Originally Posted by Nonoy Tan

Baganing Balyan, I wish that you will be able to conduct more research and then share with us linguistic evidence supported by historical, archaeological (I hope you did not forget this one) and DNA findings.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ms. Baganing, I suggest you read my post, #24.

Herewith a quote from that post:-

The principal literary works in which we find these words are the Nagarakertagama (approx. 1360), the Nawatnatya(14th century), the Pararaton (approx. 16th century), then there are minor references in the Rajapatigundala, and the Sarwardharma.

In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt.

In Pigeaud, Java in the Fourteenth Century, you will find the original texts, romanised, and a translation into English.

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Ms Baganing,
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic groups? Would you share more details? :)

With migration of people since the 1600 and later... I'm just curious what can the DNA test prove? Let's take myself as an example, I'm a malay by birth, speak malay and brought up as one... but if a DNA test is done... What would be the result? My ancestors includes, from my father side, pakistan/indian influence, from my mother's side, malay, chinese, dutch influence. What will be the outcome and what will it prove?

Originally Posted by Andrew

How've you been Ron? :cool: Have you got wet this summer? The swell off Hutchinson has been small, but consistent all month.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ms. Baganing, may I most humbly suggest that you further your studies just a little in the Old Javanese language, and it usages.

It is true, the word "kris" does not occur in the Nag., however, the word "kinris" does occur, 54.2/4:-

tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap

"kinris" means "to stab with a keris"

the word "kinris" cannot exist in the absence of the word "kris", and the implement to which it refers.

I suggest that you read the lines before and after "tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap" then translate them to English. Then understand the essence of the lines. "aris" is a malay word too for edge, so kinaris or kinris would also mean "put to edge or turn to edge." There is also a sanskrit word karis (to do). tamil also has kari or karis for sauce or soup. I am interested to know if the line you cut is actually about food.

There is no Old Javanese word "kuriga"; unfortunately you are thinking in English and attempting to understand Old Javanese.The word you are attempting to render is "curiga", for an English speaker, this would be pronounced "chewreegah", but to an English speaker the Javanese pronunciation would sound like "chewreegoh" .The word "kuriga", if it did exist, which it does not, would sound like "kooreegoh". The "c" and the "k" is most definitely not a matter of choice; these two letters represent quite different symbols in the original Javanese text.


I don't think the curiga with C that sounds like ch is correct.
That javanese word is obviously from the sanskrit khadga (sword) with an aspirated K. I have a hunch that the linguist who studied the old javanese could not pronounce the aspirated kh sound since it was/is a rare one, if he/she was european or american, so he/she used the ch sound which was/is linguistically common.

I do understand your confusion in respect of "twek" and "tewek". This is hardly the place to educate you on your lack of understanding of the nature of the keris within the early and middle Javanese context, but you really do need to educate yourself.

I stand by my analysis of twek-- in analyzing a word, to truly understand it, trace its origin and how it evolved into a new word. In this case, include sanskrit and malay languages in dealing with twek.

In Old Jawa the keris was a symbol of the male, however, the word "twek" referred to a stabbing weapon, or more precisely when coupled with the name of a weapon it referred to that weapon as a stabbing implement. Tewek is also found associated with the word "lingis"---a crowbar.

twek is not a sword. Its use is metaphorical for masculinity.

Your interpretation of twek or tewek is incorrect.May I suggest that you spend a little time with Pigeaud and Zoetmulder?

I am really interested of a native javanese studying her or his own language. French and German, if those were their linguistic nationalities, are just not equipped to mimic the sounds of sanskrit and old javanese.

Professor Zoetmulder seemed to hold the opinion that the word kris could be found in written works as far back as the tenth century.

I would love to read that tenth century text.

I do find your ideas about middle eastern influence in the early Philippines to be interesting. You may have the germ of an idea here that when fully developed could provide us with new insights, however, when you stray into ideas and language associated with the early development of the keris, and the culture from which it came, you do impair your credibility.

Thanks. I don't waste my time on something I don't know. when i say something, it's because i have a basis.

I once again encourage you to continue your studies, but I equally encourage you to refrain from comment in respect of those things which you do not understand, or only partially understand. In time to come your errors could return to haunt you. Restrict your comments to those things of which you have a firm grasp.

