The smallsword, apart from being an expensive fashion accessory was simply a weapon designed to do quick and severe damage from a distance, whether it was for self defence or a duel. The blade no matter how sharp would not have enough weight to make an effective slashing weapon. The only really effective blade for cutting as opposed to hacking is curved one which could be drawn through the cut for maximum effect.
An example of selective use for a sword can be seen in the new cavalry sabre, designed by a committee of experts and used by the British cavalry from 1908 It was a complete departure from any horseman's sword seen before, being straight and narrow with little real cutting edge, the guard was large and the grip shaped to fit the hand with the arm fully extended. it was little more than a hand held lance. All in all an ugly device that was not received well by the users, but declared by many to be the ultimate design for cavalry use.
Mel.

The picture is very blurred but looks like a Klingenthal... Can you reshoot the blade please... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ooops
 

Yes, very messy, and me an ex pro photographer; sorry about that.[IMG]

insight
 

It's Coulaux and Bros, isn't it?

Reference
 

History of Klingenthal

At the beginning of the 18th century, king Louis XV decided to create a state-controlled sword manufacturing company in order to limit the imports of Solingen blades to France. In 1733, the Manufacture d'Armes Blanches d' Alsace commenced operation with the help of 25 skilled workers from Solingen, Germany. The Alsace province, in East of France, was chosen for the availability of iron mines, forges and woods for charcoal, but also because the local language was similar to German.
In 1768, accommodation for the Director and his staff (artillery officers) was built in a place called Klingenthal (Klingen=blades, thal= valley), the factory became Manufacture de Klingenthal . Under this name, thousands of blades were produced until the end of the 19th century.

Organization

The Manufacture de Klingenthal belonged to the government, but its general management was entrusted to a government-appointed entrepreneur. The entrepreneur operated in a purely fiscal role. His task was to buy the source material (iron ingots, charcoal etc.), pay with his own money the salaries of the workers, and organise the company in order to comply with the contracts of the government. The government then bought the finished products from him, leaving him a profit of about 20%. The plant Director controlled the production for the military contracts. He was an artillery senior officer, appointed for only a few years (2-4 usually), and helped by a staff of around four artillery officers. It was his responsibility to maintain quality control and control of speed of production etc. to fulfil the government contracts. He reported immediately to the army, and earned no more than his officer's salary.
The Revisers and Controllers were highly skilled workers in charge of the training of the other workers and the quality control of blades and swords for the military contracts. From 1808 onwards, they were considered members of the artillery corps.

There is no doubt that COULAUX was the best-known entrepreneur of Klingenthal. The Coulaux brothers applied for the job of entrepreneur in February 1801 and the family remained in charge of the management of the Manufacture de Klingenthal until the firm ceased business in 1962.

Hollow Blades
 

Can we assume from this that there was a three-wheel milling machine at Klingenthal?

First Solingen workers at Klingenthal.
 

Johann Dietrich Benninghaus,
Mathias Michael Schmid,
Caspar Engels
Arnold Schmidt,
Wilhelm Kind,
Abraham Wundes,
Clemens Evertz
Andreas Aschauer,
Abraham Eichhorn,
Wilhelm Kind
Abraham DEGARD (Teegarten)

Interesting...

Here is a colichemarde from London... It is stamped on the knuckleguard but could be an imported blade I suppose...See https://www.antique-swords.eu/silver...ichemarde.html

Klingenthal grinders. SEE http://www.benjaminarms.com/research...s/klingenthal/

here and there
 

When you look at the history of Klingenthal what becomes immediately apparent is that Shotley Bridge could have survived alongside Birmingham but it didn't. The reasons for its demise are up ahead on my 'to do' list.

ps
 

Fantastic photo Ibrahiim.

pps
 

They are all tri-form hollow blades they are holding.

Salaams Mel~ On the point (scuse pun) about the Brown Bess Bayonet! When the soldier’s musket was empty he relied on the bayonet, which had a sharp, triangular section blade of about 44cm. British bayonet charges were greatly feared by enemy troops. The soldiers were very keen to engage the enemy with their bayonets and often thought that they should be allowed to ‘give them the Brummagen’. (Brummagen is a slang name for Birmingham where many bayonets were made.

Not too sure about that, they're a little wide toward the tips they could be straight infantry sword blades that would fit better with the date.
Mel.

ditto. they look like std. fullered blades, smallswords were well out of fashion by the time of the photo.

Yes, that was why I mentioned it. I've taken a closer look on my PC rather than my tablet and you are both correct: not small-swords.
Great picture though.

I don't think they are. Rather they are blades for the standard 1882 infantry swords with the offset fullers (cannelure) which became apparent mid 19th century. Note the fuller terminating before the foible. The blades are lenticular rather than concave. The appearance in the photo deceived by lighting and luster.

