|
Quote:
How've you been Ron? :cool: Have you got wet this summer? The swell off Hutchinson has been small, but consistent all month. |
3 Attachment(s)
OK
Below are what I consider Moro battle kris/sudang or whatever else you want to call them. They all have large and heavy pattern welded blades. The kris/gunong that baganing_balyan refers in the photo of the man in yellow I would consider a newer piece made only for dress. I would not put it in the same category with the older pieces. That type of stylized dagger in the photo seems to have surfaced during the 1950s-70s and to date I have not seen any old photos pre WW2 with any Moro warrior wearing this type of dagger. Lew |
2 Attachment(s)
baganing_balyan on your web page you say
Quote:
http://bp0.blogger.com/_cAYvLXaE-IQ/...0/yatagan1.jpg You are aware I am sure that this looks to be a modern interpretation of a yatagan, made by a contemporary smith ( Jody Samson made similar ones I think, in fact this one may well be one of his pieces. Jody Samson made movie weapons and artistic pieced but to my knowledge does not make historical reproductions, he did make one much like this that does have ears ). Traditional yatagan I have seen have handles like the one in the photos below ( some with smaller or larger "ears" and different angles for the "ears") With this in mind I would like to know about your feelings on the similarities to the kris photo you have on your site. The traditional yatagan I have seen also have downward curving blades. Not straight or wavy blades as seen on kris. You may also want to research the dates when yatagan first came into use. I have seem some sources put that as late as the 16th century. I cannot vouch for that but there are some on here who have a great deal of knowledge on Turkish weapons and may be able to give you better information. |
sorry double posts.
|
when I used the images in my previous posts, I did not mind about the dates. I only used them as representations since I had no idea about the exact dates the artifacts were made. So when I use the images of Indian swords and yataghan, my concern is mainly to show what they look like.
so far the oldest illustration of yataghan i read is the one in Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword, 1884, where the bird or sarimanok motif is evident. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...&ct=image&cd=1 Dating krises is really problematic. Without the use of carbon-dating, we can only get estimates, and sound estimation can only be done if the survey of krises is counducted according to groups. Sulu krises should be treated as one group and lanao's as another one, and so on and so forth. Another proof of Turkish and Tausug's meeting of cultures: There is a dance in sabah popular among tausugs (or suluk) called daling-daling-- it is a combination of arabic belly-dancing and indian classical dance. Not only did sarimanok motif come from turkey, daling-daling too was influenced by the turkish belly-dancing called chiftetelli. I just compared the musical beats and dance movements in both dance forms, the similarities are pretty obvious. I have always believed that to really understand the origin of a weapon, a general or holistic study should be done-- art, folklore, genealogy, genetics, geography, metallurgy, woodwork, warfare, spirituality, etc. That's what I want to attempt. |
Quote:
Quote:
Has there ever been evidence of "ears" on Kris. If not based on the profile alone of the hilt I could easily find several other swords with the same similar profile. |
While it was 50 years later, all of the yatagan Stones Glossary show "ears". Lord Edgerton of Tatton ( 1880 ) Only shows a Kyber knife and references it as a "Salawar Yatagan" and the profile of that hilt would bear a very similar profile to the one in Bruttons book though they are very different swords. Pictures of Turkish Yatagan in "Islamic Arms" from the Victoria and Albert museum show "ears". As do the photos of Yatagan in "Ancient Weapons from the collection of the state history museum Moscow ". I am in no way claiming all yatagan have ears. I am sure we can find examples without but I am saying I believe the lateral protrusions were the norm.
