As an educator who has also done field research using phenominology, anthropology, sociology, psychology, and history of world religions background (not including my theology and psychiatric backgrounds), I have learned that the more I learn, the more I realize I need to learn. I try to instill this in my students. The best teacher is the greatest student. For me this also means having a humility toward those who I meet. I may know things, but since I am finite, this means that even what I have learned from my field informants and those with whom I live needs improvement constantly. Even Muhammad (peace be upon him) had a humility to embrace others and learn from them. To completely dismiss the knowledge even of misguided writers of the turn of the century is foolish at best.

I am saddened by your attitude and anger. You have some good points, but so do the others. If I ever thought I was the sole repository of all the knowledge of even my own ancestors, I would be cutting myself off from more learning and even God and what God could do through me.

To come back with comments that are heated are indicative of some other things that are not in the realm of this forum. It appears like there is a need to be heard, but not a need to hear.

When it comes to PI and Moro knowledge I need to learn an aweful lot (this is also true of American Indian and Celtic things), but at the same time. However I remain silent because of being dismissed out of hand. By the way, I am Filipino, Scots-Irish, and Cherokee American Indian. Do I know all about these influences and peoples - no. Only God does, and compared to God, I am dumber than a brick.

Alan, unfortunately you have a very good point.

Hello Miya,

I agree that the tone of some posts could be a tad more constructive but that includes some of your own ones, too. Let's try to discuss ideas/facts rather than the participants and their knowledge, please.


Didn't you said you were Mandaya rather than Moro? I'm certain there are misconceptions just about any ethnic group, culture, etc. though. That does include any of the participants' backgrounds. ;)


Granted, Moro is a catch-all term (as is Mindanaoan) but somtimes its use seems suitable. The name Moro kris seems to make sense to me (there's also a Malay kris - aka keris sundang - and also possibly a variant which may be called Lumad kris.

Of course, the term Moro kris doesn't imply that all examples follow a single style and that there aren't any local/ethnic variations. The same would obviously be true when using the term Mindanaoan weapons since the (indigenous) ethnic groups on Mindanao are arguably even more diverse than those who are referred to as Moro!

BTW, when you use the term Mindanaoan kris you also seem to include Tausug kris, don't you? If yes, I'm not sure I understand such a usage...

Well, I think that older discussions on this forum prove that forumites interested in blades from that region do care about differences between, say, Tausug and Maranao (both the peoples and their cultures). That doesn't mean that there aren't any mistakes, etc. However, you'll find people that people will happily accept new information when it's convincingly presented.

Showing pics of blades and discuss interesting details will result in a more focused discussion than generalized theories IME.

Regards,
Kai

LOL! :D
I am beginning to think that perhaps you have a reading disability. Please re-read post #117 where i clearly state that i am certainly not an expert. :rolleyes: I have already describes part of what is required to consider a blade a kris....numerous times. But maybe you missed that somehow. Perhaps you were just unable to understand that as well, but you do seem to otherwise be a person of at least average intelligence. So instead of playing games with us why don't you tell us what your definition of a kris is?

David and Ms Baganing, I am not going to buy into this most scholarly of debates, however, I will make just one comment.

The photo that Ms Baganing has posted of a waved blade is most certainly not a keris by any of the definitions used by people---including anthropologists--- who are expert in this field.

However, it could well be referred to as a "kris" by some people in the community which Ms Baganing has surveyed.

Whether or not all people in this community would name it as a keris has not been established.

Whether or not such an implement has always been known in the surveyed community as a "kris" has not been established.

But Ms Barganing's informants could well refer to it as a kris.

My housekeeper in Solo, when shown a photo of a Bowie knife and told that it was an American style of knife for personal protection dubbed it a "keris amerika".

Different people in different places and at different times, can see things differently.

Let Ms Baganing's informants call this thing a kris. Let Ms Bagaing believe that it is one. I'm sure that like myself, as her research increases in volume she will come to be less and less certain that what she is currently so certain of, is really so.

