but the suggestion remains that the action of vibrating them did take place before combat use.
It also remains suggested that the swords for the pageantry dancing did not use these import blades, and were likely locally made. The conundrum is of course whether battle swords were separate entities from the dance swords, or whether the two were one in the same.

The old battle sayf, in its distinct hilt which appears to be a traditionally held form that is likely from considerable antiquity also remains elusive in establishing its verifiable presence in place from the 8th century, but the history of these regions offers compelling potential of that being the case.
As we have noted, it does seem these did acquire import blades in some degree, but it is unclear whether these hilts were on the swords described in the forementioned narratives.

All the best,
Jim

There are two points I have mentioned before but I think need to be mentioned again.

1. Blade markings - there is no reason for fake running wolves and other European marks to show up on native made Omani saif blades unless European blades were already in circulation in Oman and widely regarded as a benchmark for quality.

2. A shift in blade profile to something remarkably similar to the European trade blades of the era, the sudden use of fullering where previously there was none and patterns such as the triple fullered blades which closely resemble European imports into the Red Sea region, even though most of the blades on Omani saifs are native made.

Salaams ~ I have no idea who placed or why the running wolf appears on some blades and not on others. The majority dont have it. Many other blades coming down the red sea have it... and on arrival they have been cross hilted matched onto Omani long hilts. There is the example of the tripple fuller at 228 but as you know this blade isnt Omani..I will try to find out who put the fake stamp on that one...if it was done in Muttrah or it arrived like that.
The fullering is a question. It was done to dancing swords thats for sure. In addition late Sayf Yamaani were fullered though early examples not it seems... I cannot draw a link to European blades as yet... neither to the old or new swords (of the type Sayf Yamaani and sayf dancing sword). Research continues.

Salaams,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Excellent points Iain! and I need to use these concise methods of asserting key points that you guys have well established as effective in moving forward with this complex discussion. However, old dog...'new', or better , different, tricks :) Its the writer in me :)

I would like to note first of all that this discussion is an absolute gift, as even in the 90s, the subject of Omani swords was a complete mystery, and these were anomalies among ethnographic weapons. Even Elgood in writing his book on Arabian weapons (1994) noted that the history and origins of these swords were unclear, and even asking Omani personages about them when he was in Arabia researching gave no clear answers. I recall that even when one of these cylindrical hilt swords turned up (including one I obtained) it was a major event among collectors, and these were considered 'rare'. In recent reading on Arabian history, Oman is scarcely mentioned as far as I could find in the references I used. It is mentioned how difficult it was for anyone to get in there, and these were prominant figures in the academic world.

What I do know is that the Omani swords I saw around those times, including the one I had, seemed invariably to have Solingen 'type' blades. I also had a pata which had a blade of 'Solingen' type ,again, with the three central fullers and the often seen cosmological array in motif with sun, moon and stars. This seemed to of course suggest that the blades entering the Red Sea trade were indeed filtering into North Africa for kaskaras and takoubas as well as into Ethiopia, Arabia and to trade moving toward India and the western trade centers there.

Concerning the use of the familiar markings, in this case particularly the 'Passau wolf'. As has long been well established, these highly stylized zoomorphic marks, usually chiselled free form, when entering other cultures departed thier original intent as quality oriented guild marks. They assimilated quite understandably into the native parlance common to the spectrum of beliefs or perceptions held in those contexts. Typically these were magical or talismanic beliefs believed to represent power transmitted to the blade and the user. We have seen many examples of these kinds of interpretations with the various markings found on kaskara and takouba blades which commonly are described in native context, and are often native applied renderings of the long established repertoire of makings seen on European blades generations before. It is also is known that in many cases, certain makers would adopt certain markings, it was not necessarily a universal or random circumstance. Some makers actually had stamps used rather than the freestyle renderings, especially in the case of the 'dukari' or half moons which were indeed practically universal, however thier exact meanings could have wide interpretation.

In the case of the Omani sayfs, I personally believe that there was at some time in earlier years at least some presence of European blades, and while they of course would have been present on combat oriented swords, even if the pageantry profiled weapons were indeed a separate type weapon, at least some makers may have added them. If presuming that the war dance was performed by veteran warriors, it would stand to reason that these kinds of markings would be considered symbolic in terms of valorious service, and not necessarily in the same parlance as perceived on the combat blades.

With the recent changes in opening the long restricted boundaries in Oman, and the clearly described advent of burgeoning commercial trade with particular respect to weapons, it seems that the traditional aspects of these weapons have been dramatically clouded by those activities. I would presume that there would be wide variation in choice of blade types as well as adoption of select markings of as many interpretations as would be found in any modern commercial setting. There are of course going to be the usual ranges of skill, knowledge and resources of makers producing the products as well. It seems clear, as Iain has noted, that modern examples of these blades which have probably as Ibrahiim has asserted been produced locally for decades, if not even the last hundred years, were probably made for pageantry as the use of firearms had placed the sword in secondary status as a weapon in combat.
It seems with that respect, much as in North Africa, certain makers whose families had long standing following of traditions in producing blades might use these venerable markings while others with less distinct ties might not include them. It is the same with fullering, blade forms etc. these characteristics would follow practices of the maker maintaining his own traditions.

There you have it, concisely itemized :) oh well.

All the best,
Jim

This continues to be a fascinating discussion, and Ibrahiim thank you for the information on the 'halab' blade designation.

I wanted to note with regard to the narrative quotes I included in my earlier posts from contact with Omani forces by Mr. Fraser. While his visit may have been brief, it would seem that details such as the mention of Solingen marks and the Andrea Ferara would not have been included if not actually seen. In a cursory observation, as far as I have seen, such specific details would not have been noted as the comparison to Highland broadswords alone would have sufficed. As I mentioned, I would suspect Mr. Fraser had first hand knowledge of these swords, and while clearly a presumption, it is worthy of note that his name is from a prominent Scottish clan.

I am curious on the most commonly seen cross section on the old battle sayf yemani described as wing shape, would this mean lenticular? and presumably with fuller (s).