|
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1993.14.jpg
Above is a link to Sulayman the Magnificent's yataghan in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, dating from the early 1500s, which to my knowledge is the earliest known yataghan, apart from some examples in Croatian Museums with very questionable dating. Even those allegedly date back to the mid 15th century, from what I remember. In the late 1300s, to my knowledge, the Ottomans had still not completed their conquest of the Balkans, and did not have any naval access to the Indian Ocean. Only once they defeated the Mameluks and gained access to the Red Sea, they established a naval presence outside of the Mediterranean. I believe their naval expedition to India sailed in 1538. I would love it if there was a connection between Ottoman yataghans and kris from the Philippines. Unfortunately, I personally would need better evidence than the picture of a modern made fantasy sword, which might have been inspired by yataghans in its design (not convinced about this), but has none of the features of a traditional yataghan, especially when it comes to the hilt. However, people in Bulgaria, who do not know much about swords, would call any exotic sword a yataghan, particularly any curved sword, such as a kilidj or shamshir. Some of them, if shown a kris, might call it yataghan as well. I guess, yet another piece of evidence supporting Ms. Baganing hypothesis, even if the sword examples themselves fail to do so. Best regards, Teodor |
Quote:
|
Quote:
I believe Ariel was the one who discovered the reference to the 15th century yataghan in a book called Croatian Arms. No such yataghan is mentioned in the recently published book "Zbirka Yatagana" by Dora Boskovic (who I believe has an account here but rarely visits), which is a catalogue of yataghans from the Croatian History Museum in Zagreb. Therefore, for me at least, the 15th century yataghan is more of a legend and probably the result of wrong dating. :shrug: |
Quote:
Baganing, your project is both interesting and ambitious. However, you cannot just pick and choose the evidence that supports your theories and throw the rest away. No one is going to take that kind of research seriously. I know that personally i am always open to new discoveries and more than willing to see old paradigms toppled in the face of overwhelming new evidence. But what you present is just too easy to pick away at. It has no substance. Maybe you need to do just a little more field research yourself. It doesn't seem that you have even handled any old yagatans before developing this theory. You also admit to knowing very little about Malay keris. But this is obviously the origin of the Moro kris/kalis/sundang so maybe it would serve your research well if you spent a few years examining the history and roots of the keris before rushing to conclusions on the origins of the kris/kalis. The study of Malay keris is truly a lifetime's undertaking, but a little study might give you firmer ground on which to set your theories. "I have always believed that to really understand the origin of a weapon, a general or holistic study should be done-- art, folklore, genealogy, genetics, geography, metallurgy, woodwork, warfare, spirituality, etc. That's what I want to attempt." This is the the wisest thing you have posted so far. I don't think anyone here would argue with this. I would encourage you to continue in this quest. Unfortunately you will never accomplish this if you continue to disregard ideas and evidence when it fails to support your own theories.... or to disregard or disrespect other researcher and their questions to you when they disagree with what you want the truth to be. :) |
Quote:
What you say here is undoubtable true and it was the point i was trying to make much early when i brought up the fact that you can find this type of thing often on eBay. I never meant to imply, as Baganing took it, that eBay was a good place to research blades, just saying that these are much more likely to be sold to "those who travel for pleasure". But these relatively new style of long punal have nothing to do with the great history of the various Moro tribes and their weapons. As you state, you would never seen a Moro Datu or warrior with anything like this in early photographs. This style just did not exist before WWII. If it is called a kris by the present culture it is only because they have forgotten the quality and power that the kris once represented. I am talking about the weapon (and the warrior) that forced the U.S. Army to develop .45 caliber Colt. I have a sneaky suspicion that these stylized punals wouldn't be too effective in battle. ;) |
[QUOTE=David]Hey Lew, nice kris, especially that twisted core one at the end. Let me know if that puppy is ever looking for a new home, will ya? ;) :)
David I wish that twisted core puppy were mine. I am basically down to one Moro kris and one barong now :( I am concentrating on other areas besides kris/keris at present. I would get a bit bored with collecting only one type weapon have to keep it fresh. Jack of all trades master of none that's me. ;) :D Lew |
The Philippine history says that the Islamization of Mindanao happened in late 1300's. I am really doubtful of that date. 14th century Moroccan traveler Ibn Batuta, a Islamic scholar, reported that he was attack by the Hindus along the coasts on his way to China from India. He indicated that he reached Sumatra. It is obvious that those Hindus who attacked him were from Java, Borneo, Sulawesi, and Mindanao. Those four places were within his route to China but he never stopped and visited those places.
