Fine Landsknecht Swords in the Museo Storica della Caccia, Florence
 

They are preseved in the Museum of Hunting History.

From top:

A fine South German or Swiss hand-and-a-half sword, ca. 1540

A Venetian Landsknecht Sword, ca. 1510

A fine Venetian Storta, ca. 1500


Best,
Michael

auctioned at Thomasdelmar this Wednesday, lot 130.


Michael do you recognize the sword from your Photo's at the beginning of the thread? :)

A RARE SOUTH GERMAN BACKSWORD, SO-CALLED LANDSKNECHTMESSER, SECOND QUARTER OF THE 16TH CENTURY, PROBABLY MUNICH
with straight blade double-edged for the last third, cut with three long slender fullers on each face, stamped with the so-called 'twig' mark on one face, iron hilt comprising a pair of straight quillons with spirally-moulded knob-shaped terminals, shell-guard formed as a fire-steel and pierced with a central cross between two hearts, the front border roped and extending to a scrolling terminal on each side, finely carved ivory crutch-shaped pommel decorated with a female figure in contemporary dress on the top (cracked), a cherubic mask on the front, and scrolls on the reverse, wooden grip bound with fishskin and an early brass inventory tag
82.5cm; 32 1/2in blade

Provenance
Adrian Conan Doyle (as stated below)
Christie's King Street, 9th December 1998, lot 98

A sword with etched blade by Ambrosius Gemlich dated 1532 and with a pommel carved in the same style is preserved in the Museum fûr Deutsche Geschichte, Berlin. See H.Mûller and H. Kölling 1990, No. 157, p. 219. An almost identical guard on another Munich messer, also with an etched blade by Gemlich and dated 1533, is preserved in the Historisches Museum, Dresden. See H. Seitz 1965, Ill. 227.

Of course I did recognize the piece, Jasper,

I helped consigning it with Tom Del Mar. :)

Actually, your post was a bit quicker than mine; I was waiting for Tom's reluts before posting but it was only a few minutes ago that my browser would update and I could study the results list.

I was sold for GBP 7,800 ((lot 130).

Here's a bit more on the piece.

BTW, it's good the have you coming in again. I much missed your valuable comments and additions. ;)

Best,
Michael

Another similar Munich Landsknecht-Messer originally belonging to the Emperor Charles V, with similar style guard and calendar blade etched by Ambrosius Gemlich, Munich, and dated 1533 (the calendar ending in 1542, indicating that this costume sword was expected to be out of fashion within 10 years!). It is preserved in the Vienna Waffensammlung, inv.-no. A 429 (author's photos).

Best,
Michael

The following two items from the Karsten Klingbeil collection sold cheap at Brussels yesterday.
I've just been informed that they both went to a Swiss museum.

1. An early Swiss Landsknecht two-hand sword, ca. 1550.

Best,
Michael

2. An early 1530's (way earlier than the catalog stated) Swiss hand-and-a-half sword with fine marks and retaining its original grip binding and leather finely stitched with Gothic bow ornaments, also sold cheap.

Best,
Michael

The rest.

Hi Jasper,

I must ask: could it possibly be in your collection now? :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

Some more impressions of early 16th C. mercenaries swords and a horseman's hammer, late 16th.C., from the Hapsburg Imperial Vienna Arms and Armor collection preserved in the Hofburg.
Photos taken from www.forum.info. - with thanks to the authors!

Enjoy,
Michael

Hi Michael,

that is interesting, I have a similar 2hander, if this one is described under inv. 161.121 nr280(see last picture) it also has the same shield engraved in the blade!, with the characters S H, I don't know the meaning yet. maybe it stands for Hans Staentler.

best,

Nice item Jasper,

Although, being dated 1591, this is not really a Landsknecht sword any more but a bearing sword, most probably of Austrian origin.

Btw, I have never heard of a Hans Stantler - do you happen to have records on him?

Best,
Michael

Katzbalgers and two-hand Landsknecht swords, by Urs Graf, dated 1523 and 1524 repectively.

m

Some more period artwork.