I have been doing some research on the flexibility of the German blades and in "Reports on the Paris Universal Exhibition" (1867) Vol.4, pp.179-80 the 'Report on Portable Arms' by Capt. V.D.Majendie, R.A. notes:
"...as however the flexibility of a blade depends after its quality, upon its transverse section and as Solingen exhibits swords which will bend almost around a mans body, it would seem as though all the flexibility that could possibly be desired can be obtained without any admixture of iron".

It would seem that these Solingen blades, many of which were destined to many markets throughout Europe, reflect the flexible nature of the Solingen blades apparantly present at this time, probably before and later as well.
Egerton (1885) describes an Arab sword from Sudan, presumably actually a kaskara, with 3 foot long blade of flexible steel believed European and probably from Solingen. It is known that in the 1780s in England during the so called 'sword scandals' with English blades vs. German imports, much of the testing on the blades was on the flexibility.

The questions remain... were the blades seen in these early reports on Omani broadswords German imports; were they combat reliable; and equally were they able to produce the vibrations and sound desired for the 'war dance'? While thus far we have said that German import blades were too stiff for dance swords, however it seems accounts of the German blades indicate good flexibility.

It is thought than one of the primary entrepots for these German import blades was Egypt, as it had been from earlier times, in the period of these narrarives as well. There are accounts of German blades being sold at the Shendy center in northern Sudan in 1814, suggesting these blades coming into these regions from Red Sea trade. These trade networks also sent blades into Arabia usually via Yemen, with caravans eastward.

I am somewhat doubtful of the potential for schiavona blades, though it is tempting to consider some of the early blades might have entered North Africa. What is important to note here however is that these 'schiavona' were primarily backswords, that is single edged. I do not believe a single edged sword would have been considered for the Omani long hilt dance sword as these backsword blades are notably rigid for thrusting, as were many British and European cavalry swords for dragoons of 17th and 18th centuries. While for a time at the end of the 19th century there were attempts to align the schiavona and the Highland broadsword, it was quickly proven that the two swords, though both basket hilts were in no way connected.

It remains unclear whether the German blades in Omani swords would have been sufficiently flexible for the war dance events, but the suggestion remains that the action of vibrating them did take place before combat use.
It also remains suggested that the swords for the pageantry dancing did not use these import blades, and were likely locally made. The conundrum is of course whether battle swords were separate entities from the dance swords, or whether the two were one in the same.

The old battle sayf, in its distinct hilt which appears to be a traditionally held form that is likely from considerable antiquity also remains elusive in establishing its verifiable presence in place from the 8th century, but the history of these regions offers compelling potential of that being the case.
As we have noted, it does seem these did acquire import blades in some degree, but it is unclear whether these hilts were on the swords described in the forementioned narratives.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim~ I regret I am a little delayed and behind by a post or two as I am in and out of Buraimi… When first I saw the name Frazer I had to look it up and immediately saw the significance in his name as Clan linked and thought that he must have known the significance of the Claymore as you say. He seems to be the only anecdotal link of substance though I am amazed that in one visit he apparently got down to blade inspections which has a peculiar ring to me and may be over icing on the cake, perhaps, done later? Artistic licence? I have to say that the dancing sword does look warlike (but it is not a weapon) and it could be this that he saw. On the other hand it may have been the Sayf Yamaani. I would say it was certainly one of the two or both. The anecdote is, however, placed well for future reference..

Omani Battle Sword blade. "Sayf Yamaani". Bearing in mind that it is described as designed/introduced in 751 ad and frozen till relatively very recently and even today being Iconized, therefore, many different variations must exist on the blade down the ages... Therefor it is accepted that many blades must have been repaired and replaced at various times and possibly by various makers. The early style had no fullers as technology may not have been there at such an early date... I have swords with no fullers. Some I have seen with fullers which are obviously later models. The Mark 1 style(so to speak) has apparently none. Even in the case of the fullered weapon it is non flexible and would snap after about 25 degrees of bend I suspect. The wing shape across the blade is critical since the middle of the blade is quite thick giving it the ability to chop and slash whilst the point capable of thrust and stab.

The German blade flexibility is interesting and I recall the story about the Shotley Bridge master at a sword expo where he had concealed a blade in his top hat such was its flexibility. .. and astounded clients and onlookers when he revealed it. However the Omani dancing blade is not a weapon and I have not yet seen a German blade that I can identify on any I have handled so far. Why would they want to weaponize a pageantry sword?

Any sword stamps that I have seen on flexible Omani Dancing Swords have been done locally. I have only seen German stamps on blades that have been brought in and put onto Omani hilts for the tourist market. I have not yet seen a flexible German blade matched to an Omani long hilt and used by Omanis for dancing and have that down to one simple reasoning~ The German sword was a fighting sword, a weapon of war…(if it exists) whilst the Omani dancing sword is a pageantry sword only.

I continue to look out for possible German blade replacements for the Old Omani Battle Sword without success… and fear that it could be only a rumour or that it simply was not a successful concept and died out … and vanished ~ Sunk without trace perhaps.. Though I have a hypothesis for the phenomena below.

Schiavona ~ I agree on your point about single edges and was about give up, however, on the final picture at my reference on Forum previously posted I also looked at Schiavona Sword Variations #1 on the European ; I noted a double edge Schiavonas which could be a style that has entered the equation… Rather a note on passing than a fixed idea..perhaps worthy of a look.

Upon the trade routes I have no questions and accept they were many and varied… What is apparently absolute is that whatever came down the trade route in the shape of a sword the Omanis would be certain to reject a blade not able to buzz in the pageant. I cannot see how these blades if they exist were perhaps then fitted to Sayf Yamaani as an alternative. I can see how they could have been bottled up in some warehouse store in Yemen or Saudia until much later..for rehilting and tourism.

I don’t believe the qualities are there inherent in dancing blades to even class them as fighting weapons. Being razor sharp is a red herring. Thin, bendy, not particularly well made and the only specific test being its flexibility ( and round tip) on long hilts.."for dancing and pageants only".

Hypothesis.
1. I would be blind however not to notice the plethora of blades with stiffer blades and points emerging on the market. Perhaps these Red Sea Cousins as I call them were intended for the Omani market in say the 19th C and having arrived in Red Sea environs were found to be unsuitable for Omani dancing swords and discarded in a warehouse until some entrepreneurial souk shop owner saw a potential market in foreign tourists?