My colonial fantastique circa 1870 with a Coulaux/Klingenthal blade.

Cheers
GC

French Open
 

Hello Mr Hotspur, or shall I call you Harry. Yes, once I viewed the photo on my PC rather than my tablet I realised they were not small-swords. The reason I commented was it seemed wrong given the date.
How come Klingenthal survived and Shotley Bridge didn't? They were both Solingen workers abroad. Could it simply be the addition of quality blades from Birmingham that made the difference?
I'm very impressed with my 'hollow-blade' court sword from the Coulaux Brothers: it's a superb blade.

ps
 

I took note of what you said regarding the off-set fullers; I'm a complete novice in the blade world so they are certainly unlike anything I've seen before.

Perhaps a number of factors not least the weight of the French Government behind the Kingenthal operation whist Shotley was in decline and workers were being absorbed abroad and into the Birmingham sector. Klingenthal was also a lot closer to Solingen which by comparison to the Shotley concern was massive. Expert grinders and sword makers were close to hand whilst at Shotley they were leaving..as business dwindled.

Very well noted Ibrahim! As you note Klingenthal was very much government backed, and Solingen was actually pretty much 'overpopulated' with their becoming more commercialized and exporting widely.
Most importantly, as you have said, Birmingham was becoming ever more industrially oriented and determined to keep their market share over Solingen. No doubt the Shotley Bridge workers and demand went to the Birmingham and London area, much as we have seen with names like Mole.

Glen, great to see you here!!! You're an encyclopedia on the swords of these periods!

It has to be said that here in the U.K. where matters of government and industry are discussed, the North / South divide is usually introduced into the equation. I'm sure that a couple of centuries since, a small community of tradesmen in some unheard of corner of England, two hundred and fifty miles from the Capital would certainly not have much going in their favour.
Many people 'up here' would quickly add that not much has changed, but that's another story.
Mel.

Definitely another story, Mel !

See http://www.klingenthal.fr/anglais_2_a.htm for an interesting timescale at Klingenthal. :shrug:

Mohll versus Mole
 

Hey Jim, sorry to ruin a distinctly glossy sheen on the Shotley Bridge image but there is definitely no connection between Mohll of Shotley Bridge and Mole of Birmingham. It was Robert Wilkinson-Latham's book 'The Swords and Records of Robert Mole and Sons (from 2008) where he declared the sad news. Apparently it was a genealogical trace-back from the Moles of Birmingham, and forward from Mohll of SB, and no connection was found. I have to say that the dates never lined up anyway as Mohll sold his entire works to Oley in 1724.
Here is an extract from an interesting article, that Ibrahiim has mentioned before, that tells of The Guild of the Running Fox:
.....Wilkinson Sword – the crossed swords logo of that company is believed to have come from the emblem of the “Guild of the Running Fox” – the Shotley Bridge sword makers' guild. The few remaining clues left are the Crown and Crossed Swords pub (originally owned by the Oleys), Cutlers Hall (the guild meeting place, now a private house) and the crossed swords on the old logo of the Shotley Bridge Hospital.
That's a great resource on Klingenthal Ibrahiim, thank-you.
Re. Klingenthal: back then, Birmingham was the 'Second City of the Empire'; Shotley Bridge had no chance really, once the Solingen secrets had migrated to Birmingham.
I haven't looked at Birmingham's early sword-making history: does anyone know of a good concise book on the subject? Or even just a comprehensive article. Mel?

Verification
 

I am now firmly convinced that the symbol of the bushy-tailed running fox (that - locally - has long been associated with Shotley Bridge) was started by Oley when the guild was established.
What I really want to find out is: was there, in-fact, any connection with Birmingham at any time, now we know it wasn't Mohll?

Crucible steel
 

It would appear that once Huntsman invented his 'crucible steel' method in 1740, that the secrets of forging sword blades would not be far behind. It looks like Thomas Gill was in at the start (1783) probably because he was a watch and clock maker, the same as Huntsman but also because of his huge manufactory.
This is an extract from Bezdek's book 'The Swords and Swordmakers of England and Scotland'.

In 1783, the Earl of Surrey (a member of the Treasury Board) sent a letter to a Mr. Eyre of the town council of Sheffield, informing him of a petition by the London sword sellers (cutlers) under consideration to allow German sword blades into England duty free. (The reason was that English blade makers could not provide quality sword blades at a reasonable price.) The earl wanted sword blade quality and price information from Eyre on Sheffield makers.
• Since few sword blades were being made at Sheffield, Mr. Eyre sent a copy to Thomas Gill of Birmingham.
Gill sent a letter to the Treasury Board, saying he could make sword blades of equal quality to German blades.
In 1786 following up a demand from the east India Company for 10,000 cavalry swords,
he sent 2,650 blades; and subjecting them to the Matthew Boulton tests only four were rejected. = 0.15%
Harvey: 1,700 and 42 rejected. = 2.4%
Woolley: 1,000 and 19 rejected. = 1.9%
Runkel: 1,400 and 28 rejected. = 2%

I would say that was pretty good going for a relative novice in competition with German blades.
Please correct me if I am in error anywhere here because I am, as you know, a novice on this subject.

