Thank you very much Ahmed for adding these important and intriguing observations on these swords with information most helpful in better understanding them. It seems I had heard of the wootz blades becoming terribly brittle and literally shattering in some cases, but wasn't clear in recalling the circumstances. Also confusing to me was the reference to Arab swords 'from' India, and your explanation is most helpful.
As you noted in your previous post, what is important in our discussion is constructive material, comments and questions.

All best regards,
Jim

My pleasure, my duty, Jim. Actually, the study of medieval arms and armor; especially medieval Arab swords, was something that captured my interest for many years. That there are more than 100 Arab swords dating back to 600-1260 CE in Topkapi, Askeri Museum, and some private collections is something very intriguing for serious study. Add to that the many great sources in the form of treatises, historical narrations, poems, etc; all that makes the study of Arab swords in the aforementioned period enjoyable; since the data is available and exists in abundance.

As ever,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Welcome back Richard,

I very much believe that a hard edge would reveal a sufficient carbon content; along with suitable quenching. As for the damask, the patterns on the surface of this blade were rather small and uniform; reflecting early medieval damask; not Yemeni damask.

When you're free, please share your thoughts with me; regarding early medieval Arab blades and their chemical composition. Would also be interested to know that hardness measuring device; the Vickers....

Thanks a lot in advance, sir.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

This is very important, but have you ever heard of Yemeni swords found in the burial places of medieval pre-Islamic Yemeni people; especially their notables?

BTW, what are the oldest Yemeni swords in Oman? Referring to which century? Dr. David Nicolle mentioned in one of his books an Arab straight double-edged sword from Oman referring to the 6th-7th century CE. I believe the book's name was "Yarmouk 636 AD".

Please explain more...

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ahmed .. Sadly no I have not heard of any Yemeni pre Islamic Burials but early Omani Tombs are well recorded. There was a big migration from the Mahrib region in Yemen which lasted for several hundred years parallel to the downfall, disrepair and decline of the Mahrib Dam in roughly the 3rd to 6th C.

One report I read of a sword coming from an Islamic burial site on Jebel Akhdar (a purely one off discovery) made a couple of hundred years ago..

Readers will note that it was not the done thing here to bury arms and armour with the dead. The old Omani Battle Sword you may find interesting since its local name is Sayf Yamaani.

Interestingly there is a place near Nizwa called Yemen in part of Izki town ...an old quarter... and it was my thought that weapons could have either come on the trade route from Hadramaut or were made in the region near Nizwa since that was the seat of Ibaathi Islam from 751 AD til today. Nizwa has always been a metalworking area....Copper and iron since they knew the hand bellows system of raising the temperature of the furnace.


My thread refers at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=omani+swords

You will see Yarmouk may refer to the University at which he was a faculty member? Yarmouk Jordan at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nicolle

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thanks a lot for this. It seems that researchers must be as brave, bold, or even as audacious as the European researchers who dug out hundreds (if not many thousands) of European swords dating back to the Migration Period (400 - 750 CE) and the Viking Age (750 - 1066 CE); not to mention the Middle Ages (1066 - 1450 CE). Both al-Kindi and al-Biruni speak of Yemeni Quboori (i.e. tomb) swords being buried with their possessors in their graves. al-Kindi stated that these swords were anywhere from 1.75 to 2.75 lbs in weight, and their blade lengths were anywhere from 30 to 36 inches. Of course there are much more characteristics given in these two sources, and yes, these swords were pre-Islamic.

I would've really loved to hear any replies confirming excavation processes undergone by archaeologists that would've ended with the un-earthing of many of these priceless swords. Maybe such excavations may occur in the near future. Who knows???

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ahmed.. I hope something will turn up ! ... You know what its like when the archeologists want absolute proof which means actually digging up a body with a sword in his hand!! :) Any excavated swords that do appear I will try to source... Hadramaut I suspect holds many clues on the old Omani Battle Sword (Sayf Yamaani)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

PS..May I ask you to look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17934 as I need to check a translation on a sword.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I did what I could do in order to read and receive help in reading the inscriptions of Charles's sword. These are mentioned in the thread you linked me to.

BTW, have you ever heard about those excavations undergone in Syria some six years ago? I remember back in July 2008, Dr. David Alexander was telling me about excavations done in Syria that resulted in the unearthing of arms and armor dating back to the Crusades and the Mamluk period. He told me these included mail armor, swords, crossbows, etc. If my memory would not betray me, he said that many of these items would go to the Museum of Islamic Art in Doha, Qatar. Do you have any idea about these excavations and their findings??

Thanks a lot in advance, Sir!

Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ahmed ~ Interesting inscription on the CharlesS sword which seems to defy translation... I thought it was Farsi..?

Also interesting is the news of the big find in Syria ... friends brought back from Doha their magnificent catalogue but I think the items are not in that yet... I will check...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim!