Yes, I am a lumad and mindanaoan. I started researching mindanao weapons since I was in college, ten years ago, after getting hold of a moro province map that included 90 percent of mindanao. There were even lumad areas classified as moro then.

all krises in mindanao are mindanaoan krises for geographical reason, but not all mindanaoan krises are the same.

the only homogenous in the issue of mindanaoan kris is the way they define what a kris is-- their definition is beyond the physicality and materiality of the sword.

Even people of Borneo were called moros too in 1900's. Saying Moro Kris is not really appropriate, and it's not a definite term.

An interestingly good point, Alan. And this is true across the region that includes the Philippines, Indonesia, and Malaysia. This has been one of the sticking points of many debates on this forum in the past. And then the terms even change meaning as time progresses and language evolves. Parang in Bahasa Indonesian I think means in many cases a short sword where as in Tagalog it is a field. Yet they are etimologically related (what do you use to cut through a field?).

Sorry, you need to show me how ALL the links i posted have problematic historiography and why. Just saying this is meaningless and doesn't make it so. And no one here uses eBay to do their research. When i mentioned eBay before it was merely to point out that the longer punals that your friend in yellow is showing are a relatively new form that one can often find for sale on eBay. Please don't twist my words against me. Everyone knows my intention in even mentioning eBay, and it certainly wasn't to suggest that it was in any way a legitimate source for research.

Alan, i am certainly will to accept this possibility. :)

this is what you wrote on 107. I assume this is your definition of kris.

"Sorry, no gonjo, no asymmetric blade...that is not a kris in my book. What's more, it has a punal style guard on it. Now it is possible that that blade was cut down from what was once a kris, but i would not consider it a kris in it's present form."

are you sure early krises had gonjo, asymmetric blades, and other specifications according to your liking?

even the image of kris on a temple relief in java does not look like the kris you think should be.

there are even people in mindanao who call any sword with snaky blades as kris.

to most people, kris is kris because of its function and uses. It is not just a sword that you can classify according to its physical appearance.

Battara, those who have known me for a long time will attest to my dislike, or perhaps hatred, of the "name game".

The names of similar things can change from village to village, even within villages from community to community.

Over time similar items will have different names, and even be put to different uses.

The same thing used in a different way, or with a different nature, or an owner of different rank or position can have a different name.

People of different knowledge levels within the same community can refer to the same same thing by a different name.

People of one level within a community can refer to the same item, used or worn or owned by people of differing levels, by differing names.

What do you use to cut through a field?

What village are you in, when, what is the rank of the person cutting through the filed, and who is going to describe the action of cutting through the field?

Goodness gracious me!

Against my will I have been drawn into this.

Ms Baganing, I am most ignorant of the area of your speciality, but I am quite familiar with monumental works in Jawa, most especially those showing depictions of the keris.

To the best of my knowledge, every keris shown in Jawanese monumental works does indeed look like a keris.

Will you please advise me of the name of the temple in Jawa that has a depiction of a keris that does not look like a keris?

Further, just to demonstrate my purely objective approach to this matter of what is and is not a keris, may I remind all that there are some Javanese keris which do indeed not run true to the usually accepted classic definition of a keris.However, in all cases the naming is substantiated by inclusion in a royally authorised reference.

Hello Miya,

Do you think this was intentional, ignorance, or missing information?

Shit happens - so what?


Agreed.

All kris from Moro ethnic groups are Moro kris for ethnical reason, but not all Moro kris are the same. Agreed?

To me and my limited knowledge, a definition based on ethnic groups with a common cultural background (including religion) does make more sense than a geographical definition when the geographical region is known to be culturally more diverse than the Moro ethnic groups. I'm open to discuss this and change my mind though.


Are you sure all ethnic groups on Mindanao have the same definition what constitutes a kris? So, what's this definition?


Why? Coastal areas of northern Borneo were part of the Sulu sultanate for quite a long time and there are still Tausug being citizens of Sabah today.