RUNKEL: See https://www.mq.edu.au/macquarie-arch...rd/runkel.html

Quote"RUNKEL, Johann Justus (c1751–1808)
One of the most important London merchants dealing in Solingen blades was the sword cutler Johann Justus Runkel. His trading premises were located at 8 Tookes Court, Holborn and he was a member of the Cutler's Company (the trade guild), though his business was mainly importation – blades, fully made up swords, and even unmanufactured steel. In the period 1795–1808 he was probably the most important London merchant dealing in Solingen blades."Unquote.

Harvey; Example of Sword blade mark. ...A British Militia Sword - maker Samuel Harvey (no scabbard) Marked to Rutland Militia. A nice militia sword 28'' polished curved blade, once polished, but now dark. A few lightly pitted areas, but the blade is pretty good. Maker marked on both sides with a running wolf and SH (Samuel Harvey - swordsmith in Birmingham 1730-1748) Brass heart-shaped hilt, with a turned down short quillon. Wooden handle, round pommel.

The following website seeks details on a number of our suspects viz Gill, Harvey, Deakin, Woolley ~http://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum...woolley.11996/

Thank you Ibrahiim another nice mark for my collection, I collected together a picture of every Shotley Bridge name stamping or fox of any type that I saw, in the flesh, as it were, or from books or catalogues, for more than twenty years. I had over sixty different ones and unfortunately lost them all in a hard disc crash a couple of years since. No ones fault but my own, we all know the risks we take in not backing up. I've started again and will keep at it.
I had pictures that showed only the words, sometimes full spellings, sometimes abbreviated and occasionally, together with straight line 'wolf'. they tended to be earlier swords. I can not remember seeing a named one that had a bushy tailed fox. Maybe they wanted to show a sign of quality without giving away the name of the place that they had taken refuge.
One of the things that I remember was that the SH in the Harvey ones was not always in the same place within the body of the fox, which would indicate that the fox may have been stamped onto the blade first then the letters added. It has to be considered that his blades may have been made at Shotley Bridge and stamped there with the trademark together with the additional SH letters, as part of the contract.
Just food for thought.
Having said all of that I'm sure that over the time they were operating there they must have produced a large amount which would mean that they are not as rare as we think they are, we just simply don't recognise them because many were never marked.
Mel.

Mel...Maybe the running Fox never appeared on Shotley swords. Notwithstanding the name given in some quarters ...and reiterated by me ...and noted by Kieth...The Guild of the Running Fox:
.....Wilkinson Sword – the crossed swords logo of that company is believed to have come from the emblem of the “Guild of the Running Fox” – the Shotley Bridge sword makers' guild. The few remaining clues left are the Crown and Crossed Swords pub (originally owned by the Oleys), Cutlers Hall (the guild meeting place, now a private house) and the crossed swords on the old logo of the Shotley Bridge Hospital.
It never stated and I believe never meant to associate bushey fox tails on blades by this guild...but fits in with the Wilkinson crown and crossed swords of course...

But was this a guild that placed bushy tail foxes on blades...? I suspect not...and since none have been found ? What did that mean? Did it perhaps mean that the so called running fox of Shotley was in fact the wolf of Passau...? and that the running Fox wasn't being used at Shotley... but the Passau Wolf was...because the sword makers were all Solingen people...When Birmingham kicked in they used the Bushey tail Fox.... often if not all done by SH Samuel Harvey in Birmingham. Birmingham is much nearer Stratford than Shotley Bridge is... and it was W. Shakespeare who noted the Fox sword in his plays...and where did he live? Henley Street, Stratford-upon-Avon ...but anyway he had a house in London as well. Surely if Shotley had been turning out bushey tailed fox swords there would be loads of them about... There aren't any... I think I have only seen one probably spuriously applied..

Oley and the fox
 

This was the sale that began to convince me (see image); I called the auctioneer and asked him how he knew it was an Oley blade and he said the vendor had come from nearby SB and had personal experience of its provenance. The bushy tailed fox is obvious.
It also matches the style of sword Nicholas Oley is seen holding that was his grandfather's final sword (i.e. c.1830) so we know Oley was making this style of sword in the 1800s.[IMG]

Salaams Kieth ~ Some caution here...I suspect the auctioneer is being frugal with the truth of the matter...and anyone who says he had some personal experience...what does that mean?... is implying a whole lot...if it is to be believed. The sword may be vaguely similar in structure to the black and white picture but is it absolute proof ? It's a difficult one... Can someone show another Shotley Bridge sword with a bushy tail Fox on it... ? If they were using that motif there should be hundreds or thousands out there...and there are none to my knowledge.