I am not denying that there were already Arab traders and Missionaries in Majapahit empire, but their numbers were negligible. The sunni Islam of Sultanate of Demak that toppled the Majapahit empire in mid 16th century was actually from Southern India-- Kerala and Tamil Nadu-- established by the seljuk turks of the Ottoman empire who reached India in 14th century. There are Turkish Anatolian and Turkish Safavid inscriptions found in Tanjore (Tamil Nadu) and Thiruvarur (Kerala). (J. P. Mulliner. Rise of Islam in India. University of Leeds) I believe the Sultanate of Demak, which was in the north coast of Java, was actually a Turkish state. Even the word "demak" came from "demek," the turkish word for "force." I think the use of 'Kilis" (from the Turkish kilich for sword) and later, "keris" started in north Java in the sixteenth century. This timeline fits within the date the word creese or kris entered the English vocabulary. Nicholas Turling wrote about the Turks in Java and Aceh in his book, The Cambridge History of Southeast Asia. Yataghan as a 16th century Turkish weapon also fits within the time line-- middle of 1500's. Another proof of the Turkish influence reaching as far as Mindanao is the word "arak" or "alak"--meaning, wine or liquor. It is not of sanskrit or tamil origin. araq is arabic for Juice and arak is turkish for wine or liquor. Using such etymologies, it is safe to say that the influence of the turks was more direct than the arabs. So as I see it, yatagan indeed reached the malay archipelago in the middle of 16th century during the time of suleiman the magnificent of the ottoman empire that spearheaded the spread of Islam to the balkans, mediterranean, europe, and asia. |
Quote:
"In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt." Clearly here is cited literary evidence that the word keris was in common usage in Jawa in the 14th century. Did you miss this or just choose to ignore it? It is a word which came about to describe a weapon of Jawa origin when Jawa was Hindu. The word keris may very well be older than this. The keris certainly is. Mr. Maisey also provided you with a very reasonable etymology for the word from roots in the Javanese language. Why on Earth would a Hindu Javanese culture use a Islamic influenced Turkish word to derive a name for a dagger that had so much cultural significance in Hindu Jawa? But hey, go on, keep trying to slam that square peg of yours into that round hole. :rolleyes: |
Ms. Baganing, why are you so intent on proving a connection between the Philippines and the Ottoman Empire in particular?
There were plenty of other Turks that reached India prior to the Ottomans, such as the Ghazni Empire for example. And while the Ottomans only led an unsuccessful expedition to India in the 16th century, the Mughals, also a Turkic dynasty, managed to actually conquer most of the subcontinent at around the same time. I completely agree with you that there was Turkic influence on Indian arms and armor, I just cannot understand why you are attributing it to the Ottomans, when historically their military, trading and cultural presence was negligible, compared to the presence of other powers. Also, you seem to completely neglect the Arab presence in South-Asia. I am not that familiar with the history of the region, so I could possibly be wrong, but I believe that Islam reached Aceh in Sumatra as early as the 7th century AD, when all Turks were still Tengrist. And Arabs had contacts with India even prior to Islam. Given all the Arab colonies and trading dating back centuries, I fail to see how the Arab presence in the region was "negligible" compared to the Ottoman presence, which never really materialized apart from a failed attack on a Portuguese fort in India. So again, why do you like the Ottomans for your hypothesis so much? |
Baganing Balyan, I wish that you will be able to conduct more research and then share with us linguistic evidence supported by historical, archaeological (I hope you did not forget this one) and DNA findings.
|
can you show me a 14th century text where "keris" is used? I have been looking for that text for years now.
|
Quote:
Using a genetic map, haplogroup J (for arabs) was not present in the Philippines, Sumatra, and Borneo before 1500. |
Ms. Baganing, I suggest you read my post, #24.