Regards,
Kai

you can use the one found in prambanan temple. I can't even see any katik. definitely the blade is straight. I am not sure about the handle-- the stone is broken.

let's not go into the issue on sabah. People of sulawesi were also called moros.

in the philippines, borneo was not part of the moro province in 1900, yet the people there were called moros.

Asymetric, certainly. Did they all have gonjo? Not always a separate gonjo. Whether the very earliest of keris buda had a separate gonjo or just an indication of one is unclear to me.
But we are not really discussing these very early Jawa keris. We discussing kris that developed centuries later in the Philippines. I am sure that the earliest of these sword length kris did in fact have both a gonjo (almost always separate up until the early 20th century) and were in fact always asymmetrical. This is not according to my "liking". It is just the way it is.
I believe you when you say that there are people in Mindanao today who will call any snaky blade a kris. There are also people in the USA who will call any cream filled sponge cake a twinky.
You say a kris is a kris because of it's function. What is that function? How does it differ from the function of a barong or kamplian?

Please define "katik". It is not a term used to describe any part of the Malay keris. As for straight blades, the first keris were all straight blades. As a rule in Indonesia 2 out of 3 keris tend to be straight. The handle form does not determine whether it is a keris...the blade does. What does this prove or disprove? :shrug:

I know we talked about krises in Mindanao, but i showed you some reasons why krises in mindanao vary in designs, materials, symbolism, etc.

you have to take into account the geography, resources, community development, etc of each muslim group.

Samals for instance who are known as sea people incorporate cultural geography in their weaponry-- they use shells and pearls as ornaments on handles and sheaths.

The krises of the kalagans are primitive compared to the ones found in lanao, sulu, and maguindanao. Why is it the case?

kalagans were originally lumads before they became muslims. krises are recent in their culture, hence, the simplicity of their krises compared to the well-established and developed ones.

check federico's parts of the kris. katik is the perpendicular, irregular metal separating the handle form the blade.

every dialect has a word for it-- in english, it means barrier.

A kris is a kris. It is unique to the world of edged weapons because of the way it is designed. There are many other blades in the world, some curvy, some not. Someone, somewhere might recognize some of these blades (especially the wavy ones) as kris in our modern times. I do not.
Your post is pretty much a repetition of things you have already stated. You did not answer my questions, but that seems to be a part of you own unique style. ;)

Hello Miya,

By Spanish explorers/colonialists? Sure - as just about any darker-skinned or possibly just sun-tanned ethnic group of Muslim faith worldwide. Some other western colonial powers may also have picked up the term and used it.

That doesn't preclude that during later days the term may have been applied more selectively and finally also embraced by the very ethnic groups to which the name got first applied by ignorant foreigners.

That's like Christians embracing and using a name for themselves and their religion which originally got coined by enemies and used in a pejorative manner at best...


Well, not all peoples of the US Moro province were Moro either. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be any legitimate Moro outside any political entity called "Moroland" or whatever: There are Malay outside Malaysia, etc.

Regards,
Kai

So then this is the Tausug word for gonjo? :shrug: :)
I saw this diagram on Federico's site. You might remember that i directed you to it. But the line from the word "katik" actually stops on the blade itself, not the "barrier", so i was confused as to exactly what part he meant to attatch it to.

david, you should know how the traditional users of kerises or krises view their weapons. I just don't think that even that simple stuff, I have to elaborate.

mmmmm I already saw that before you even saw me here.

I used katik because i am talkign about mindanaon kris. some muslims in davao call it sangga or panangga-- meaning, barrier.

Sure Baganing, if you say so. Funny that you didn't mention having been to this site when i directed you there 2 pages ago, but i am sure that you have your reasons.
Also funny that when i asked what katik meant you didn't just say it was the Tausug word for gonjo...unless you actually didn't understand what i meant all this time using the word gonjo. But that is just too weird to consider really, isn't it. :)
Anyway, thanks for adding sangga and panangga to the vocabulary list as well.

you really think i have a shallow understanding of the subject I am interested in?