Some said the inscriptions were Arabic, while one said it maybe Farsi. Here are the quotes:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17934

There are numbers inscribed too! Please check!

As for the catalogue of the objects in the Doha Museum, are you sure they have ALL the objects in this catalogue? I mean, what about the items in the storerooms and such? Dr. Alexander told me that these objects were to be transferred to the Doha Museum...so please confirm.

Thanks a lot in advance, Sir!

-Ahmed Helal Hussein-

Fighting Birds
 

The birds remind Me of Great Indian Bustards. Archer

Salaams Ahmed .. Yes you are probably right ... The catalogue is really just a series of designer photographs with not a lot of detail and was done at the opening of the museum I think... Any later work entering the museum would, as you say, be put into their research department and or placed for conservation etc... I am not able to visit as its a very long haul by car and by plane but I will see if any friends are going that way...

I had a look at the inscription and yes I noted the numbers but couldnt read those. I also think its Farsi ... my accountant reads it as I put earlier but that may be incorrect... can you decipher the numbers?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Regards archer, It may well be... I looked at birds of all the regions hoping to find a mythical bird matching the swords two .. no specific luck there... there are plenty to chose from.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Salaams Ibrahiim!

Thanks a lot for the info regarding the Doha Museum and the possibility of its storerooms containing arms and armor dating back to the Crusades and the Ayyubids and Mamluks.

Sorrowfully, I'm unable to decipher the numbers. WOW! These inscriptions are harder to define and read far more than those on Dhu'l-Faqar! So your accountant was unable to read the "Farsi" inscriptions? Then these inscriptions are not Farsi, I suggest.

Please forgive me, Ibrahiim, but I'm doing what I could possibly do regarding reading these inscriptions. Please forgive me for my limitations, buddy!

Yours faithfully,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ahmed, The latest information from friends who just returned from Doha is that the Museum had an exhibition of weapons from the era you mention...and just recently.
You are doing great on these inscriptions on blades...many thanks.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

First of all: Thanks for your magnanimity! Second thing: WOW! That's great news! So what Dr. Alexander had told me back in 2008 has been fulfilled! It must have taken the restoration and preservation teams quite an effort to get these excavated items back to shape in order to be fit for such an exhibition. Any more information in that regard shall be highly appreciated, buddy.

Thanks a lot!

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Here is some information about this exhibition:

http://thepeninsulaqatar.com/news/qa...rom-collection

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ibrahiim,

I've found a few Arab swords dating back to the 12th-15th centuries CE (according to the data provided by the Museum). Here's the link:

http://www.mia.org.qa/en/collections/search-collections

It seems that this museum really has some serious stuff!

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ahmed, Yes they have some top quality exhibits, however, I think what is shown in your link is the same as their big format catalogue which I have at home so I will check later...Perhaps they have a lot of work still being restored... in their vaults...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,

Thank you very much for this very important information. The more swords there are, the better!

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams all!

It seems that, in this site, there's little to no interest in the early medieval Arab swords. It's quite clear that the real interest is in more recent swords and other edged weapons that could be owned privately. I understand this well.

Nonetheless, if anyone is interested in information regarding swords or other weapons that date back to the early centuries of Islam, I'd be more than happy to send my help.

Best wishes to all!

-Ahmed Helal Hussein-

Salaams Ahmed.. Not so ! :) This is an ultra specialized subject Ahmed and we are lucky to have your input on this hugely important Iconic weapon... of equal importance to say the Sword Excalibur in Western parlance and utterly vital in Eastern terms being of such provenance.
As you know I am of the opinion that this is a classic and I feel certain it will be admitted to that hall of fame soon... I would ask you for some pictures so that they can also speak volumes for your thesis and so that members and others can see at a glance what is staring up at them ... This subject is not only of vital importance from the Islamic viewpoint but across the frontiers of sword research ... and such is its importance that the Topkapi will have to make a special room for it if they have not already done so!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

ITS NOT A LACK OF INTREST IN THESE SWORDS. ITS JUST THAT MOST OF US HAVE NO KNOWLEGE IN THE FIELD AND CAN ONLY FOLLOW IT SO FAR AND CONTRIBUTE LITTLE.
ALL POSTS COME TO A POINT WHERE EVERYTHING KNOWN HAS BEEN SAID AND THEY DRY UP. THE BEAUTY OF THE FORUM IS THE TOPIC IS PRESERVED AND CAN BE REFRENCED BY NEW PEOPLE AND WHEN NEW INFORMATION BECOMES AVAILABLE THE TOPIC CAN REOPEN AND NEW INFORMATION BE ADDED. WE ALL HATE TO SEE A TOPIC WE FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT CLOSE BUT ITS NOT THE END ITS JUST A PAUSE TO REGROUP AND FIND NEW IDEAS AND INFORMATION. :D

Salaams to Ibrahiim, Vandoo, and to all!