Herewith a quote from that post:- The principal literary works in which we find these words are the Nagarakertagama (approx. 1360), the Nawatnatya(14th century), the Pararaton (approx. 16th century), then there are minor references in the Rajapatigundala, and the Sarwardharma. In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt. In Pigeaud, Java in the Fourteenth Century, you will find the original texts, romanised, and a translation into English. |
Quote:
the two sides of the handle's pommel are not just ears. They are actually heads of the turkish mythical bird, anka-- Turkish for phoenix-- this is also known as simurgh or senmurv, a persian (iranian) word. Turkey and Iran, genetically, share the same haplogroup, G. The philippine's version of anka is sarimanok. In malay, angka means figure. In short, the pommel of yataghan is anka among the turks and angka among the malays. Yataghan is from yate (gate) and gan (beginning). Yataghan is "beginning of the gate." This is not only about the duty of a warrior to guard a leader but also a folklore known in Islam. The story goes that Sarimanok or anka was found by Muhammad in the seventh heaven. It is said to be the guard of heaven when the day of judgment comes. In Roman Catholicism, the guard of heaven is St. peter who is depicted with a key and a rooster. I am still researching which influenced which. Yataghan is also a symbolic sword in Islam. Suleiman the magnificent had a yataghan inlaid with jewels and gold. Ahmed Tekelu made it for him "as a weapon for the defender of the faith." (Our Sacred Signs by Ori Z. Soltes) Even the use of kakataw from cockatoo is not really correct. I have no idea how kakataw and cockatoo as a word and an image became related to kris or kalis when the tausugs, maguindanaos, maranaos, etc. know that muhammad's phoenix (or rooster) is definitely bigger and holier. Sarimanok would have been saribon in the philippines if its a tiny bird. |
Quote:
In Nawanatya, twek from tuwek, sanskrit for the sword's point, was used as a metaphor for men's masculinity. Twek is not a sword. It is where the filipino's tusok (thrust) from tuwok, a variation, came from. There is no 'Keris" "kris" or "Kalis" in Nagarakertagama (1365). kuriga was used in that time period. It is from the sanskrit khadga that became kharga, then kuriga-- a C or a K is a matter of choice. the word "keris" is in Pararaton. I don't wonder because the book was written in 16th century-- it is within my timeline. When I am done, I will post about naga and kuriga as the father and the mother of keris, kris, or kalis. |
correction on my one blog post that keras was the source of keris. it is actually the opposite.
I just got hold of the genetic map this week; hence, i am pretty sure now that keris is from the turkish word kilich which in malay is kilis because ch is pronounced as s in malay languages. L and R are also interchangeably used such as arak and alak (wine). |
Ms Baganing,
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic groups? Would you share more details? :) With migration of people since the 1600 and later... I'm just curious what can the DNA test prove? Let's take myself as an example, I'm a malay by birth, speak malay and brought up as one... but if a DNA test is done... What would be the result? My ancestors includes, from my father side, pakistan/indian influence, from my mother's side, malay, chinese, dutch influence. What will be the outcome and what will it prove? |
Quote:
It's very technical and confusing to explain Y-DNA and mtDNA tests. I leave that to the geneticists to explain. Y-DNA will tell you about the ancestor of your father. mtDNA will tell you where the ancestor of your mother came from. Now since you are multi-cultural, it would be a long work before you'll get the full picture. it's like building a family tree but instead of names, you use haplotypes and haplogroups. when it comes to research, I am not interested of a person's haplotype but his haplogroup. For Instance I am interested to find out how many haplogroups present in sulu and compare if the same haplogroups are present in borneo and sumatra. If they are the same, it means, the migration pattern and the peopling are the same. for example, philippines has rxr1, a haplogroup not seen in sumatra and borneo. Upon checking rxr1, the haplogroup that can be traced back to the cameroons of africa, I can then assume that indeed the theory about the early migration of the negritos (dark-skinned proto-filipinos) is indeed correct. As a matter of fact, we have african-looking ethno-linguistic groups in the philippines. After knowing that rxr1 is non-existent in borneo and sumatra, you can infer a lot of things: 1) by using a world map, you can see that cameroon, southern India (dravidians), and Philippines are geogrpahically parallel to each other and they all have rxr1. The early migration must have missed sumatra and borneo. This also proves that dark-skined dravidians or tamils did reach the philippines in ancient times. 2) since australian aborigines have rxr1, where did it come from. It can't be from India since it had to pass sumatra and borneo. There are two possibilities: it must be direct from cameroon or from the philippines-- Southern Mindanao (davao Region) in particular. I won't wonder. there are aetas, dark-skinned groups, in the region. So many possibilities. So many historical conventions to prove and disprove using the genetic map before 1500. |