I have even been trying to find the etymology of gonjo for years now. do you know something about it?

it's not my style to use something i don't understand.

What i am saying is that if you knew that katik was basically the same as gonjo why not just say so. :shrug:
Gonjo is a Javanese word. You need to look there. Mr. Maisey could probably tell you more about it that i. :)

if you read one of my blog posts on kris, I used katik and I even described it.

Dear Baganing,
What's the title of the book that you'll be publishing? :)
Interesting ideas you have... (I've read all 5 pages). Good luck in you quest.
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic group? Would you like to share more details, please?

javanese words usually have malay or sanskrit/tamil/hindi etymology. I can't find the etymology of gonjo.

I don't even know if gonjo and katik are the same. if gonjo is a continuous part of the blade then it's not the same as katik.

Yep, i read them, but i must have missed it the first time through. I came across it on the second viewing after googling "katik" and being brought back to the article, but by then you had already answered the question. Of course you have left so many more of my direct questions to you unanswered. I am not sure why this is. If you don't have an answer for these questions you can just say so. :shrug:

The gonjo is generally a separate piece situated between the blade and hilt. A relatively few number of keris are "gonjo iras" where the gonjo and blade are one piece, often with a line marking where a separation would be. Most Moro (for lack a a better descriptor) kris made after 1930 also are all one piece continuous from the blade and there is just an inscribed line to mark where the separation should be. Please don't tell me this is not the case.

Su: The Edge of Water

For the DNA, I am lucky that i don't have to do it. A university back home is doing their human genome project on all ethnic groups. I'll just wait for their data. Turkey has already profiled the genetic make up of the turkish people.

I am primarily interested of the Tausugs because they were the first to be Islamized by the Arab missionaries in late 1300's.

Ah---Prambanan.

Yes, on the inside of the balcony wall of Candi Shiva there are a number of representations of keris-like weapons.

In Panel #4 there is depictation of Rama and Laksmana killing giants. The representation of a a keris-like weapon in this panel is in many respects similar to what we now know as a "Keris Buda", the carving of this dagger shows an asymetric base, a definite gonjo, and other features that we expect to find in a keris. It is a fore-runner of the modern keris.

Now, there are representations of other keris-like weapons at the Prambanan complex also. Some are very keris-like, others are less so, only the one I have mentioned is a clear representation of a form that can be positively identified as a fore-runner of the keris.If this one dagger were to be presented stripped of handle, it would be identified in modern times as a "Keris Buda".

If we consider the salient features found in a Keris Buda blade, all of those features can be found in the modern keris.

Ms Baganing, I have actually spent a very great amount of time at the Prambanan complex, mostly in study of these particular carvings. You appear to be speaking of some representation of a keris-like dagger that is other than the Rama & Laksmana one.

Please Ms Baganing, can you provide a reference to an image so that I may know exactly which representation you are using as your point of reference?

double post

I have a limited knowledge about malaysian and Indonesian keris.

I don't know if my memory serves me right. One relief is a row of monkeys-- one is holding a kris-like sword and the other, a tulwar.

the second image is a kris-like sword held by a bird-man maybe garuda

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.

Nowadays, the krises made anywhere in Mindanao follow the tausug design with sarimaok handle head and the knives mostly use the metal works of the maranaos.

wow! still going strong, but it seems like it's going in a different direction, lol.
just wanna mention that i haven't seen a sarimanok style puhan come out of jolo in a very long time.

Sorry Ms Baganing, you'll have to do better than reference to your memory. I need the image to which you refer. I cannot identify the relevant relief from your vague recollection.

I am aware of this. That is why i wrote "most" in my post. ;)
I will also go out on a limb here and state that most of these new kris are merely a shadow to the quality of old Moro swordsmithing.

Moderator's Comment
 

Let's keep this thread civil, please. Baganing, in particular, some of your posts have been obnoxious. If you want to continue posting here, I suggest you lighten up a bit.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.