I did not mean "Dhu'l-Faqar" in particular. I meant ALL ARAB SWORDS dating back to the early centuries of Islam. As I've said in the introduction of my composition regarding "Dhu'l-Faqar", I have given almost equal care and study for ALL the Arab swords that refer to the period 600 to 1258 CE.

Ibrahiim, thanks a lot for your very kind and encouraging words. But you have to understand that I'm relatively new to this forum, and I would feel as an intruder if I kept on making new threads. I would've wished that you, Iain, or any member here with very good knowledge on Arab swords to start new threads regarding that. This is why I've decided to wait for that, but unfortunately, nothing popped out till now; except for your great composition(s) regarding the Omani Battle Sword; although there aren't examples that date to the above-mentioned date (600- 1258 CE).

Had it never occurred that someone would come out with a new thread like: "Comparison between European and Islamic swords during the Crusades" or "The swords and armour of the warriors of the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates" or anything of that sort?

I would very much like to hear your opinions...all of you. I would be glad if you came up with new ideas. Frankly, I believe that most -if not all- of you have new ideas regarding these topics.

That said, I find myself completely at the disposal of this great forum, and all its great members.

Best regards to all,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ahmed, Yes I know how frustrating it may seem... but the only person I know of... on this forum who can tackle the great subjects ("Comparison between European and Islamic swords during the Crusades" or "The swords and armour of the warriors of the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphates" or anything of that sort?) is you!

With such a highly specialised subject as the "Dhu'l-Faqar" you see how easy it is for an entire and brilliant thesis to be put down in a few words echoing the so called masters you have already met.. and who equally dont believe a word of it !! :)

Do not be put off by them. Your thesis is well placed on our Forum. Hopefully it will achieve recognition.

I am in agreement with Vandoo and urge you to keep at this one... and add some pictorial shots to enhance the cosmetics of your thesis... I look forward to the day when it enters The Classics and urge again Moderators to react favourably in this regard.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hello,
I am very interested in early swords of all locations. However the information I wish to know has not been gathered. The "nuts and bolts" of swords is the steel...and we have scant few analysis of the steels in these blades...and I fear we never will.

Ric

Hi Ahmed,
I would like to note that for a newcomer to this forum, you have already established a considerable footprint, and your superb dissertation is compellingly presented and fascinating. As you have well noted, in many cases this very topic and subject matter has been inadequately approached and not properly pursued in certain degree and aspects.

With research in virtually any field, it always remains a work in progress, and as Vandoo has wisely noted, it is not a lack of interest which results in decrease in dynamics of thread topics, but that discussion of material at hand has run its course. The wonderful thing here, again as well noted, is that threads sometimes dormant for years, are ever revisited by persons searching the internet or new researches begun on the same topic. As seen recently, and often over time, these threads are recharged by either new evidence or revitalizing new questions or approaches.

In my own research I often use the internet to augment the resources in my own library and notes, and inevitably threads and posts here appear, much to my delight! It is great to see the work all of us here have done as a team to advance the knowledge and understanding of these topics.

In your previous post you noted you feel too new here to place new threads as you sense you would be intruding. Nothing could be farther from the truth! Actually you clearly have already thought of wonderfully placed thesis' in your suggestions, and it seems that you would be the best person to place such topics.
If I may, I would suggest however that the approaches be more specific and partitioned. One of the biggest problems in discourse on forums is that key topics which come up later in threads are often lost in the volume of the thread itself mostly due to the title heading.
For example, this thread is addressed of course to Dhu'l-faqar, not to the broader scope you mention, therefore many readers and contributors may not realize the subcategories exist within.

I would suggest that new threads addressing the topics suggested be initiated outside the perameters of this one. Again, queries which are placed too broadly instantly outscope themselves, such as 'what kind of swords did the Byzantines use?'. It is bewildering to try to fathom just what people of this huge empire; what period; what regions etc are being considered.
Naturally this analogy is simply a suggestive illustration and of course not directed toward you or anyone in particular and meant as an example.

One last thing I would note here. These forums are visited by a vast scope of individuals from advanced academics such as yourself, to collectors whether new or remarkably experienced; the curious; historians; dealers; writers; journalists etc etc. This will result in quite varied approaches and manner in postings with often vastly different perspectives.
With this kind of diversity, it is always rather amazing that we are able to accomplish the wonderful discussions we have here, and as seen, have had for years. We are fortunate to have you with us! and thank you again for your outstanding contributions here.

All very best regards,
Jim

Ric
I just noticed your post, and of course it is well established that your field is metallurgy , which has always been far beyond my own understanding. With your expertise in this topic, you would be the exact person to address this aspect of swords, and in threads focused on specific instances. There have been many studies made scientifically on blades (several early Islamic blades if I recall were actually sacrificed to this end), and the work of Dr. Ann Fuerbach has been phenomenal. Others such as Panseri, Figiel and numerous other works have well touched on many aspects, but as we have noted, there is far more to be done.