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

The Philippine history says that the Islamization of Mindanao happened in late 1300's. I am really doubtful of that date. 14th century Moroccan traveler Ibn Batuta, a Islamic scholar, reported that he was attack by the Hindus along the coasts on his way to China from India. He indicated that he reached Sumatra. It is obvious that those Hindus who attacked him were from Java, Borneo, Sulawesi, and Mindanao. Those four places were within his route to China but he never stopped and visited those places.

I am not denying that there were already Arab traders and Missionaries in Majapahit empire, but their numbers were negligible. The sunni Islam of Sultanate of Demak that toppled the Majapahit empire in mid 16th century was actually from Southern India-- Kerala and Tamil Nadu-- established by the seljuk turks of the Ottoman empire who reached India in 14th century. There are Turkish Anatolian and Turkish Safavid inscriptions found in Tanjore (Tamil Nadu) and Thiruvarur (Kerala). (J. P. Mulliner. Rise of Islam in India. University of Leeds)

I believe the Sultanate of Demak, which was in the north coast of Java, was actually a Turkish state. Even the word "demak" came from "demek," the turkish word for "force." I think the use of 'Kilis" (from the Turkish kilich for sword) and later, "keris" started in north Java in the sixteenth century. This timeline fits within the date the word creese or kris entered the English vocabulary.

Nicholas Turling wrote about the Turks in Java and Aceh in his book, The Cambridge History of Southeast Asia. Yataghan as a 16th century Turkish weapon also fits within the time line-- middle of 1500's.

Another proof of the Turkish influence reaching as far as Mindanao is the word "arak" or "alak"--meaning, wine or liquor. It is not of sanskrit or tamil origin. araq is arabic for Juice and arak is turkish for wine or liquor. Using such etymologies, it is safe to say that the influence of the turks was more direct than the arabs.

So as I see it, yatagan indeed reached the malay archipelago in the middle of 16th century during the time of suleiman the magnificent of the ottoman empire that spearheaded the spread of Islam to the balkans, mediterranean, europe, and asia.

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

on yataghan:

the two sides of the handle's pommel are not just ears. They are actually heads of the turkish mythical bird, anka-- Turkish for phoenix-- this is also known as simurgh or senmurv, a persian (iranian) word. Turkey and Iran, genetically, share the same haplogroup, G.

The philippine's version of anka is sarimanok. In malay, angka means figure. In short, the pommel of yataghan is anka among the turks and angka among the malays.

Yataghan is from yate (gate) and gan (beginning). Yataghan is "beginning of the gate." This is not only about the duty of a warrior to guard a leader but also a folklore known in Islam.

The story goes that Sarimanok or anka was found by Muhammad in the seventh heaven. It is said to be the guard of heaven when the day of judgment comes.

In Roman Catholicism, the guard of heaven is St. peter who is depicted with a key and a rooster. I am still researching which influenced which.

Yataghan is also a symbolic sword in Islam. Suleiman the magnificent had a yataghan inlaid with jewels and gold. Ahmed Tekelu made it for him "as a weapon for the defender of the faith." (Our Sacred Signs by Ori Z. Soltes)

Even the use of kakataw from cockatoo is not really correct. I have no idea how kakataw and cockatoo as a word and an image became related to kris or kalis when the tausugs, maguindanaos, maranaos, etc. know that muhammad's phoenix (or rooster) is definitely bigger and holier.

Sarimanok would have been saribon in the philippines if its a tiny bird.

Originally Posted by David

Someone just recently pointed out the at Candi Sukuh in Jawa to me. Let us compare it to the Mayan temple of Chichen Izza. So what do you think Baganing. Did the Mayans make their way to Jawa in the 15th century and influence the temple form at Candi Sukuh. :shrug:
....of course, there is always my old favorite, the aliens from space theory...

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ms. Baganing, for somebody whose initial posts seemed to promise so much, I find it a great shame that you have reached this point.

You are well and truly out of your depth.

Nagarakertagama , canto 54 , stanza 2 reads:-

1. Staying behind were the wild boars, the black antelopes, the deer, the chevrotains, were the most excellent of them, continuously in fear.

2. The Illustrious Prince's proceeding was , having for consequence a horse, to follow them, noisily running.

3. Mandarins, headmen, clerical officers equally , the honoured ones who had their places with the horses, took part in the hunt.