I would venture further that there is a mix up with the Guild of the Running Fox and the apparent use of a Crown and Crossed Sword seen on Wilkinson Swords, the bushy tail Fox emblem..and the Passau Wolf form.

In my view the animal placed by Shotley swordmakers was the Wolf. The same as the Wolf of Passau.

The Bushey Tail Fox emblem was I suspect only put by one swordmaker.. SH Samuel Harvey in Birmingham.


.

Solingen
 

This may be a stupid question to the cognoscenti, but I confess to being a novice as you should know by now, so here goes:
Solingen apparently had the famous 'hollow' grinding machine causing much unrest in the 1680s; has anyone seen a hollow-blade/colichmarde marked from Solingen.
This was before Klingenthal and before Shotley Bridge; who else could be supplying the French? Were the blades from Solingen going to France signed in any way?

Here is an example of the many swords mistakenly presented as from Shotley... In this case said to have been; A scarce late 17th Century Shotley Bridge sword, with 33 1/2in. blade and three-quarter length fuller bearing the Running Wolf mark with the initials `SH` incorporated, brass knuckle guard and wire-bound shark skin grip, 40in. long overall; contained in a modern mahogany presentation case. ~ But a more spurious description there can hardly be ...since this is a Samuel Harvey Birmingham sword. The so called running wolf in this case likely to be a Bushy Tail Fox! with the initials SH inside that.

Samuel Harvey (born 1698) who was making swords between 1748 until his death in 1778 his mark was the running fox which can usually be clearly seen on both sides of the blade. The family business was continued by his son and grandson of the same name, the last of which died in 1810.

Salaams Kieth,
See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16753

The whole thread is less than a page but is important reading. There is another example at #22 on that thread.. Clearly Solingen were exporting to France swords for refinishing but the essential German data was included on the blades.

Obviously the German sword makers of Solingen were confident that their Colichemarde blade machines could not be copied and in this regard they appear to have been right.

Regarding Samuel Harvey and at http://doczz.net/doc/617698/british-...%94an-overview It is noted that Samuel Harvey had a son Samuel Jr. who continued the business til 1795 viz;

Quote"Some research with cutlasses having viewer’s
marks and manufacturers names also enables one to generally identify the supplier according to the viewer mark.
Plate 29 on reference shows the hilts for three of these cutlasses.
The one on the left is early and without a viewers mark indicating it predates 1788. The blade has a spear point and is 28
1/2 inches long and 1 3/16 inch wide. It is marked with a
running fox and Harvey on the reverse and a different fox
like mark on the British. The iron hilt is solid (no seam), its
disks are essentially round, and the turned down quillon is
relatively wide. Samuel Harvey Sr. was a Birmingham sword
maker that provided cutlasses to the Royal Navy from 1748
to 1778 and his son, Samuel Jr. continued through 1795.
The absence of viewer marks would indicate that Harvey Sr,
made this cutlass.
The middle one is a later version of a similar cutlass.
The blade is similar but slightly shorter—27 1/2 inches long
and 1 1/4 inch wide. It is marked with a Crown/4 viewers
mark, and a running fox with initials (undecipherable) on
the guard. There are also undecipherable marks on the blade
tip. The disks are oblong, the iron hilt has a seam, and the
turned down quillon is relatively narrow. The viewer’s mark
indicates this cutlass was supplied by Gill, another
Birmingham supplier (1783–1803)"Unquote.

Something's fishy here.
 

Thank-you Ibrahiim, that is exactly what I was looking for.
So, my questions now are these: if such swords exist i.e. the ones finished in France from Solingen blades, and are relatively easy to locate, where are the British equivalents?
While I am inclined to agree with the apparent singularity of the grinding mill, I cannot understand why applications for patents were attempted prior to 1685, if no-one here in Britain had 'the machine'. Unless they thought they could either make one... or procure one.
And why not set-up shop anyway? If no-one else had a machine, they didn't need a patent, other than to protect themselves from Solingen imports. There's something fishy about this whole business. It sounds to me like they were attempting to corner the market on Solingen hollow-blade imports, not make the blades themselves.
If anyone, prepared to pay or smuggle, could nip over to Rotterdam and pick up a chest of hollow blades, then only the smiths in Solingen and the finishers here were going to profit. The patent applications were from blade-smiths and grinders, hence my suspicions.