As noted in my post to Ahmed, these thesis' and titles are on topics which need to be addressed, and these are discussion forums which are the exact venue where this can be done.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Ibrahiim!

Thank you very much for your kind and encouraging words. I felt very flattered, buddy! I agree with you regarding enhancing the cosmetics of my thesis with more pictorial shots, and I intend to start new threads regarding other Arab swords of the early centuries of Islam.

Perhaps you should give your opinion about your favorite type of sword in this thread here (please!):

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18180

See that broad-bladed straight double-edged sword; posted by Jasper?! Man! I'm very weak in front of these types of swords! You know what I mean, don't you?!

Once again, I'm very thankful for your very encouraging reply, Ibrahiim.

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Jim!

Thank you very much for your generous and morale-raising reply, Sir! Believe it or not: I was intending to mention you by name in my last posting; and in fact I did, but I erased the request for you to answer my posting out of fear of appearing to be arrogant; yet your generosity and concern have made me at a loss of words, Sir. I'm very grateful to your reply.

Sir, I promise to follow what you advised me to do; in your generous and encouraging reply. Once again, I must admit that I feel that I've come to the right place by becoming a member in this great site with its fabulous forums. I've already gained a lot of information from reading and following many threads, and I'm extremely happy because of that.

Once again, I find myself completely at your disposal, Sir.

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

Salaams Ric!

Thank you very much for your reply. I really understand how you feel, but I also feel handicapped to fulfill your desire for analyzing these swords; or even reading about earlier analysis of such valuable sword-blades. I'm sorry, but you know that this is almost impossible to happen.

One question, Sir: Have you ever analyzed a blade of a European medieval sword before? If yes, what did it take to do it? I mean: Did you completely destroy the sword-blade for analysis, or took a small piece of the blade, or what? Please explain, Sir.

Waiting anxiously for your reply, Ric!

As ever,
Ahmed Helal Hussein

There are hundreds of metallurgical analysis of medieval and earlier European blades and dozens of chemical analysis...many published in various articles in "Gladius".
In general a small slice is taken from the blade (a triangle cut from edge to center not all the way across) and this is cold mounted in resin and polished then etched and photographed under the microscope. Pieces can also be spectrographed for chemistry. Neither is all that hard to do well, but there is a procedure.
Such can be done from poor examples of good provenance...many museums have such pieces which are not good enough to display and some even just sit and rust away on a shelf as conservation funds are low.

Once enough body of information is amassed one can make assumptions as to what is of a certain time and place. It makes fakes that much more difficult to pass as originals.

I suggest the work of Drs. Alan Williams and David Edge of The Wallace. As well as Drs. Janet Lang, Paul Craddock and Barry Ager of the British Museum. The Royal Armouries did some good work till they sacked the dept.
These are only a few British researchers..there have counterparts all over Europe.

Ric

Salaams Ric!

Thank you very much for your clarification. I have Ewart Oakeshott's "Archaeology of Weapons" and it includes analyses of some pattern-welded blades; as well as homogenous non-crucible steel sword-blades. I remember the average percentage of carbon in the pattern-welded blades was anywhere from 0.4 to 0.6%, while the carbon content in the Ulfber(h)t sword-blades was around 0.75% on average. Hank Reinhardt once wrote that the carbon content in European medieval swords could have reached as high as 1.2%, but he said the average percentage of carbon was around 0.8%.

Regarding the early Arab sword-blades, these were usually forged from Indian crucible steel. I do not know if any of the swords in Topkapi or the Askeri Museum in Istanbul were analyzed. But for Indian crucible steel, the average carbon content in the sword-blades was around 1.4 - 1.8%. I know that the appearance of the damask wave patterns also depends upon certain trace elements, like Vanadium and Molybdenum...and even Manganese may play a role. There are other proofs for the high-carbon content in these Arab sword-blades, like what the sources said that they became brittle during very cold temperatures. Also, the procedures mentioned in the early Islamic sources in order to know a good blade from a bad one, are very important to me.

Perhaps there are private collectors who maybe willing to donate one or more of their Arab sword-blades for analyses.

BTW, the Arab sword attributed to the Holy Prophet (PBUH); that is now preserved in al-Hussein Mosque in Cairo, Egypt has been chemically analyzed in the laboratories of the Cairo University. That was in the mid-1970s. The results have proven that it was forged from Indian crucible steel, with pearlite and cementite particles; if I could remember. The results were published in the Journal of the Faculty of Archaeology-Cairo University in January 17th 1976.

Thank you for giving me the names of the references that include the results of the analyses done to many medieval European sword-blades.

Best regards,
Ahmed Helal Hussein