2.Could it also be possible that these blades were fitted to Omani hilts in the 19th C and plied on the peripheral market around the Red Sea and Zanzibar Hub? Perhaps this would explain the conundrum though I have to say I have absolutely no proof. Slavery was still running at full tilt (and supported by the French) until late in the 19th C so perhaps this was a weapon carried by slaving crews …. What is for certain is that blades are and have been re-hilted in Muttrah Souk Muscat since 1970 (and or other centres) of this nature though I haven’t seen their original condition and what hilts they had if any.

Where I consider that confusion has reigned is, in part, because of the terminology since there are of course curved European Blades on Omani and Zanzibari hilts in Shashqa and Nimcha and Karabela forms coined "Kattara" by Omanis. ( naturally the other curved swords of Persian and Hyderabadi and also occasional Damascqi style were also named "Kattara")

Notwithstanding this hypothesis; My suspicion remains strongly that these are Red Sea variants; Yemeni or Saudia blades or a mixture of all the possibilities including German being hoisted onto the tourist market as fakes since 1970.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Jim ~ Your post is key to the understanding of Oman as a virtually closed country until about 1970.

A point that I should clear up is on the wolf view by Omanis who routinely used wolf skin on the abu futtila butt next to the cheek as opposed to their reaction to wolf attacks on their livestock (especially the Bedu) where the wolf would be ruthlessly hunted and once caught its head would be stuck on a pole to ward off other "evil influences"...In the case of inclusion on weapons and the "Passau Woolf" it seems clear that it is a talisman.

The Omani people will have had a lot of contact through meeting a lot of English (and French and other nationalities) with swords no doubt some of which had Passau Woolf marks and whereas they would not neccessarily have adopted the weapons they could easily have copied the mark.. They did the same with Raj Crown marks..It is pertinent to point out that the most efficient tried and tested weapons on the doorstep that they must have seen almost daily were the Indian Hindu dynasty weapons stretching back far into history... and how many of those extremely varied weapons were copied into the Omani armoury... None! bar the Hyderabadi shamshir and only because of the vast and growing importance of the Khojas in Muscat and that was essentially a court sword. The only thing they ever copied off an Indain sword was the Raj Crown... and they still do in Ras Al Khaimah.

The problem inherrent with asking Omani people anything is the syndrome of them agreeing to anything you want to tell them or ask them about ~which is only their polite way of dealing with something they dont know the answer to... Sometimes the answer to a how old is this ? sort of querry is limited to their own experience or that of their father or grandfathers time scale... How old is this Old Omani Battle Sword... 150 years, 80 years depending on who they think owned it...This is particularly when dealing with older people, who after all, had zero education and most stuff they know arrived in their knowledge base by myth legend or tradition... passed down through the ages embroidered and changed to suit the wind direction.. :)

Your well placed note on stamps and passau wolf comments reminds me how turbulent this subject can get as I have never seen a European stamp on a flexible dancing sword except in the case of one dodgey blade with european numbers on it.. all the other stamps are Arabian. Naturally I have to sideline swords that I know have been Omani hilted such as the Solingen combo sword earlier # 229; top picture.

As we cruise toward 10,000 hits on this thread I still see some interesting areas which need probing as to date; no one has pin pointed the production centre of the old or new Sayfs and work needs polishing on the weird blades at my earlier hypothesis and if there are any Schiavonas in the mixture... etc

I need to get into a couple of Museums and also examine data at the Funoon centre to see if clarity on dates can be obtained.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you very much Ibrahiim, excellent points and I think that the positions and observations are presenting great material to be considered as we move forward. We are still far from conclusions but the progress is great.

On the schiavona, there were of course variants, and while most I have seen were backswords, but some were broadswords. It is worthy of note that the schiavona itself was around before the hilt became fully developed, and again this is a term which became associated primarily with the baskethilt form. We know that anumber of blades were coming in from Italy into the Red Sea trade, but I think that these were powerfully usurped by the German blades in the 19th century.

I have been looking into Yucel in trying to understand more on the Abbasid swords which are believed to be the ancestor of the old Omani sayf, and found that the earliest surviving example of these is one attributed to Caliph Mu'awiya ibn Abi Sufyan, the first Umayyad caliph (reigned 41-60 hijral, 661-680 AD). This blade is shown in plate 24, described p.56, but the illustrations are not very good.

On p.54, it is noted that virtually nothing is known about the nature of Abbasid and Umayyad hilts, quillon blocks and scabbards, but of course the blades are represented among the swords in Istanbul. The blades were without fullers, and thicken at the center, which would I believe approximate the 'wing shape' you describe, and I think may be described as lenticular.

I am curious about the Omani old sayf, and whether there are examples of these hilts which are being suggested to have remained in situ since the 751AD date and if possibly somewhere in Oman. I cannot remember in earlier discussion whether we had determined if an Abbasid hilt had been located which conforms to the old Omani sayf hilt, naturally subsequent to Yucels's outstanding work in 2001. He unfortunately passed away that same year.

As always, adding material to be considered in the course of our discussions here.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ You may recall the #5 post on this thread where a Topkapi sword (which may on reflection be either in the Topkapi or the Istanbul military museaum or both and being Abbasid was compared favourably with the Old Omani Battlesword in 11 categories including similarities in hilt construction but certainly not with the Islamic Arched Pommel.. nor the turned down quillons but almost everything else including blade profile.
It is key to the early Ibn Julanda theory backed by the Funoon combined with the in situ frozen in time in Oman concept that the entire weapon emerges. In fact I chose the 751 date as an honorary point since it is likely that the weapon emerged sometime before and copied largely from the Abassiid and the earlier date of 620 has been considered with the first Islamic movement however as Ibn Julanda was the first Ibathi Immam 751 has been selected bearing in mind the likelihood of the hilt being virtuslly or potentially heraldic in nature which in itself would rock the foundations of heraldic symbols which insist rather on shields as being the objects of transmition. Not only is the Pommel the shape of the Abbasiid Islamic Arch..(not to be confused by later arches nor later (Islamic)battle helmets which didn't exist in the mid 8th C) but the Minarette form is also reflected in the hilt on earlier examples. I have placed several of these in private collections with the dots on the blades ... both in the blade tip and at the throat in single dots and others with a tripple dot at the riccaso.

The Umayyis swords and hilts are indeed difficult to trace as none exist.. as far as I know.

Work is ongoing with the term Sayf Yamaani though I get blank looks when I speak about the place near Iski, Nizwa and being the ancient old quarter called "Yemen" and likely to have been populated in about the 1st to 3rdC ad from the broken dam in The Yemen called Mehrib Dam and its corresponding exodus of many tribes to Oman (for Nizwa in particular).

We also know that the entire area of Yemen southern Oman and parts of Africa at the horn were called an as one throw away term The Yemen and the African Coast at the horn is often called the Yemen on old maps..

Nizwa region fits the bill because of its prowess in Copper and Iron smelting and because of the early bellows technique employed there. Of course that is not proven and other places may be responsible like Hadramaut or even Sri Lanka with advanced blown air furnaces in use early.

The very nature of an isolated religious grouping like Ibathism underscores the peculiar syndrome of this weapons isolation. Except for a small outpost of the same sect in North Africa the country was quite its own citadel and standing alone. After all; the point of the Abbasiid garrisons sent from Iraq was to primarily suppress the Omanis in that regard and the later raids by the Wahhabis was similarly inspired ( in 1865 they sacked Sur) though eventually that subsided though not without a fight. Coincidentally the seat of the Ibathi sects power remained at Nizwa down the ages.. making the conclusion perhaps easy to draw on the Sayf Yamaanis birthplace.. However, that is, as yet not proven.

One area neglected so far is the huge influence exerted by merchants from the largest influential group... India. In the Indian ocean they were called Banyans and if trade were to be conducted it was the Banyans doing it, often without the see saw politics and nonsense between Oman, France and Britain which at the best of times was farcical. :shrug:


I have just read an extraordinary article on www.jrpeterson.net which has some very interesting background on outsider groups integrating eventually into Oman and snippets on Zuttoot, Khojas, Baluchi and other important fringe set ups with mention of sword manufacturing in one anecdote..
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Dancing Swords. Omani Sayf.
 

Salaams Reference note for Forum library.
From http://www.thenational.ae/news/.../w...g-trade-in-rak
Anecdotal Evidence; The Omani Sayf; Dancing Swords Only.

Quote "RAS AL KHAIMAH // In the markets of the old town, swords are easily available and readily sold to mountain tribesmen.

"All Shehhi [tribesmen] should have swords," said Azziz al Shehhi, 22. "It's nice for dancing, not for fighting. These are for gifts, for celebrations."
Mr al Shehhi owns four swords, four traditional knives and two rifles that belonged to his father. But the party favourite was always the sword, an essential for any mountain celebration, he said.

Strong swordsmanship is the mark of a good wedding for mountain tribes like the Shehhu and Habus. Swords are not raised in combat, but thrown metres in the air and then caught.

The swords are forged in the workshops of the old RAK market, many of which have operated for more than three decades.
Shopkeepers must be licensed to sell swords, but are not required to keep records of how many they sell or to whom.
They make them according to demand. Some months they may sell only one or two, and other months they will sell dozens, especially in the summer wedding season.

Swords can be bought in glass cases as gifts and are a traditional reward at sporting events such as camel races. More often they are sold as an accessory for weddings, along with the canes and the yerz, a tribal axe.
Swords are sold blunt so men can catch them while dancing, but can be easily sharpened. Honing usually comes at the behest of elders, who want swords sharpened to a fine edge to honour their forefathers.
Zahee Ahmed, 28, of Pakistan, sells to tribesmen, sheikhs and tourists, as well as to shops in Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah. He said he had yet to hear of any case of swords being used as a weapon. "It's not dangerous," said Mr Ahmed. "We make them for celebration, not for killing. This is not for fighting, it is only for culture. The man is crazy if he will fight."
There is no age requirement on who can buy a sword, but some stores will only sell to Emiratis.

For many years, bargain hunters would often skip the markets of old RAK and buy from the family of Charchambi Daad Mohammed, a Baluchi axe and sword maker who crafted the weapons in his house.
Until last year, he roamed the streets of the Nakheel market with a bundle of swords and axes under his arm to be sold to whoever had the cash.
The swords business got a boost last December after Fujairah's first annual Al Saif Traditional Sword Competition, in which TV viewers and audience members voted by SMS for their favourite sword dancer.
RAK swordsmiths reported a sharp rise in demand for a month afterwards". Unquote. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams All ~ Note to Library; "The Al Bu Saidi Dynasty" start date of circa 1744 was previously considered as a possible start date on the sa'idiyyah hilt; royal khanjar and royal old omani battle sword iconic hilt. This is wide of the actual mark since it seems that the likely designer was the wife of the ruler who was in power from 1806 (though there were 2 shared years previous) to 1856. ~ Sultan Said's second wife Binti Irich Mirza who was Persian and also called "Sheherazade" and it appears she designed the hilt. That puts the design date at no earlier than the marriage in about 1850.
Thus the dates of both hilts are revised to Circa 1850.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Interesting, can I ask why it is assumed the designer was the wife?

Salaams Iain ~This is almost impossible to prove beyond doubt therefor I begin by saying that ~"It is said that"~ It seems she(Sheherazad) was bored with the usual khanjar form and using her Persian design ideas created what I can only describe as an Indo Persian hilt. Detail is scant since this lady seems to have run off with her lover back to Persia(aprox 1832) and when she was married only seemed interested in gallavanting about like a wild thing horseriding and so forth.(seems reasonable to me!) The Sultan(Bin Sayf) meanwhile went on to sire something like 36 children with other wives (none with her) though it looks like nearer 50 or 60, however, 36 survived his death in 1856 :shrug:

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note~ (Sayyid) Said bin Sultan Al-Said (Arabic: سعيد بن سلطان‎, Sa‘id bin Sulṭān) (June 5, 1797 - October 19, 1856) was Sultan of Muscat and Oman from November 20, 1804 to June 4, 1856. He became joint ruler of the country along with his brother Salim on the death of their father, Sultan bin Ahmad, in 1804. Said deprived his brother of joint rule on September 14, 1806.