Quote:
hehe, haven't really hit the water much this year, save for the artificial Flowrider. hopefully this winter. hawaii should be crankin' hard... |
Ms. Baganing, may I most humbly suggest that you further your studies just a little in the Old Javanese language, and it usages.
It is true, the word "kris" does not occur in the Nag., however, the word "kinris" does occur, 54.2/4:- tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap "kinris" means "to stab with a keris" the word "kinris" cannot exist in the absence of the word "kris", and the implement to which it refers. There is no Old Javanese word "kuriga"; unfortunately you are thinking in English and attempting to understand Old Javanese.The word you are attempting to render is "curiga", for an English speaker, this would be pronounced "chewreegah", but to an English speaker the Javanese pronunciation would sound like "chewreegoh" .The word "kuriga", if it did exist, which it does not, would sound like "kooreegoh". The "c" and the "k" is most definitely not a matter of choice; these two letters represent quite different symbols in the original Javanese text. I do understand your confusion in respect of "twek" and "tewek". This is hardly the place to educate you on your lack of understanding of the nature of the keris within the early and middle Javanese context, but you really do need to educate yourself. In Old Jawa the keris was a symbol of the male, however, the word "twek" referred to a stabbing weapon, or more precisely when coupled with the name of a weapon it referred to that weapon as a stabbing implement. Tewek is also found associated with the word "lingis"---a crowbar. Your interpretation of twek or tewek is incorrect.May I suggest that you spend a little time with Pigeaud and Zoetmulder? Professor Zoetmulder seemed to hold the opinion that the word kris could be found in written works as far back as the tenth century. I do find your ideas about middle eastern influence in the early Philippines to be interesting. You may have the germ of an idea here that when fully developed could provide us with new insights, however, when you stray into ideas and language associated with the early development of the keris, and the culture from which it came, you do impair your credibility. I once again encourage you to continue your studies, but I equally encourage you to refrain from comment in respect of those things which you do not understand, or only partially understand. In time to come your errors could return to haunt you. Restrict your comments to those things of which you have a firm grasp. |
Quote:
ask an american or european if he can say an aspirated K with H. I bet either one will end up producing the ch sound. That my friend is the linguistic subtlety only native speakers can detect. I am more confident of kuriga than curiga with ch sound because kuriga entered in the filipino languages as kuliga (poke or stick in). |
besides, if kuriga was curiga with ch sound, churiga would have evolved into suriga since ch in malay is turned into s. unfortunately there is no suriga in malay languages.
|
Quote:
Hindu and Buddist influence from India may have reached Aceh as early as the first century. sixth century A.D. Chinese chronicles. spoke of a kingdom on the northern tip of Sumatra named Po-Li. It is believed that Islam likely first entered the Indonesian archipelago through Aceh sometime between the 8th and 12th century. In 1292, Marco Polo, on his epic voyage from China visited Sumatra on his way to Persia and reported that in the northern part of the island there were at least six busy trading ports including Perlak, Samudera and lambri. In the middle of the 14th century, Pasai was invaded by Majapahit soldiers from Java If you are interested there was an excellent conference on Aceh history inlcuding a paper on archeological sites of ancient trade cities that I can send you a link on |
Ms. Baganing, for somebody whose initial posts seemed to promise so much, I find it a great shame that you have reached this point.