4. Exterminated were the animals, thrusted , lanced, cut, krissed, dying without a gasp.(---tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap)

The line I quoted is in a part of the Nag. to do with a hunt. The translation is Pigeaud's, not mine.

Count the number of words in "tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap" and in "Exterminated were the animals, thrusted , lanced, cut, krissed, dying without a gasp." Isn't the latter too much? I know Nagarakertagama is a kakawin (epic poetry)-- maybe that's the reason why the translator was pretty lax in his translation. As i said there is a malay word aris, meaning edge. Since it is a hunting expedition, kinris or kinaris would also mean put or push to the edge.

If you read the four lines you posted, why would those hunters use krises while hunting when they were on horses. Tumbak (spear) is mentioned. Malay archipelago has a tradition of spear-hunting. Kris-hunting? mmmmm I don't think so. keris was and is not a hunting weapon.


Your knowledge of Javanese is non-existent. You tell us that you do not think that the romanised sound represented by "c" in Javanese is pronounced in a way that would approximate "ch" in the English language. You obviously have never heard Javanese spoken, and cannot read it.

Since your knowledge of javanese is existent, can you properly translate the four lines you posted? As i said, curiga came from khadga. Granting there is no research lapse in phonology, it is possible that aspirated Kh could evolve to ch sound or they were used interchangeably. we see such occurrence in chi and ki.

Please spare us any more of your linguistic analyses. Indonesian is my second language, and in my home I use English, Javanese and Indonesian every day. If you wish to pass comment upon a language, please do yourself a favour, and learn that language first.

Since you know Bahasa Indonesia, is there a traditional word with ch sound? does ch become s in your second language? Is their churiga or even suriga? You check. I will listen.

As to tewek.

I apologise for not providing you with complete information on this word. Had I done so you might have not made yourself appear so ridiculous.

In Old Javanese there are two meanings for the word tewek.
The first is to do with weapons, and I will return to that in a moment.
The second is a word that has an association with time, cause and origin; this meaning does not concern us here, so I will return to the first meaning.

The word tewek, also given as twek, and with tuhuk as a synonym, refers to a pointed weapon. Actually, it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly what weapon it does refer to, but when it is used, it is found in the context where it could be substituted with either keris or pedang, however, on other occasions it is found coupled with pedang or keris, indicating a way in which the pedang or keris is being used.When it is used alone, but it is followed by a verb indicating use of a keris, then clearly it refers to a keris in that context also.

the javanese tewek is from sanskrit tuwek, meaning sword's point. Javanese is mostly Sanskrit and malay. Any weapon with sharp endpoint has a tuwek or twek. In current malay languages, there are words such as tuhuk, tuwuk, tuk, and the filipino tusok-- all are related to sharp point or stabbing. A tusok of a barbecue stick has no relation to kris. twek is part of the sword not a sword. it can also be a part of an arrow or spear.

The word atewek can mean to use a keris, or to stab oneself with a keris, or to have or use a stabbing weapon.

It can also be used with spear, sharpened pencil, and yes, barbecue stick.

A panewek is a stabbing tool.

so is the pantusok. A ballpen can be a pantusok (for stabbing).

Atewek-tewekan means to stab repeatedly.

Tusuk-tusukan is the same thing.

Your understanding of the word tewek is absolutely and utterly incorrect. You are wrong.

mmmmm check the sanskrit tuwek and the other malay words with the same meaning-- sharp point.

When you fail to take note of the work of Pigeaud and Zoetmulder, you make yourself appear to be an unlettered oaf, which I am quite certain you are not, but it does surprise, no, not surprise, amaze me, that any serious anthropologist working in a South East Asian culture could fail to be aware of the stature of these two giants.

Tell that to the postcolonial researchers.

Ms. Baganing, please do restrict yourself to comment on those things you may know something about.

It is clear that you know less than nothing about the Javanese culture, the Javanese language, and the Javanese keris.

Originally Posted by Bill

can't say I'm following this thread all that closely & it certainly has many directions but pyramids are interesting & if one wishes to spend some time with google, the Inca pyramids are the one you should start with. Then do some searches for Inca bronze weapons & compare the ax heads & spears with other artifacts in the world. interesting the Egyptians & the Inca both made the same mistake with the calender (no leap year) while it seems, with that exception, others were on the same page. It also appears a link of Inca DNA to some Pacific Islands but doesn't match current SE Asians although the pigs they brought with them link to Vietnamese pigs. I'd sure be interested if someone had some thoughts about the Inca & bronze.

