Thank you so much, Samuel,

For the great historical illustrations and your comments!

Best,
Michael

early katzbalger
 

Dont mention it Michael :)

It seems however that the more complex hilted katzbalgers existed even earlier than I (we? ;) ) thought.

A fabulous painting done by Vittore CARPACCIO called " Portrait of a Knight " dated 1510 , shows a young man clad in complete harness (- the helmet) and armed with what appears to be a fully developed katzbalger. Note the "figure-8 or S-shaped guard" as well as the distinctive pommel more typical for the mid/later part of 16th century.
Judging from the picture one could speculate that the weapon was also favoured among the men-at-arms/cream of the fighting nobility , not just the Knecht mercenaries. :shrug:

Take a look:

http://www.wga.hu/art/c/carpacci/5/03knight.jpg


Link to the source gallery : http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/htm.../03knight.html


Best,
Samuel

Thank you so much indeed, Samuel, :)

That painting truly is a highly important source of illustration and I fully agree with your thesis that Katzbalgers were not only Knecht (mercenaries') weapons. If I am interpreting it right the pommel on Carpaccio's 1510 painting is gilt; we know of surviving Katzbalgers with gilt hilts and pommels, e.g. in the Vienna Leibrüstkammer.

Sure, we can imagine that some of the more successful mercenaries could afford to have the hilts of their swords gilt - or they just took one from a person they had killed. But the source you have come up with here is sensational in that it proves your surmise that the use of these swords was not limited to the lower people!:cool:


Thanks again for sharing it.

All the best,
Michael

A few early 16th century sources of illustration from Geiler v. Kaisersberg, The Passion of Christ, Strassburg, 1508 (the first two), and Titus Livius, Mainz, 1514.

M.

An illustration by Georg Pencz, Nuremberg, 1530's: The Suicide of Artemesia.

M.

By the same artist, dated 1535.

M.

Early 16th century Landsknecht swords in the Musée de l'Armée, Paris
 

A Grosses Messer, ca. 1500, and five swords of ca. 1530-40.

16th century hand-and-a-half and two hand swords, Paris, Musée de l'Armée
 

Enjoy!

:)

.

This is the best thread ever!

Oh my God - thank you, Dmitry,

It's acknoledges like these that make me blush but they make all my efforts so much more worth while at the same time and keep me going.

But don't forget it's not my field of actual expertise, just something off the track.

Best,
Michael

That, to me, sounds pretty intimidating. And with a good reason to! One day I will probably catch up, but it will take a very long time.

Regarding post no.7, looking at the first picture, reminded me of the Conyers Falchion, the precise dating of which is still up in the air, if I'm not mistaken.

http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm

Quite right, Dmitry,

I was not aware though that the dating of the Conyer's Falchion was still a matter of dispute. When last talking to Graeme Rimer of The Royal Armouries Leeds I remember him telling me that they were quite sure about its date of make. Maybe new aspects have arisen since ...

Best,
Michael

That could very well be. I have seen dates as early as 11th c., or as late as the 14th. What is the dating of it, according to the Royal Armouries? I couldn't find it on the web.

The Conyer's Falchion
 

Ca. 1200, plus/minus 100 years.

Grrr, thought I forgot to photograph it but on second thought I am afraid I never actually saw it; it is the property of Durham Cathedral, North East England, not of the Leeds or London museums, and probably not even on display there. I will try to do some research and let you know.

For more information on that and related items, please go

http://bjorn.foxtail.nu/h_conyers_eng.htm

Best,
Michael

An even madder grrr: no color photo on the web or in any of my books! :mad:

m

I don't want to divert from the subject matter of this "best ever" thread. Perhaps the moderator can move these posts into a separate Conyers Falchion thread?
Meanwhile, here's the most detailed description of the piece, along with some photos.

Archaeologia Aeliana, or, Miscellaneous tracts relating to antiquity, Volume 15
By Society of Antiquaries of Newcastle upon Tyne

http://books.google.com/books?id=5e4...lchion&f=false

Nice idea! :)

Still what's needed most in my opinion would be high quality and topic color pics.

At the same time I wish that members more experienced than I would do the posting on this subject. That too should be considered in my opinion when making it a thread on its own.

Good night to all you nightowls out there (and all the others),
Michael

Keep on struggling, buddy,

It actually took me over 250 priviledged museum visitis taking more than 270,000 photos, plus a private reference library of over 3,000 books and catalogs - apart from building up an important collection of over 60 optimum preserved and documented historical pieces from 1360-1700, and more than 300 pieces of important related accouterments - plus 30 years of hardest work all around the clock ... - no kidding !!! :cool: :eek:

Don't get frightened though but hang on and lput down your sacrifices on the altar of historical weaponry ...

Best,
Michael

Fine Early 16th C. Two Handed Swords in The Zurich Museum
 

Ca. 1550, the richly fullered blade inscribed

'JOUR BIEN / I(N) TE DOMINE SPERAVI / IT NON CONFONDAR / SERVI ABSERVE'
on one sinde and
'IE(SU) PRIESTE / SI DEUS PRO NOBIS QUIS / CONTRA NOS IHS / MON MESTRE'.

Overall length 165,8 cm.

Author's photos (color), scans from Hugo Schneider/Karl Stüber, Waffen im Scgweizerischen Landesmuseum; Griffwaffen I (sadly no second volume was ever published ..)

Best,
m

More early 16th century swords in Zurich
 

Enjoy.

A Schweizer Säbel by Christoph Stantler I., ca. 1530-35, in Zurich
 

Extremely fine piece.
I Switzerland it was called a Schneppf.

Here's a very good bastard sword that just sold on eBay for $2300. Even with a broken blade I think it was more than a reasonable price for such a wonderful hilt.

Hi Dmitry,

As we all realize, wonders are not exactly common, and so are genuine early pieces on Ebay. If it were not so, everybody paying ten times these sums in leading arms and armor sales would be crazy. In fact, the connoisseur can tell wrong from right and Historismus from Renaissance and only that is what accounts for the prices.

It is a nice Historismus fantasy piece, late 19th c.; this shape of the hilt with rectangular pas d'ane never existed in the early 16th century.

Sorry to bust another myth,
and best,
Michael

Though I have smaller experience I must agree. Saw that when auction was active. The work of the hilt seems superb, but I've never seen an angular side "ring".

Exactly.

This side 'ring' should rather be called a stirrup.

So Dmitry, better rejoice and sing for not purchasing it. It was not even worth the ebay price but all should have been done at ca. 500 USD. As often on ebay people get carried away in bidding driven by false hopes, thinking they are making a bargain ...

Good and really early items almost never go to ebay but the specialized sales.

Best,
Michael

Hello Michael, I must say, I have enjoyed this topic!

There is always much to be learned.
Not having anything worthwhile to add, I have kept out of it, but wanted you to know I am here...shuffling around in the background!.....

Hello Richard,

It's so good to at least read some lines of you after that long silence. Your brilliant queries and comments are much missed here!

Please hang on a bit more than just shuffling in the background ...

Best as always,
Michael

Landsknecht related swords from The historical kingdom of Hungary
 

Many thanks gentlemen for uploading those marvelous pieces ;)

To contribute I recently got this little gem into my hands called Régi Magyar Fegyverek by János Kalmár. It features a couple of early 16th century Hungarian swords that bear a great deal of "Landsknecht" (and most probably Italian) influence:

Sword of Hungarian monarch Louis II (the young king from Jagellionian dynasty who died at Mohacs in 1526) which looks very much like a period katzbalger:
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6137/p1020601h.jpg

closeup:
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4800/p1020602c.jpg




3 Hungarian swords from the first half of 16th century :

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9385/p1020618gz.jpg

closeup:
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/5313/p1020619o.jpg

Note the pallashe-like scabbard. Don't really know if these belong to the original pieces or had been a later addition...
(a bit of OT: they could in fact be an early verion of a pallashe, since such "italianate" sword-hilts were also fashionable on cavalry estocs of the period... some even among ottoman border troops! Still, to my eyes the swords seem a bit shortish for a cavalry weapon...)

Cheers,
Samuel

Great, Samuel, thank you,

Could you get me a copy of Janos Kalmar's Régi Magyar Fegyverek? I realize there existed an earlier 1970's edition but could not get hold of it. Is this a revised reprint as the original edition contained only very poor b/w photos?

Best,
Michael

Check your PM ;)

Done, pal, and answered! ;)

I'm sorry to say that not sold on the 'historismus' bastard yet. I'm positive I've seen a similar hilt in a museum collection book, described as period. As usual, I don't remember where. Will comb through my library over the next few days.

Sold Bonhams, London, 29 April 2010.

You guys ROCK!

I've fallen in love and all of this Medieval/Renaissance pornography is making me sweat :Big Grin:

The 1.5 hander in the Musee de L'Armee recalls a wonderful 15th c. storta in Swords and Hilt Weapons (Nicholson, 1989)

http://vikingsword.com/vb/attachment...id=17415&stc=1

Please keep it up, these threads are GOLD!

Best regards,
Emanuel

The storta in your photo is in the Metropolitan Museum Collection. It's attributed to mid-16th c.
I make sure to look at it every time I visit the Met.

Hi Emanuel,

I didn't realize this was a porn forum ... :D :rolleyes: - but of course I grasped your point and say thanks!

Best,
Michael

Thanks, good to know. Weidenfeld and Nicholson (Swords and Hilt Weapons, 1989) where I got the photo dated it to 1490. Magnificent example! I will certainly make a point of visiting the Met when I get to NY.

Please do and take close-ups!

m