You are well and truly out of your depth. Nagarakertagama , canto 54 , stanza 2 reads:- 1. Staying behind were the wild boars, the black antelopes, the deer, the chevrotains, were the most excellent of them, continuously in fear. 2. The Illustrious Prince's proceeding was , having for consequence a horse, to follow them, noisily running. 3. Mandarins, headmen, clerical officers equally , the honoured ones who had their places with the horses, took part in the hunt. 4. Exterminated were the animals, thrusted , lanced, cut, krissed, dying without a gasp.(---tinumbak iniras kinris pjah tanpagap) The line I quoted is in a part of the Nag. to do with a hunt. The translation is Pigeaud's, not mine. Your knowledge of Javanese is non-existent. You tell us that you do not think that the romanised sound represented by "c" in Javanese is pronounced in a way that would approximate "ch" in the English language. You obviously have never heard Javanese spoken, and cannot read it. Please spare us any more of your linguistic analyses. Indonesian is my second language, and in my home I use English, Javanese and Indonesian every day. If you wish to pass comment upon a language, please do yourself a favour, and learn that language first. As to tewek. I apologise for not providing you with complete information on this word. Had I done so you might have not made yourself appear so ridiculous. In Old Javanese there are two meanings for the word tewek. The first is to do with weapons, and I will return to that in a moment. The second is a word that has an association with time, cause and origin; this meaning does not concern us here, so I will return to the first meaning. The word tewek, also given as twek, and with tuhuk as a synonym, refers to a pointed weapon. Actually, it is sometimes difficult to determine exactly what weapon it does refer to, but when it is used, it is found in the context where it could be substituted with either keris or pedang, however, on other occasions it is found coupled with pedang or keris, indicating a way in which the pedang or keris is being used.When it is used alone, but it is followed by a verb indicating use of a keris, then clearly it refers to a keris in that context also. The word atewek can mean to use a keris, or to stab oneself with a keris, or to have or use a stabbing weapon. A panewek is a stabbing tool. Atewek-tewekan means to stab repeatedly. Your understanding of the word tewek is absolutely and utterly incorrect. You are wrong. When you fail to take note of the work of Pigeaud and Zoetmulder, you make yourself appear to be an unlettered oaf, which I am quite certain you are not, but it does surprise, no, not surprise, amaze me, that any serious anthropologist working in a South East Asian culture could fail to be aware of the stature of these two giants. Ms. Baganing, please do restrict yourself to comment on those things you may know something about. It is clear that you know less than nothing about the Javanese culture, the Javanese language, and the Javanese keris. |
Quote:
If you are looking for The Ottomans in Aceh a path towards the the Philippines the link below is a paper you may find interesting entitled "Ottoman-Aceh Relations Accordingto the Turkish Sources" Ismail Hakkı GÖKSOY Suleyman Demirel University, Faculty of Theology, Isparta, Turkey Presented at First International Conference of Aceh and Indian Ocean Studies 24 – 27 February 2007 Here is the link http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/Aceh-...akkigoksoy.pdf I hope it proves helpful |
2 Attachment(s)
I would just like to add a word about similarity of form. In the world there are just so many shapes. Every culture has a fascination and deep seated mythologies about birds. They are often used as motifs in all of these cultures and when stylized the similarities become even stronger. As a trained percussionist i have often marveled at the similarities between the ritual rhythms of various cultures spread all across the globe. I was recently noting a rhythm in some Indonesian music that sounds very much like one i know that originated in the Congo. There are, infact, root rhythms that transcend all cultures. This is not because these cultures have had contact with each other. It is merely the nature of things.
