Hi Michael,

I've got a nice contribution of a grosses messer, a discovery found in the soil of Bavaria (your backyard?) "Dreieck" Hauzenstein, Liebergen und Haslach near the eastern way Regensburg - Nittenau.
With this knife is a belt hook with a Nuremberg mark and chape found.
the belt hook is very interesting because it has a system with a spring and a plate to fix the sword.
The condition has been excavated, but as single handed Messers are very rare, I'm happy with it.
remains of the original wooden handle and wooden Pflockniete (rivets) are available.


best from holland,

Hi Jasper,

Nice item you've acquired there, congratulations! :)

Actually it was not exactly excavated in my backyard :rolleyes: but some 40 km northwest from where I live. Of course I know that region very well as I used to study and afterwards live in Regensburg for almost 25 years.

It's really well preserved, with no yellowish, aggressive salt points visible on the images.

The combination with the belt hook is highly remarkable too, as well as the fact that the latter is Nuremberg marked, and left of this there seems to be another coat of arms, probably the one of Bavaria.

What I would be interested to learn: could you please give us the overall length, blade length and width of blade at the quillons?
Is this the original bottom mount of the sheath right near the tip of the blade?

Thanks a lot for sharing,
Michael

Hi Michael,

well almost your backyard then. ;)
all the parts are found together also the chape.
remarkable because in most images Messer are worn with out any sheath.
also a picture of the belt hook with spring to secure the plate.

The measurements are:
the sword allover: 80,5 cm
the blade length/width: 67,0 cm / 4,2 cm
blade is single edged wit a fuller at both sides.
the crossguard: 22,5 cm
the ring in diameter: 7,0 cm / 4 cm

best,

Thank you so much again, Jasper!

This one is a really fine and well documented find! :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

Thank you Michael,

Yes, I bought it from a German gentlemen, it is known that Germans are generally somewhat more precise in detail. ;)

BTW did you ever see such a messer for single hand use.
The longer 2 hand Messers are known, but here the grip is a little longer for single hand- or 1 1/2 hand use.
probably this extra length is needed only to counterbalance the light blade enough, i/o a pommel/counterweight.

best,

The Messer "ZEF 4" documented on this site seems to be made
for single hand or 1 1/2 use:
http://www.zornhau.de/dinkelsbuhl-first-steel/#more-92

Single hand figthing styles for the Messer are described in
Lecküchner, H: Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/...002184/images/

Best Regards,
Thilo

BTW, Michl ... and others :) .
Are you aware of this publication?
Nice swords here. All examples with full technical data.
Pity (for me) is written in german :shrug: .
... But the illustrations are universal, though :cool: .

.

Hi 'Nando,

Of course, the Schneider/Stüber book on edged weapons from the Zurich arsenal has been in my library for some 30 years and has often seen reference.

I'd like to add that the measurements, too, are internationally understood. :)

Best,
Michael

Hi Thilo,

As I am very much aware of the 'source' whereafter that engaged young guy builds his replicas, I have become very reserved ... there are way too many fakes around originating from that very same 'source'.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,
Thanks for the remarks about the 'source' of the weapons.
I didn't know (or even suspect) that it was questionable. :shrug:

Regarding the intentions of the people whose website i linked to:
While i am aware that documenting weapons to build replicas as close to the
original as possible is problematic from a collectors perspective,
i am *very* sure these people won't sell fakes to anyone. :)

Best Regards,
Thilo

Hi Thilo,

You are certainly right about the young people copying the swords without any 'dark' intention. The problem is the dealer who lends them the 'original' pieces and thereby makes them get 'copied after an original'. The 'original' items are fakes themselves, though, and by this method get copied on and on, spoiling peoples' minds.

Best,
Michael

Hi Thilo,

Thank you for pointing out this valuable link!

As it is much preferred on our forum to post pictures instead of posting links, I am going to publish a selection of Hans Lehküchner, Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482.

Please note the birds' head shaped pommels (Vogelkopfknauf) as well as the single edged blades with their tips sharpened on both egdes.

Best,
Michael

The rest.

Hi Gentlemen,

very nice, this is another type of messer, more of the "Hauswehr" type, with shorter quards and characteristic "Parierdorn".

best regards
Jasper

Hi Jasper!

Do you have any measurements for that nice messer?
Is it your's? How old is it?

/Micke D

Right, Jasper,

It's a so called Seiten- or Hauswehr, tool and weapon in one.

The grips and hollow rivets seem to be new.

Best,
Michael

Hi Micke D,

All I can say is that I would date Jasper's Messer to ca. 1490-1400, and that is exactly the period this thread is all about, the high time of the Landsknechte. The short and heavily swamped quillons are characteristic for the Late Gothic stylistic period.

A very nice and nearly identical Messer or Seitenwehr is illustrated in Johann von Schwarzenberg's Die Bambergische Peinliche Halsgerichtsordnung (Constitutio Criminalis Bambergensis) of 1507. This illustration was originally posted by our member Samik earlier in this thread.

I am sure Jasper will give you the measurements you required.

Best,
Michael

From the Collection of the Museo Poldi Pezzoli, Milano
 

Let's start with a really great two hand sword (spadone a due mani) with richly fullered blade, Veneto, ca. 1510, overall length 1,73 m.

Next in line is another, the hilt Venetian, the blade German, ca. 1535-40, overall length 1,53 m.

Then there is another, Italy, ca. 1560, oa. length 1,505 m.

The fourth item was made in Venetia using a German blade, ca. 1565, oa. length 1,38 m, a piece from the end of the period of Landsknechte.


So far for the great swords.

There is also a fine Landsknecht hand and a half sword with a single edged blade, South German or Swiss, ca. 1560, oa. length 1,28 m. Please note the perfectly original black and blueish colors of the hilt!

And, last not least, a fine South German or Swiss Katzbalger-Degen, the fine blackened hilt and Brezel-quillons characteristic of the 1540s;
oa. length 1,05 m. The grip wire binding including the Turk's heads is a later alteration.

Best,
Michael

Hi Micke,

this one is not my property but I do have the measurements for you.
allover length = 49.0 cm, cross-width = 10 cm

Blade: length = 36.5 cm, width = 3.8 cm

weight: 502 gram

Michael gave exactly the right period for this messer. around 1490

best,
jasper

Ahh... again so many great things!:)

A few questions:

1) Are there a remains of a second ring on the messer's hilt? Two broken pieces in the center of a guard look like having a cross section just like a ring on another side, and remind it very closely, as for me.

2) And the first за those four two-handed swords - what are it's more detailed dimensions, if they are available? Weight, blade width and thickness, hilt length etc.

Hi Zwielicht,

At the beginning of my latest post on the Italian Swords I gave all the measurements I had, according to their line of appearance.

Best,
Michael

A Katzbalger, ca. 1515-20, and a Broadsword, ca. 1550
 

... preserved in the Castel Sant' Angelo, Rome, the Katzbalger of unusual length and therefore probably mounted with a later blade!

m

Ah Michl,
Definitely your picture is much better than mine, 'secretely' taken with a friend's camera, when i visited the Castle last year.


:shrug:

Oh 'Nando,

They are not mine, I found them on the web.

Best,
Michl

German two hand swords in the Norwich Castle museum: the one on the left a bearing sword of ca. 1600, the one on the right an early Landsknecht sword of ca. 1490, also illustrated in detail below.

Associated with the armor is a hand and a half sword of ca. 1550-60.

Best,
Michael

Hi there,

Some 20 years ago, my friend Ottmar saw an unusually good and fine Katzbalger in perfect old patina in a North German private collection, and offered them what would 10,000 euro today. They would not sell though.

Today, that same piece - unfortunately cleaned meanwhile - was sold at auction by Czerny's, Italy, where it was fortunately labeled as 19th c. copy. So my friend bought it at the estimate of 1,500 euro.

Sometimes all you have to do is wait patiently ...

Now here it is, Southern Germany, ca. 1520, overall length 94.5 cm. Please note the small piece of wood inlaid in the iron grip and framed by a brass band, and the fine roped decoration on the hilt, which is characteristic of the early Renaissance period. The short lateral fullers at the base of the blade can be found on most original Katzbalgers.

The mark struck two times has not yet been identified, it might be a variation of the so-called Brescian eye though.

Enjoy, and best,
Michael

Fantastic !!
Hey Michl, did you notice the auctioner dates it XIX century ? :confused:
... or is my italian far too rusted ? :eek:

-

But that's exactly what I pointed out, 'Nando - and that's also what the joke is all about! :rolleyes: It really is, as I said: ca. 1520 and all original!

Best,
Michl

Sorry for being too speedy; didn't read the whole paragraph :o .

That's o.k., my friend,

Things like these tend to happen to old folks like us! :D :cool: :eek:

Michl

A standard bearer Landsknecht with a short sword that could be called an early predecessor of a Katzbalger. Please note the slightly curved quillons.

Woodcut by Albrecht Dürer, 1502.

Best,
Michael

The pretzel quillons on this are a modern replacement of course. I just wished to make that perfectly clear.

Best,
Michael

For another good Katzbalger sword new to the market, and in our member Fernando's collection, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14555

Best,
Michael

A good and rare Landsknecht one-hand sword, in excavated condition and missing its originally sandwiched and cord-bound leather-covered wooden grip scales, ca. 1525-30, just failed to sell at only 1.600 euro at the Dorotheum, Vienna.
Overall length ca. 110 cm.

Best,
Michael

This one-hand sword is very similar to a hand-and-a-half sword of identical date, overall length 119.5 cm, preserved in the Historisches Museum Regensburg (author's photos attached, the one top is the one discussed here).

The blade bears a deeply-struck South German cross-and-orb mark.

m

The orb-and-cross mark.

Ulrich von Schellenberg sword
 

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b6...tMusVienna.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b6...nberg-enh1.jpg

View item at Kunsthistorisches Museum
Identifier: HJRK_A_287
Format: Total: L. 88 cm, weight 1400 g Blade: L. 75 cm,

W 4.5 cm, weight 500 g gilded bronze, leather, brass
Publisher: Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer| Landsknecht sword with sheath for knife and an awl eight

Date: in 1515
Geographic coverage: South German
Type: Sword |Relation: Hofjagd- und Rüstkammer

Description: This from the southern German Landsknecht sword has a type of so-called Katzbalger eighth-shaped curved crossguard, which is heavily gold plated. The swing -up handle is duplicated four times with St. Andrew's cross, well-decorated as an indication of the closeness of the owner of the house of Habsburg. When the stitching on the knife-eaters there is a continuous poetic inscription.

Ulrich Schellenberg fought as Imperial officer in both Maximilian I and Charles V in Upper Italy against France and Venice. Caption: The inscriptions of the now lost awl grip caps and 4 Knives are out of the 19 Century, handed
down: ALS. IR. ZV. LIEB) / KAIN. FRED. ON. SI / ALS. MIT. GLVCK / ICH. WART. DER. ZIT / (ICH. LID. VND. SCHWIG) / ICH. HOFF. V .. See lessData provider: Kunsthistorisches Museum| Provider: Kulturpool| Austria| This record can be cited in the Harvard Bibliographic style using the text below:

(1515) Landsknecht sword with sheath for knife and an awl eight
Webpage available at link below:
[Accessed: November 29, 2011
09:27:18 PM]

Better photos wanted
 

If anyone has better photos of this sword or even the handle only, please post them here. I can buy them from the KHM but the cost may be more than it is worth for my little project.

Hi John,

Here are better images of the von Schellenberg Katzbalger at the KHM Vienna. Thought I had posted them somewhere here before but can't find them.
The close-ups of the hilt in color at the bottom are mine. Even if you are lucky and get special permission like I did, and are allowed to use flashlight, taking good pictures is extremely critical in the Vienna exhibition (as in most museums when it comes down to guns ... :mad: ).

The blade mark on the ricasso is an Italian-style crowned Greek pi.

Enjoy,
Michael

Those interested in Ulrich von Schellenberg's biography, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...689#post129689

m