The South Geman/Swiss motto Fryheit on the banner in the fourth image means Freedom.

m

Hi Michael,
there were still some Landsknecht upto the 17th century! seperately of the vatican-guard of course.
Hans Stantler was a swordcutler in the second half of the 16thC in Muenchen, probably the son of Wolfgang Stantler. (CF Ullstein)

best,

some more.

some more. I think we will have to delete some doublures.

some.

the last ones.

Good job, thank you!

The latter samples of period artwork you posted can actually be attributed to Jost Amman and the late 1550's.

m

Hi Michael,

yes that is correct, beautiful work of JA. also work of Wolgang Strauch Niklas Stoer, Hans Glaser, Albrecht Duerer, Erhart Schoen,Lucas Cranach.

I think this equipment can also be placed in this thread.

best,

Wow, what's that?

Yeah, what's that ? :confused:

Hi Michael, Hi Fernando,

Yes, that's absolutely not a silly question.
because of the organic material, leather and twisted willow tree wood, there are hardly any specimens preserved.

This stick was offered as an African magic wand at an antique dealer. It took a while before a friend of mine unexpectedly found a second copy in the German leather museum.
From that moment I noticed it on numerous landsknecht illustrations and found another (later) sample in an old book with the collection of Lorenz Sedan.

the pictures will explain what it is.

best,

Fantastic !
Congratulations for this unique item's property :cool:
Hey Muchl, you (also) wish you had one of these :D

Sure I wish to own one! ;)

Michl

Fröhliche Weihnachten
 

Here for your holiday enjoyment is this interesting little katzbalger from Bavaria. Armed with this I would be more than a match for the claws and fangs of an angry house-cat. The blade is 48.5 cm in length. Do not despair the electrical tape on the grip; it lies over gauze protecting the original worm-eaten wooden grip. I am told the inscription is some awful romantic drivel in vogue in the 16th century and not worthy of the effort of translation.

And Fröhliche Weihnachten to you, Lee,

From a rainy and windy Bavaria! :)

The blade to me seems to be a later addition, the script is, as you surmised, not worth translating and might have been added in the 18th c.

Best,
Michael

Hi,

beautiful hilt design of an atypical/hybrid katzbalger with an unual ring-guard inside the s guard and with a finger-guard, a transitional sword.

I have a 1582 dated katzbalger with a similar blade in my collection and
I'm pretty sure that this katzbalger is homogen and that the blade is the original, however about 30cm shortened, the blade length should be around 80cm. (it could have been reshaped during it's working life.)

This katzbalger has a similar finger guard as most of the dussages from the late 16th century and can be dated in this period around 1575-1585.

The inscription, btw I have never seen anything like this, seems to me like Michael suggested later,on the other side it would not surprise me if this also has been done in the 16th century.(The manuscript is truthful)

perhaps it will give some outcome after translation.



best,

Never seen anything like this, but, not to say anything about the probable purpose of such a short blade, it looks definitely interesting and functional to me - just remember, what length was the average Roman gladius of, and remember, in which kind of combat it was used.

Hi Jasper,

Could you please present any dated or closely datable kind of period artwork showing a Katzbalger from the 1570's/80's?

Best,
m

Hi Michael,

Of course, a good example of the Landsknecht+arms are the illustrations made by Wolfgang Strauch.
these are dated 1568 (Claus Wintergruen and son Heintz + the landsknecht and the death, note the model katzbalger at the landsknecht belt, it is the same as Lee's katzbalger however longer).

Jost Amman also produced illustrations of landsknechts with katzbalgers in this period.
(see pictures)

In the 2 half of the 16th century the typical katzbalger transformed into other type of swords. The katzbalgersword with s-guard and atypical pommel , dated 1582, is a good example of such a transition.

The reason for my late dating of Lee's katzbalger is due to the inner guard with finger protection (norman type 17), it only came in after 1570 more frequent.
The earliest known inner guard of this type 17 is on a painting in Munich, a portrait of a member of the house of Baden, 1549. Inv no 740, Bayerische Staatsgemaeldesammlung.

best,

Correct assumption, Lee; sometimes i 'spank' my 8 kilos cat with objects of similar dimensions and he doesn't seem to bother :cool: .
If only this most interesting and misterious sword could speak, we would know its history ... maybe a surprising one or, in the least, unexpected ?. Could it have been shortened in the same ocasion of the inscription enngraving ... like being for presentation ? or retired from action, to be modified and kept or displayed in the sanctuary of some sect.
If it were mine, even though being told the inscription is not worth the translation, i would revolve the skies to have it done.
End of fantasy :o

Hi Jasper,

We should take into consideration that the high time of the Landsknechte is generally believed to have come to an end by the mid-16th c, and many of these contemporay illustrations of the 1560's-80's were romanticizing, and based on, earlier illustrative sources of the early 16th c. Consequently we often see much earlier and obsolete costumes and weapons which were characteristic of the 1520's-30's.

Also I would not call your broadsword dated 1582 a Katzbalger though the quillons suggest a late remembrance of an earlier style.

Best,
Michael

Hi michael,
yes, in the second half of the 16th century the heyday of the landsknecht was over and lost in importance, approximately after the battle of Dreux 1562 . On the other hand, Don Fernando Alvarez de Toledo y Pimentel, 3rd Duke of Alba, still hired these mercenaries in his spanish army and deployed them against the Dutch between 1567-1572.

just out of interest what do you call this sword of the landskecht image?

best,

Hi 'Nando,

I might be able to help a lot but would need a high-rez close-up to do that.

Best,
Michl

Maybe Lee decides to do so, one of these days ? :o :cool: .

Two finely withen and carved flower head pommels from Landsknecht swords, ca. 1530-40; photographed by the author in the reserve collection of the Historisches Museum Luzern, Switzerland. They were obviously used as sliding weights in later times, as was often the case.

Best,
Michael

[QUOTE=cornelistromp]Hi Michael, In the 2 half of the 16th century the typical katzbalger transformed into other type of swords. The katzbalgersword with s-guard and atypical pommel, dated 1582, is a good example of such a transition.

Right, Jasper,

But I would not really call these late specimens Katzbalgers anymore. They are followers retaining an older feature, the pretzel or figure eight quillons but noticeably smaller by the 1560's-80's, whlie the swords themselves, just like the period guns, had grown in length in comparison since the first half of the 16th c.

Please cf. the famous GIECH estoc, Souhern Germany/Bavaria, ca. 1570, last sold at Sotheby's, The Visser Collection part I, 1990.

Best,
Michael

I think we have to define katzbalger.

first the word katzbalger;
Schnieder1957, according to Seitz, the mercenaries used instead of a scabbard a cat's skin sheath, they had the ability to stab the sword quickly without pulling the sword from its sheath.
This seems unlikely since there are many 16thC images where a scabbard can be seen.

Another theory is that the word katzbalger comes from how cats fight, (wie katzen balgen) cats fight like mercenaries in close combat.

most likely is the theory of JP Puype in Arms and Armour of knights and landsknechts, page 152: The etymology of the german name katzbalger is unclear but there is consensus that balger comes from the middle high German verb balgen, meaning to brawl, whereas the word KATZ(cat) might be a corruption of KURZ(short). Nonetheless there are also katzbalgers with longer blades apparently worn by mounted landsknecht officers.



then the definition;
to my understanding, a katzbalger must meet all 3 of the following criteria;

1. Sword of the landsknecht(infantry) with a horizontal or S- or 8-curved guard. (cf. Seitz blankwaffen P173, puype p152)

2. a broad straight blade of type XIII, in the first place used for cutting and slashing blows and not for stabbing, in most cases with a rounded tip.

3.basic hilt form;The speading end of the grip is made ​​of metal and no true pommel exists, alternatively hilt subform; the grip ends with a pommel or in a cap, fitting down over it. (norman1980 hilt3 p66 )


A late 16thC estoc with an 8 shaped guard is not a Katzbalger because it does not meet 1 and 2 of the definition; not a landsknecht infantry weapon and the wrong type of blade not suitable for close combat.
and the sword in landsknecht-image of post #274 does meet 1,2 and 3 of the above mentioned definition.

best,

As a personal opinion - I would also have added to the definition a massive broad flattened pommel seen on most of katzbalgers, mostly of that specific shape (do not remember proper English name for it) seen only on them.