Someone just recently pointed out the pyamid at Candi Sukuh in Jawa to me. Let us compare it to the Mayan temple of Chichen Izza. So what do you think Baganing. Did the Mayans make their way to Jawa in the 15th century and influence the temple form at Candi Sukuh. :shrug: ....of course, there is always my old favorite, the aliens from space theory... ;) :D |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
I have no doubt that Islamic arabs from middle east reached the malay archipelago, but dna mapping suggests that they did not last long for their haplogroups did not take root in the malay archipelago. Maybe they are just traders or traveling missionaries or even ancient tourists like ibn batuta. Early yatagans have no anka pommels, but the blades were inlaid with gold and jewels using anka motif. Later when the yatagans got anka pommels, the inlaid bird motifs, generally, could no longer be found on the blade. the yatagan of suleiman the magnificent is the good example. |
Quote:
First, let me say that Alan Maisey has an incredible knowledge of Java. There is no doubt in my mind that his opinion and ideas regarding Java are correct! He has a depth of understanding that comes from over 40 years of in-depth research and understanding of this culture and their history. If he says it is so, then it is so. Anyone who took the time to get to know him would understand this. But in regard to the overall thread, PLEASE! There is enough acrimony in the world. Could we discuss the validity, or invalidity of these concepts and ideas, without personal attacks? If a person makes a dumb statement, that is merely a dumb, or incorrect, statement. It does not necessarily mean the person is dumb, or incorrect all the way through. So, could we just attack or defend the statements before the principal of this school closes the classroom? There are some good ideas here. |
Quote:
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. Mr. Maisey both address the substance of your agrument (in great detail) and produces evidence. If you don't choose to agree with the argument that is one thing. But perhaps you should learn the meaning of ad hominem before you use it incorrectly again. :rolleyes: Sorry that you feel attacked by Mr. Maisey (and probably others including myself), but i believe you have brought this upon yourself. Personally i'm getting just a little bit frustrated with you myself. Constantly repeating your theories without providing any substance and refusing to address the numerous questions that have been asked of you will not gain you any points or friends around here. What is your agenda exactly? Obviously your theories are not being well received here. Do you intend to brow beat us into submission? I would think that any reasonable researcher would come to a forum like this looking for ideas to help in their research. Obviously you do not care for any of ours. You just want to preach your own. Their is literally hundreds of years of experience here. Mine is the very least of it. I admittedly no very little and am here to learn. Why are you here? Do realize that Mr. Maisey's experience alone with the keris spans more than 50 years....that he was also trained in the art of keris making by a well known and respected kraton empu who he apprenticed with for over 10 years. He has been emmersed in the culture of the keris and Jawa and Bali far longer than your existence on this Earth. What is your experience with the keris the or Moro kris or anything for that matter? Where and what have you studied? Who were your teachers? Why should i take your word for anything to do with the keris or Javanese language? Tell me and i will listen and consider. But you only continue to put forth a rambling and disjointed lecture with nothing more than the weakest of circumstantial evidence and ask us to buy into you theories without support or argument. Good luck with that! :rolleyes: |
Quote:
for instance spear-hunting on a horse is pretty obvious that kris cannot be used. That's a valid idea. I just don't think people in java long ago ran with the antelopes, deers, and wild boars wielding krises or kerises. It is also possible that they speared them first then used the krises or kerises-- only if the animals were slaughtered in temples as sacrifices since temple swords are used even today in India for that purpose-- I just don't think keris or kris is a hunting sword. spearing, cutting, stabbing an animal is so not an Indo-budhhist thing-- it is so anti-karma and dharma. that kind of hunting would be overkill. I hear and read a lot about spear-hunting in malay archipelago but not kris-hunting. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:01 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.