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Interesting on the bird association with the yatagan, thank you for sharing that . Still I find the theory that the hilt on the Kris evolved from the yatagan tenuous at best (I find the hilt on a Nias Gari closer in profile than the yatagan to the the kris hilt you talk of, though I am in no way saying one of those evolved from the other just making note of a similarity in profile; the hilt on the Garis is a lasara head ) . If they did take the shape of the hilt from the yatagan why did they not incoporate any of the aspects of the blade ? I would find a more likely explanation that the bird motif is tied to Islamic docterine and symbology (or perhaps even earlier Judeo-Christian symbology) and both hilts evolved separately because of that. Birds are common in Aceh motifs. ( in fact I have often wondered if the hulu meucangge is supposed to symbolize a stork just as the hulu Gonjo does but thats way off the subject and just random thoughts) and the sumatran word for parrot I believe is kakaktua. The etymology is certainly interesting and deserves further study. Again I do not know that it ties the yatagan to the kris or if it just shows an influence on the language by the Otoman. Further study and proof would be needed. I can completely buy into the concept that the Ottoman had an influence on the culture and language I just need stronger proof before I would say the Kris hilt was derived from the yatagan

If you are looking for The Ottomans in Aceh a path towards the the Philippines the link below is a paper you may find interesting entitled
"Ottoman-Aceh Relations Accordingto the Turkish Sources"
Ismail Hakkı GÖKSOY
Suleyman Demirel University, Faculty of Theology,
Isparta, Turkey
Presented at First International Conference of Aceh and Indian Ocean Studies
24 – 27 February 2007
Here is the link http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/Aceh-...akkigoksoy.pdf

I hope it proves helpful

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

First, let me say that Alan Maisey has an incredible knowledge of Java. There is no doubt in my mind that his opinion and ideas regarding Java are correct! He has a depth of understanding that comes from over 40 years of in-depth research and understanding of this culture and their history. If he says it is so, then it is so.

Anyone who took the time to get to know him would understand this.


But in regard to the overall thread, PLEASE! There is enough acrimony in the world. Could we discuss the validity, or invalidity of these concepts and ideas, without personal attacks?

If a person makes a dumb statement, that is merely a dumb, or incorrect, statement. It does not necessarily mean the person is dumb, or incorrect all the way through.

So, could we just attack or defend the statements before the principal of this school closes the classroom? There are some good ideas here.

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

So, could we just attack or defend the statements before the principal of this school closes the classroom? There are some good ideas here.

Originally Posted by David

hmmm....here's a definition of ad hominem:
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.
Mr. Maisey both address the substance of your agrument (in great detail) and produces evidence. If you don't choose to agree with the argument that is one thing. But perhaps you should learn the meaning of ad hominem before you use it incorrectly again. :rolleyes:
Sorry that you feel attacked by Mr. Maisey (and probably others including myself), but i believe you have brought this upon yourself. Personally i'm getting just a little bit frustrated with you myself. Constantly repeating your theories without providing any substance and refusing to address the numerous questions that have been asked of you will not gain you any points or friends around here. What is your agenda exactly? Obviously your theories are not being well received here. Do you intend to brow beat us into submission? I would think that any reasonable researcher would come to a forum like this looking for ideas to help in their research. Obviously you do not care for any of ours. You just want to preach your own. Their is literally hundreds of years of experience here. Mine is the very least of it. I admittedly no very little and am here to learn. Why are you here? Do realize that Mr. Maisey's experience alone with the keris spans more than 50 years....that he was also trained in the art of keris making by a well known and respected kraton empu who he apprenticed with for over 10 years. He has been emmersed in the culture of the keris and Jawa and Bali far longer than your existence on this Earth. What is your experience with the keris the or Moro kris or anything for that matter? Where and what have you studied? Who were your teachers? Why should i take your word for anything to do with the keris or Javanese language? Tell me and i will listen and consider. But you only continue to put forth a rambling and disjointed lecture with nothing more than the weakest of circumstantial evidence and ask us to buy into you theories without support or argument. Good luck with that! :rolleyes: