Wow. We'll see more examples of Khyberian knives with such primitive "acid etching"? I look forward to it! I think the rest of them too.

While we have finally agreed that there may be some tangible message or words in the script etched onto this blade, in yet an undetermined dialect or language, it seems there is yet another factor which may be considered toward the Khyber itself.

We have agreed this Khyber is indeed of mid to third quarter 19th.c (at least I think we have) and in my opinion, these seem to have produced exclusively in Afghan regions in and around the Khyber Pass itself. It seems exclusive to the indigenous tribes of the Khyber, and as far as I have known, is not well known in the broader parts of Afghanistan or neighboring countries.

As once well expressed by Torben Flindt, ethnographic weapons have no geographic boundaries, of course an obvious axiom which sometimes seems overlooked in stringent weapon form classifications.

So I think we can agree that this Khyber was not made in Persia, or any other location beyond the sphere of the Khyber regions and its tribes.

With regard to 'if's', in my perception these are the ideas and observations that form postulations which may well become factual holdings. Just as Ed has suggested, and has recognized as perhaps 'fanciful', his idea for the possible present character of the 'old Khyber', is well ratiocinated and has compelling potential.

These Central Asian regions are some of the most traveled, invaded, and vibrantly changing in ethnic diversity in the world. The 'Great Game' is but a modern term for the dynamics that have existed there for millenia. It would be naïve to think that a weapon, even as distinctly geographically oriented as the Khyber, could not be transported into any if not many of these regions occasionally.

What is unusual, if not distinctly anomalous with this one, is not the sword itself, but the character of the motif and its acid etching application. I would join in being extremely interested in knowing of any other examples bearing this type of decoration on Khyber knives. This process is as far as I have known, as Dima has well noted, not known in the regions where Khybers are indigenous, nor for that matter contiguous areas.

While a break has been suggested, personally I find this discussion, and particularly the excellent discourse, fascinating, so I hope we can continue while hopefully finding more evidential material.

Jim,
I am waiting for a word from two Iranian colleagues re. inscription.
Then I shall be able to answer your questions.

Fair enough?

Jim,
Forgot to mention:
The so-called “ Khybers” were not limited to the Khyber Pass area. The best evidence is the variability of their handles: beak-y in the majority of cases, Karabela-like in the rest. They penetrated both East ( India) and West ( Iran), yet another suggestion of their widespread presence

They acquired the moniker you are talking about from the Brits who fought Afghanis there. And locals never called them “Khyber knives”, for them it was “ selava”.

Thanks very much Ariel, I knew of course the odd moniker came from the Hobsen-Jobsen of the British forces in the Khyber regions (apparently these were known locally as salwar or selava?(sic). But I had no idea of these huge knives (swords) in India or Iran.
I knew of course the 'smaller' versions in the spectrum of pesh kabz reached into those spheres, but not the huge Khyber swords.

Any chance of seeing an example of a Khyber knife (large blade) from India or Iran? Naturally I am referring to these large 'triangular' (for lack of better geometric description) blades, almost like a butcher knife.

The beautiful one on the front cover of the “ Afghani edged weapons” book is Indian. Fiegels’ sale catalogue has a couple of Persian. I have one with deep old Indian chiseling ( thanks, Jens) and another potentially Indian with elephant ivory handle and sophisticated wootz blade.
But we are talking about Afghanistan proper , and most khybers in use there will be of local manufacture.
It’s like seeing more Fords than Fiats and Alfa Romeos in America. But move to Italy, and the proportions will flip. And, of course, their occurrence in neighboring countries is likely to be largely limited to ethic Afghans, such as Khyber Pakhtunhwa in contemporary Pakistan, formerly part of India.

Crossed posts! I did not realize the one on the book cover was Indian (?). Would that be in that Afghanistan in the 19th c. was considered part of India?
I do not have Fiegel handy, but again did not realize there were Persian Khyber's in it. It does seem quite understandable that ethnic persons of Khyber tribes in other geographic locales might take their Khyber's along.

I'd like to clarify a little bit the words of the Ariel. Indeed, there are many Khyber knives made in India or by Indian craftsmen in Afghanistan. Such Khyber knives can be seen in large quantities in museums in India. But! Khyber knives, which we could call "Persian" (made in Persia or by Persian masters in Afghanistan) are known very little...

Dima thank you for this information and clarification! I truly did not know of these Khyber swords being made in India, but I can understand that there must have been Indian craftsmen in Afghan regions who might make them.
As you well note, the idea of these often very large bladed Khyber swords being made in Persia seems very unlikely, just as the idea of Persian craftsmen in Afghanistan seems remote.

It seems well established of course that artisans of regions often move to other areas, and in doing so take their skills and styling character with them of course. It makes sense that obviously these styles, techniques and character would in degree become melded together in the examples they produced.

I think the objective of recognizing the possibility of this particular Khyber being one of these hybrids, or accounting for its unusual decoration is well at hand here. As far as I can see however, is that this example in the original post is of the commonly seen versions produced in the typical manner in Khyber regions, rather than one produced in these other areas noted.