In 1837, he conquered the town of Mombasa, Kenya. In 1840, Said bin Sultan moved his capital from Muscat, Oman, to Stone Town, Zanzibar. In 1840, he sent a ship to the United States in an attempt to establish a trading relationship.

Upon Said's death in 1856, his realm was divided: his third son, Thuwaini bin Said, became the Sultan of Muscat and Oman; and his sixth son, Sayyid Majid bin Said, became the Sultan of Zanzibar.

The National Museum of Oman in Muscat still houses numerous items of silverware and other possessions that belonged to Said.

Thanks for the clarification Ibrahiim. :) So this is basically one of those "legend has it" type of things?

Salaams Iain, It is rather odd. I knew about the story more than 25 years ago when I first really got interested in Khanjars and it seemed fairly common knowledge then... however people have short memories and I cannot find a reference to back it up except that on this forum there is an old reference citing the origin to the period of ruler at the time said bin sultan between 1806 and 1856. Certainly no pictures paintings or graphics of previous sultans have the royal hilt form but after that they do... and there are some graphics with that sultan in the royal hilt. The rumour was that a beautiful princess had designed the hilt and that she was Persian. What the rumour(if that is what it is) did not specify was that she had beeen divorced essentially for adultery and had gone back to Persia etc etc. in the date range outlined by me... I have raided almost every resource on the web to not much avail and will check it out fully on a future museum visit.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; Larry in 2005 on the "Khanjar Identification" thread #3 noted in very much the terms as I have ... quote "The story goes that the Persian queen of Oman, the loyal loving Persian wife of Al Bu Said Sayydi Ibn Sultan who reigned Oman in 1806-1856, thought that the classical Omani Khanjar, with the rather simple I shaped handles was boring, and designed a new and more flashy khanjar dagger for her husband birthday. The new style rapidly become very popular and its used was spread all over the Arabian peninsula." Unquote.

Intriguing tale, and as with most lore which has become entwined within the perameters of the popular culture of arms collecting and literature, there are always elements of fact embellished in degree. These things are often the bane of weapons scholars as many of these things were absorbed by early arms writers and adventurers in thier narratives, and became almost venerable cliche's which perpetuated with the growing interest in old arms.

Actually the first time I ever heard mention or use of the name Scheherazade was colloquially as an expression, and seems linked to the popular culture images from literature and I believe even theatricals much akin to the "Arabian Nights". If not mistaken, in this sense the name was emblazoned on at least one American bomber in WWII, and perhaps others, reflecting the well known presence of the famed name in those parlances.

This by no means intends to diminish the fascinating tales linked to these weapons, particularly the rich history of the khanjhar, however it is important to remember this perspective in further research as far as reconfirming elements and facts.

As always, magnificent insight into this amazing culture Ibrahiim, and excellent discourse along with great observations made by Iain. This truly is a most educating thread which I hope continues long, as it is an adventure in itself learning about this, until recently, relatively remote culture through these intriguing weapons and thier history.

All the very best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ Yes "elf layla wa layla" "The thousand and one nights" tales Scheherazade (Persian: شهرزاد‎ Šahrzād also called Shahrazad) is the legendary Persian queen and the storyteller and narrator of The Nights. She is the daughter of the kingdom's vizier and sister of Dunyazad(Persian: دنیازاد‎).She marries King Shahryar, who has vowed that he will execute a new bride everyday. For 1001 nights, Scheherazade tells her husband a story every night, stopping at dawn with a cliffhanger, forcing the King to keep her alive for another day.

It is quite odd since the Sultan apparently built baths for Sheherazade in 1850 at Zanzibar but the chronicles have her running off to Persia earlier than that... As a precaution and until I can unravel that error I have estimated 1850 as the rough date for the Royal hilt ~ I also find it strange that a Dynastic Hilt was designed by a wife of an important Sultan .. when she ran away with another man ! More work needed on this story! At least I have some roughly accurate names and dates to play with.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

In looking further into the 'Sheherazade' part of this story, this seems probably a bit of a red herring as the question is really whether the wife of Al Bu Sa'idi was actually the designer of what appears to be a variation on the hilt design. The mention of her being called 'Sheherazade' is not included in the mention in Larry's 2005 thread 'Khanjhar identification ', nor is the nearly verbatim paraphrasing by Oriental Arms in their description of this type taken from Elgood (p.83) who does not mention the sheherazade name either. Elgood cites his reference to the origins of this form and attributes to the Persian wife of the sultan (citing Ruth Hawley "Omani Silver" (Longman group, 1978). I do not have this reference so unsure what details of that reference are.
This tracing of references and sources is one of the best ways to check primary source comments which have often neen lifted and paraphrased to see what the original context was.

As the this Omani dynasty began in 1744, and it is claimed that the reigning sultan's wife, who was Persian 'designed' the hilt in the 1840s-50s? it does seem possible that the variation of the Royal Khanjhar as we are calling it came from that period. The reference to her being called 'Sheherazade' seems apocryphal and possibly a nickname from the Persian female character the 'Arabian Nights' tales.

Elgood (op.cit.p.83) describes the key features of the hilt on these Sa'idi khanjhars are the silver cones either side of the rounded horn pommel and the top crested with three silver balls, as well as filgree buttons on front.
He notes further that these are somewhat resembling the Mahri daggers of Al Mahra in Eastern Hadhramaut and Dhofar in Western Oman.
It is worthy of note that in addition to trade with India through Muscat, the Hadhramaut tribes, Yafa'i in particular, were long mercenaries to the Deccan in India. If one looks into the daggers of Deccani regions of the 16th century, the basic structure of the regular Omani khanjhar seems strikingly similar.

While the Sa'idi form of khanjhar (hilt) may have originated in the 19th century under the auspices of this ruler's reign, it seems doubtful that its design variation can be attributed to this or any particular person associated with Al Bu Sa'idi with any certainty. Also, it seems quite likely that the general hilt form of these khanjhars quite likely developed much earlier with the influence of the daggers of the Deccan known as 'chilanum' of centuries before. The decorative embellishments added later may have simply been to distinguish these important daggers to the standing rule of Al Bu Sa'idi, and which seems to have accomplished the perpetuation reflecting the style just as intended.


All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ! Not that we are unfamiliar around here with the concept of red herrings ~ but ~ The second or third wife of the ruler of Oman at that time Sayyid Said bin Sultan (who ruled the al busaiyyidi dynasty 1806 to 1856 when he died on board ship near Zanzibar and succeeded by 36 children according to references) was the daughter of Persian Royalty and her name was Sheherazad.

"It is said" that the Persian princess was responsible for the new royal hilt design.... and though a specific reference is avoiding me at the moment I'm sure it will surface to that effect as we go forward. I take the 1850 mark as somewhere to park this for the time being until clarity prevails. Some slight readjustment looks likely in the date by a decade or so earlier however that will probably pan out later. For sure there are no signs of this hilt until the one seen worn by the ruler in a picture viewable at images of him on the web and by subsequent rulers and others thereafter.

The hilt does look similar to other variants like the adjoining Saudia region close to Oman ( Habbaabi style; not to be confused with Wahhaabi ) but is said to have been concocted around Indian or Indo Persian fashion by his Persain wife. (it can only have been Sheherazade)

The reference http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....rsiaqajar.html indicates that she married Said Sultan in 1827 viz;

Shahzadi (name unknown), married in July 1827, Sayyid Said bin Sultan Al-Busaid, Sultan of Oman.

And that her father was viz;

HIM Shahanshah FATH ALI SHAH, 2nd Shahanshah of Persia 1797/1834, born 1771, married (amongst others) about 1797, Agaba Begum, daughter of Khan Ebrahim Khan, Khan of Qarabagh, married (b), Taj ud-Dawlah, married (c), Ziba Chehr Khanum, and had issue, 57 sons and 46 daughters. He died 23rd October 1834 in Isfahan and was buried at Qum.

Some time line confusion exists over when she left permanently and the web states in many references that the Persian baths in Kidichi, Zanzibar, were built for Sultan Said’s second wife Sheherazade, the daughter of a Persian Shah or Persia. This is claimed to be 1850 in a host of references apparently copied from the same source.

Thus the temporary allowance of 1850 attributed to the Royal Hilt appearance..which must be close.

An image appears with notes at http://safmuseum.gov.om/pop40.html on the provenance timewise but so far as I can see not absolute..on the Royal Hilt. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Absolutely outstanding and well presented research Ibrahiim!!!
It would seem that the 'red herring' would be from my own net :) and was by my presumption of the apparantly well established Persian name Sheherazade being fancifully woven into the stories on the origins of this distinct khanjhar hilt form. Obviously such a fabled name would be a select choice within regal families for a daughter, and such traditions run deeply.
My associations with the popular figure in literature and later even in theatricals and films then we can relegate to an interesting coincidence in name, not relevant to this research.

Returning to our case on this hilt form, it would seem that the terminus a quo for the introduction of these embellishments on the extant Omani khanjhar hilt form would correspond to the period of his marraige to this wife (1827-1836? depending on details of her departure with another suitor). There are no details of further specifics in Elgood, but I am wondering if the reference he often cites, "Tribes of Oman" (J.R.C.Carter, 1982) might have more. In any case, the 'design', which simply carries embellishments to the overall motif on the regular Omani khanjhar hilt, does seem to have attained great popularity and wide diffusion in its use.

Though this focus would seem to be outside the scope of this thread on kattara and the Omani old sayf, it is well placed in examining the context of events that may have bearing on the development of these swords as well.
It is great to have this kind of comprehensive dimension in discussions!

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim,
Yes this is quite a diversion though as you point out it is also important (Oh I think we just crashed through the 10 thousand barrier ! :) ) My money is on the second wife not the third (therefor not Scheherezade the Persian lady whos real name was Binte Irich Mirza ) because the second wife was the woman behind the throne and looked after affairs of state. Even if the Persian wife had her hand on the design it would never have got accepted into the Royal Household without the say-so of the second wife "azze binte sayf bin ahmed". It looks like Sheherazade was in fact the grand daughter of the Persian Shah and she had a lover .. disappeared back to Persia, became divorced, and apparently joined the army to fight against the Omanis... This lady certainly had attitude !!

It looks like circa 1840 / 1850 as a probable date bracket for the Khanjar and "Sayf Yamaani" (The Old Omani Battle Sword) Royal Hilt Forms. It can be assumed, therefor, that the Sayf Yamaani became iconized in that date period. It may indicate the date in which it ceased to be the weapon used in the Funoon Pageants and was superceded around that time by the straight sayf; The Dancing Sword. If that is the case this could also be the lynchpin connector to the long hilt migrating from the dancing sword to the curved Kattara.... and Kattara iconization to boot. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Old Sayf photo ... arriving soon !

Salaams all; Just about to post... A new variant in dancing swords... The "Abu Falaj". (The one with the irrigation channels) In this case three fullers which would normally be termed "abu thalaatha musayil" ...

In the Abu Falaj however the fullers run almost all the way to the tip. This makes for an extra springy blade ideal for the pageants.... picture on way....maybe today.... :shrug:

This is an old sword late 19th C. (Circa 1880)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams All ~ Here is a dilemma; The case for the Round Tip to Both Swords on;

1.The Old Omani Battle Sword; Sayf Yamaani. see photo below.
2.The Flexible Omani SAYF; The Dancing Sword. see photo below.

First I intend to show the similarity between the two swords above since the second superceded the first in the dance pageant(only) and it can be assumed that some similarities in design would be apparent.

Indeed both swords have 2 razor sharp edges and they both are called Sayf as the honorific flexible sword was given that in respect and honour of the users of the old weapon. ie the forefathers of the nation. Both use the famous Terrs shield and again in remembrance or the former system.

They both were the funun pageant weapons until one succeeded the other(circa 1840) and the only difference was that the old Sayf Yamaani at 1, was a Battle Sword...but is this the only similarity?