We return to the very crudely applied acid etched decoration. We know that this technique was used in Persia, and by its craftsmen. It is possible that this technique, which became it seems more widely practiced in latter part of 19th c. (thinking of the Sudanese thuluth case) may have been carried into many regions by craftsmen relocating.

I think its crudely applied character of the decoration here, which has been the primary point of contention, pretty much renders the possibility of being done by a skilled craftsman unlikely, particularly Persian. The likelihood of the scenario proposed by Ed, a copied theme added by a tribal artisan representing local traditions or events is far more plausible.

Update:
One of the " translators" sent me a message: this is written in ancient variant of Farsi, but the quality of deep etching is very poor, the letters flow into each other.
She could translate only a small fragment:" ...the king gave advice to his son..."
She is taking it to her parents ; perhaps, they might be more successful, but I doubt more and more that translation may give us any specific information: Persians were fond of general statements of literary origin inscribed on their blades. I have a Khyber with rhino handle and 4 rivets (2-1-1); the upper 2 used to be "big" , but the washers were lost. It is inscribed in old Persian with a quote from Sa'adi's " Golestan ( 13 century). Central Asia ( Bukhara, Khiva, Samarkand)? Northern Afghanistan? Iran proper?

So, one thing is clear: the etching was made by a Farsi-speaking person. Whether he was an itinerant master from Iran or a Persianized Afghani is unclear. In any case, it may explain the human figure and ,- perhaps,- the date of 1850 in Persian calendar Jalali.

I beg to differ! Nothing is clear. The one who made the etching could have been simply copying it 1:1 from somewhere else.
:cool:

I think this is a strong case, again, for this weapon bearing a commemorative inscription. While the original text or example of the wording being copied was possibly (or more likely) to have been applied by someone not necessarily fluent or even familiar with the Farsi language, it does suggest the intent.
The individual applying the wording to the host weapon, by the crude character of the motif, certainly was not a master craftsman of Persia or anywhere for that matter. However, it seems a sincere attempt to portray a traditional or highly held wording of Farsi, as noted.

Inscriptions in these languages and phrases surely have been used on other Khyber's of course, but the use of acid etching is unusual as we have discussed.

Rephrasing my conclusion: the use of Farsi defines the etcher and/ or the owner as belonging to Persianized Afghani tribe.

Marius: is that better?

OK, final summary.
1. We have already established that the sword in question is an Afghani khyber.
2. It has a deep etching in Farsi, and the dating in Jalali puts it somewhere in the third quarter of 19th century.
The remaining questions were:
a). Meaning of the inscription
b). Uncertainty whether Persian technique of deep etching was used on Afghani swords.

Recent info:
Parents of my other informer ( both former professors of Persian literature and linguistics respectively) were able to read only part of the inscription due to imperfections of the etching technique. It is in ancient Farsi.
Not unexpectedly, just like in my other khyber ( inscription was done using gold wire unlay and easily readable), this is just an unrelated verse.



On the khyber in question is a quote from Sa'adi's Golestan.
"A king placed his son in a school,
Putting in his lap a silver tablet
Wrote on it in golden letters:
The hard work of a teacher is better than the love of a father."

As expected, nothing about the sword itself, just some morality verse.

As to the technique, I am attaching pics of an Afghani pseudo-shashka with deep etching on both sides along the entire length of the blade. Did not even ask to translate it: everybody is free to choose his favourite Sa'adi's verse:-)
But the bottom line, deep etching can be found on other examples of typical Afghani weapons. They might be infrequent, but they do exist.

So, my conclusion: Afghani Khyber mid-late 19th century, with deep-etching decoration in Farsi, quoting almost sacred Farsi poetry, intended for a Persianized Afghani.

In the early 20th century, acid etching can see on Afghan blades made for the army. But! This acid etching is very different from what we see on the discussed Khyber knife. So a this shashka with acid etching made for the army is not a correct example.

Well, to re-summarize;
First, the French word "ancien (old) is incorrectly translated as " ancient". After which the seller is accused in not mentioning that the etching was done at the end of 20th century, with no objective evidence to prove the accusation. Upon realization that this interpretation was wrong, this issue slithered away.

Second, there are repeat assertions that deep etching was not used by Afghani masters. Having been presented with an unquestionable example, the tune is changed and now etching WAS actually done at the beginning of 20th century, and the presented example does not count.

That is exactly what I was talking about: Everybody is entitled to his opinions but not to his facts.
And some knowledge of foreign languages doesn't hurt either:-)

I see a lot of opinions on this topic))) Starting with the fact that the Khyber knife that we are discussing is "oldest dated Khyber"))) Now, as I understand it, views have changed a bit. And according to the new version, this Khyber knife "is made in the mid-late 19th century"))) Maybe this is so. Or maybe it was made in the early 20th century. Or maybe it was decorated with acid etching 10 years ago) All this is only our thoughts :)

The original stated “ the oldest dated khyber that I know”: 1813 H or 1850 J , not too shabby....
Folks, can you show me a khyber reliably dated prior to those dates using the same calendar?

I'm not home right now, so I'm posting photos from Arzi's website. I bought this Khyber knife many years ago. It dates back to 1805.
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2788
By the way, this Khyber knife is published in my book.