It can be argued that some parts of the hilt in the new sword are reminicent of the old... in the Islamic shape of part of the grip. It also could be said that the scabbards are identical in design except the new swords housing is simply longer; but is this all..?

What about the tip? We generally recognise the old sword as having a sharp tip... whilst the new sword tip is very round.

I will now make the case for a round tip on the old Omani Battle Sword and call into support 5 factors;

A. Fighting Style.
B. The Terrs Shield.
C. The Tip design on the New Sword.
D. Age, deterioration and wear.
E. The Funun Mimic Fight.

A.Fighting Style. I compare The Old Omani Battle Sword with the Roman Gladius which was essentially a spear pointed, short sword that had one "major strike"... The Thrust ..combined with the phalanx or defensive formation set behind a huge wall, line or block of defensive but manouverable "large shields".
This manouvre is not possible with tiny bucklers.( Terrs Shields see photo below) The major strike (The Thrust), therefor, is irrelevant in ancient Omani fighting style.

B.The Terrs Shield.The Old Omani Battle Sword used a small buckler shield(Terrs) and had no facility for phalanx protection thus it was used differently... mobile, fast moving swordsmen approaching an adversary rather like a boxer would today... darting in and out; slash and chop behind a fast worked buckler shield... no need for a sharp tip... Just slash and chop. No point in a point... so to speak !

C.The Tip design on the New Sword. I put it to Forum that the weapon had a round tip and many years later this was mirrored in the design of the new dancing pageant only sword. The fact that in the new sword design the dancing and mimic detail whereby the swordsmen can score a winning point by touching the opponents shield hand thumb is incidental and possibly invented after the fact but that the major element in the design is a direct and deliberate copy of the round tip.

D.Age, Deterioration and Wear. Old Battle Swords have some wear in the blades... noticeably because of sharpening(original width of blade can often be found just under the throat at the hilt where sharpening did not occur) and secondly shortening by wear and tear at the tip. It can be assumed that swords are up to one eigth of an inch narrower than before(sharpening) and up to 2 or 3 inches shorter at the tip.
The primary reason why these old blades appear sharp not round... is because of this shortening effect caused by age deterioration and wear. Indeed the tip section of say the final 12 inches of blade is quite a lot less thick than the rest of the blade making wear more likely over time.

E.The Funun Mimic Fight. The Funun mimic fight mirrors the technique outlined at B above in that swordsmen engage like dueling boxers in a mobile, fluid, fast moving, whirling encounter darting in and out and not employing thrust strokes at all. The technique is one of cut and slash working with a very fast Buckler Shield action.


Therefor I conclude that the Old Omani Battle Sword had a round tip, now degraded, and that this is reflected in the new dancing sword design. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; At #5 I compared the Old Omani Battle Sword with an Abbasid Sword and need to ammend that accordingly though it is not clear whether in fact the Abbasid could also have had similar attributes in the tip..see http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/turk/TopkapiArms2.html
The ammendment should include that the Old Omani Battle Swords main function was Slash and Chop behind a fast worked Terrs Buckler Shield.

Photos; For interest I show a third picture with 3 swords and the Terrs Shield viz;
The Old Omai Battle Sword with Quillons... Sayf Yamaani.
The Flexible Sayf Dancing Sword.. Straight Omani Sayf.
Kattara curved sword on a long Omani hilt.. Curved Kattara.

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi]Old Sayf "Abu Falaj" photo.

Salaams all; A hitherto, not seen on forum, variant in Omani Sayf dancing swords... The "Abu Falaj". (The one with the irrigation channels) In this case three fullers which would normally be termed "abu thalaatha musayil" ...

In the Abu Falaj however the fullers run almost all the way to the tip. This makes for an extra springy blade ideal for the pageants....


The Abu Falaj"[/B] noted for its added spring in the dance and pageants owing to three fullers extending virtually to the end point. This one traceable to a great grandfather is antique. I would say 110 years to be fair. (32 inch blade on an 8 inch hilt.)

Although this is not a fighting weapon it is easy to see how onlookers were fooled because with a concerted effort one solid swipe with this could remove a limb. The blade has no marks except 2 small X marks at the throat; likely to be owners identifying marks.

This Omani Dancing Sword; The Omani Sayf, reflects the same spirit of embodiment of the nation of Oman as does the Japanese Katana for Japan. Here in Oman it marks in celebration the honour of Omans ancestors and is worn with great pride at the pageants which are a living history; a handed down set of enacted poems, music, dances and traditions. The Funun.

Great care is taken when choosing Swords for the Funun. Considerable money can change hands for the right blade with which to honour the fore-fathers of the nation. Some become family heirlooms. The blades are locally made in some cases in the past by wandering gypsy (Zutoot) specialists whist others were, and still are, manufactured in Nizwa, Sanau, Mussandam, Salalah and Muscat.

Blades are sharpenend by the owners in respect of the forebears who fought with the Old Omani Battle Sword and so...It is reflected in the dancing traditions (The Funoon) today by a sword that has never seen a war because it is to honour those that did. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; Picture attached; The Abu Falaj ( The one with the irrigation channels ) Some work is needed to expertly refurbish the scabbard toe and the scabbard furniture has seen better days and will be replaced by mastercraftsmen~ but this is a beautiful, well balanced pageant and dancing sword.

Salaams All ~ Note to Forum.

Re-Comparison of Abbasid sword and Sayf Yamaani The old Omani Battle Sword ... Ammended as below:


The Topkapi museum holds the key. The Abbasid 9th Century Sword in their collection viz; http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/turk/TopkapiArms2.html
is compared to the Omani Short Battle Sword (Sayf Yamaani)as follows;

1. Both are early two edged Islamic Arab Battle Swords.
2. Both blades have an integral tang with an added pommel or cap.
3. Both have three holes in the handle which is similarly constructed with rivets. The top hole apparently for a wrist strap.
4. Both weapons have quillons.
5. Both blades are wing shaped in cross section, thinning toward the tip.
6. Both blades culminate in a round/spatulate tip.
7. Both blades (though not all examples of the Omani sword) have the golden dot or dots on the blade. The dot in Islamic geometry is an important centre of the universe construct.
8. Both hilts are topped with a cap in the case of the Abbasid and an Islamic arch pommel culminating in a short spike on the Omani.
9. Neither blade has risers nor fullers though in much later blades fullers may appear.
10. Both blades are stiff and generally only slightly flexible.
11. Both handles are octagonal in cross section *
12. If the rounded tip concept is accepted; the style of fighting must have been "chop and slash" in both cases.

Since the Abassid were in Oman with garrisons suppressing the Ibadi religious movement, thus, in direct conflict with the organisation led by the Omani Ibn Julanda (First Immam) in 751 a.d. It is therefor additionally evidenced by the 12 factors above that their battle sword was designed from the Abassid weapon and slightly changed to reflect a heraldic hilt or modified to the Omani design. It was called Sayf Yamaani though precise location of manufacture is still being sought; Yemen(Hadramaut), Nizwa or elsewhere in Oman being likely contenders.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A Partial quote from #307; Elgood cites his reference to the origins of this form and attributes to the Persian wife of the sultan (citing Ruth Hawley "Omani Silver" (Longman group, 1978). I do not have this reference so unsure what details of that reference are.
This tracing of references and sources is one of the best ways to check primary source comments which have often been lifted and paraphrased to see what the original context was.

All the best,
Jim[/QUOTE]

Reference Duly Traced.
Salaams Jim~ On sweeping back I noticed your reference to The Elgood quote at # 307 which inspires me to recommend the simple but brilliantly done pamphlet by Ruth Hawley on Omani Silver (Longman) now out of print (ISBN 0 582 78070 5) In my opinion the best work ever on Omani Silver. For many years and to date this was the only book worth carrying and my copy is in shreads! She indeed does mention the Persian Princess (though not by name, however, there was only one.. "Sheherazade")

"There is a story," she says; that the wife of Sayyid Said bin Sultan, a Persian Princess, grew bored with the curved top of her husbands khanjar, and designed a more ornate one to brighten him up. She is also credited with designing the Al Bu Said Turban. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Reference A; 237 of Early makers trade marks (Jim McDougall)
Reference B; Omani Sayf; markings for ID (Ilyiad)

Salaams all, There is an interesting discussion on European with the addition by fernando of a Spanish Rapier which I have considered omongst other things as evidence toward the problem of which mark was copied onto Arabian blades ? ~ The Perrillo Spanish Dog or the Running Woolf of Solingen?

It is my view that whereas German Swords flooded the African market in the 18/19th Centuries that the running woolf was here earlier in the shape of Portuguese weapons and Spanish (both Navies were in these waters) from the late 1400s. The Portuguese in particular were stationed as a foothold on Muscat where they built forts Mirani and Jelali and other places such as Sohar, Musandam, Bahrain etc... from which blade marks could have been seen and copied by local smiths.
The only definition seems to be that the running woolf is seen as running whilst the perrillo dog is more of a rampant rearing shape.

As a secondary note the discussion involves the blademark of a zig zag snakelike object also seen at reference B. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams All ~ I was backtracking through the library and ran into something on Omani Saifs #7 by Jens Nordelunde an absolute master of Indian weapons in particular and noted his excellent addition to this debate which I now include on this thread~

Quote "Besides all the blades made in the region, they had a big import of blades and ingots from other countries, India being one of them.
With your interest of old blades from the region I think you will enjoy this book - Hoyland, Robert G. and Gilmoure, Brian: Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmaking. Kindi’s treatise ‘On swords and their kinds’. Gibb Memorial Trust, London, 2006.

In the book the authors tell of the very famous Yemen blade, and a lot of other interesting things about blades." Unquote.

I don't have the reference.. but if anyone has it (and I am searching the web) please help in reference to this so called famous Yemeni blade which may be the link to the Old Omani Battle Sword blade. AKA "Sayf Yamaani" :eek:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams All ~ Note to Forum; High quality silver craftsmanship is still being done today on new Omani swords; take for example this straight dancing sword: The Omani Sayf. Likely provenance is Musandam. Chromed blade stamped on one face with a Crown (locals call Taj) and the other ...a lion with sword raised. Triple fullered. (Thulatha Musayl.)
A sword similar to this can be seen at Bait al Zubair museum in Muscat. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams All, Now is perhaps a good time to raise the question about those swords at # 1, 28, 47,81, and 144 that defy description as Omani swords but which cry with another voice... Schiavona!!

They are thicker swords which do not easily bend to 90 degrees yet they are two edged probably culminating in a point. Some fullering. Rehilted. These are red sea variants or at least so it seems... however, that can be misleading as they could have drifted in from Italy or Venice and were rehilted in Ethiopian or Arabia or Yemen.

There is another thread with museum swords from Saudia and Yemen..on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ilitary+museum

See #1 in particular the second foto right hand blade in glass frame. This thread and #1 first foto is also the source of one of the swords at para 1 above.

Currently on forum are some excellent threads on Schiavona both on the European and Ethnographic Forums ~ It seems like a good time to float the idea of Red Sea Schiavona.

Comments welcome please. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

14th Century CE trade travel routes Dar El Islam
 

If one is curious about trade and travel routes in the Islamic world in the 14th Century CE, there are many great maps in Dunn's book, The Adventures of Ibn Battuta.

Battuta travelled between Yemen and East Africa, and much later, by camel caravan from Tunisia into the Sahel, hence to Mali and back.

He also went through Anatolia, Mesopotamia, the steppes, Afghanistan, Sindh, and lived in India.

Dunn gives maps for Battuta's various itineraries, describing the modes of transport and times needed.

There is no information given about travel across central Africa between the East and Mali, as Battuta did not take that route.

http://www.google.com/search?q=dunn+...-1&btnG=Search
But one can get an idea of how very many travel routes existed throughout Dal al Islam, for trade and for making the Haj.

Blades and technicians would have circulated far and wide.

One very great discovery was managing boat traffic across the Indian ocean by exploiting the monsoon patterns. India, Muskat/Oman, Yemen/Hadramaut and Mogodishu and surrounding ports would have been well connected.

Even though Dunn offers an overview, his book is very readable and the maps are a big help.