Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Planning to make a wrongko (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22568)

Rick 14th May 2017 05:50 AM

If I might chime in, I wouldn't recommend urethane either, not mineral nor water based.

I'd still recommend shellac thinned out with grain alcohol and applied lightly and the surface made smooth between coats. Shellac, being made from insects somehow just seems to look much nicer than a spar varnish or urethane.

I think using shellac gives a better looking finish, especially with a little wax to top it off.

A. G. Maisey 14th May 2017 09:56 AM

I agree with you Rick.

French polish is only the application of a number of coats of shellac, the right way is to do it is with a rubber all the way, but it can be short cut by using a brush first and then finishing with a rubber.

However, for somebody who has never used shellac before, either brushed or used as french polish, it is not really all that easy to get a decent job. That's where Danish oil comes in:- its quick, its easy, with minimum care it gives a very good job, and used the way I've explained, the final appearance is just like a well preserved old wrongko.

No dispute at all that shellac is the best finish, but for a beginner it is not the easiest finish, not by a long shot.

Danish Oil and Scandinavian Oil are similar, and depending on the brand you can get different mixes in the ingredients. Some of these oils have a urethane component, some don't. I actually dislike urethanes, even for floors, on a floor I prefer tung oil, but it is virtually impossible today to get genuine tung oil, the stuff they sell as tung oil has urethanes in it, its just that it behaves like tung oil and looks like tung oil when it dries. Straight urethane I would never use for anything, but where these wood finishing products are concerned, although they might have urethane in them, they behave like a very quick drying oil, and the finish is nothing at all like any urethane that I've ever seen.

Another oil I used to use a lot was Birchwood Casey Stock Oil, it gave a really beautiful finish that looked for all the world like a top London gun finish. It dropped off the market here is Oz for a few years, and I never used it again after it became available again, mostly because I'd pretty much stopped doing high class rifle stocks by the time it appeared again. The couple of expensive stocks I did after that I did with linseed.

David 14th May 2017 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Another oil I used to use a lot was Birchwood Casey Stock Oil, it gave a really beautiful finish that looked for all the world like a top London gun finish. It dropped off the market here is Oz for a few years, and I never used it again after it became available again, mostly because I'd pretty much stopped doing high class rifle stocks by the time it appeared again. The couple of expensive stocks I did after that I did with linseed.

I can second the Birchwood Casey Stock Oil. I've used it with great success. Frankly i haven't tried to look for it here in the States for a while so i don't know if it is still available.

David 14th May 2017 04:42 PM

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I just checked and it does still seem to be easily available in numerous location. :)

Rick 14th May 2017 06:27 PM

Well, I will add a caveat about Danish oil; all the woodwork in my house is finished with the stuff and I do like it and can't disagree with Alan about ease of finish.
But..
This is very important: after you have used this product please dispose of any rags soaked in it in a bucket of water, for they may well combust if cautions are not taken.

A. G. Maisey 14th May 2017 11:40 PM

Yeah, you're dead right on the rags Rick. They have warnings all over the tins of the stuff that I use. But that's only a pretty recent thing. I've used all sorts of wood finishing products since I was in my early teens, my father used the stuff before me --- it was his job --- he never mentioned that there was a danger from those used rags, and I never knew about the inherent danger until quite recently.

David yeah, that's the stuff , easy to use, great finish. Its not a problem to get here now, when I said it dropped out of sight for a while I was talking ancient history, I think it maybe about 40 years ago that I was not able to get it. Prior to that I was buying it from a gunsmith, I think he was probably importing it himself, anyway, he died and I couldn't find another source. But these days you can buy the stuff anywhere --- well, any gunshop.

Johan van Zyl 15th May 2017 10:03 AM

I've done a lot of reading up on products that are available here in my neck of the woods, that conform closest to the excellent suggestions you all have been making with regard to my nearly completed Bugis wrongko project. Come Wednesday I will be browsing the hardware shops in my area to get something suitable to do the job. There's a product called Rustins Danish Oil in South Africa, and also a Woodoc product called Antique Wax. One of the specs is that it does not affect glue or joints. It also "builds up an authentic patina on the wood surface". I'll see what I can get.

I've been doing some thinking as a result of this project of mine, and I am getting ideas and notions and insights that could only have come because of my daily involvement with it. I have been truly engrossed in the task and as a consequence more things are making sense to me.

For instance, having succeeded in making a passable fit of Bugis blade to wrongko, I have gone back to my Java keris with its gambar, and I now find that it is inconceivable that that keris was made for that gambar. The fit is not as good as mine (in fact it's quite bad), which must of necessity mean they could not have been made for one another by and old-time m'ranggi. I do believe the poor fit is a dead give-away.

A further conclusion is that the Java ladrang gambar and its current gandar and pendok do not belong to one another. Recall that I wrote in a much earlier thread that I received the two kerisses with their hilts properly in place, but accompanied by a separated gambar and two gandars, one covered with a brass pendok. It was pure luck that I correctly assigned the ladrang gambar to the Java keris and attached the pendok-covered gandar to it, but in reality the difference in quality of the gambar and pendok is too great for them to be a match. (Of course in our thread discussions you all have gently indicated as much, but it comes through strongly to me now.)

I am reassured in that you all have pointed out that mismatches are common and it need not distract from the Java keris and its current dress that I own.

Johan van Zyl 17th May 2017 03:49 PM

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Having purchased the special antique wax by Woodoc, conforming closest to your kind advice given so kindly by you all, I have applied two coats and have given the scabbard a good rubbing. Here are some final pics, but I am not satisfied by the quality of the pics, whilst I so wish you could see the deep gloss & highlights that appear on the wood. This does not mean that I am totally chuffed with the choice of wood for the gambar, but there it is now. :o :D Please consider that the scabbard looks better than on the pics!
My wife is waiting in the corridor with a list of work I need to do for her, now that the workshop is available once more - worse luck!

A. G. Maisey 17th May 2017 11:13 PM

It looks pretty OK Johan, not a real bad job at all. Room for improvement, certainly, but for a first attempt from a base of nothing, it comes close to brilliant.

HOWEVER

Wax is used to enhance and protect an already finished surface, it is most definitely not suitable as a finish applied to bare, unsealed, unfinished wood.

If you wish to correctly finish your wrongko you must now remove the wax, resand and whisker, then use Danish Oil or similar, or shellac as Rick has advised.

Wax by itself is NOT a finish.

The manufacturers of the wax you have used say as much, and I would be surprised if this is not also shown on your tin of wax:-

https://www.woodoc.com/en/products/woodoc-antique-wax

Johan van Zyl 18th May 2017 10:23 AM

After reading your post, Alan, I laughed at myself awhile. I admitted to myself for the umpteenth time that - verily - there does not exist a substitute for experience. Oh well, at least I did not do irreversible damage to the scabbard. When my dear wife's jobs are done, I can go the shellac way. (Searching for a Danish oil product was totally fruitless.)

This has been a wonderful experience for me, making the scabbard, and during all this time on this thread I have been the recipient of all your kindness, helpfulness and knowledgeable hints & advice. I thank you!

To end off the thread with a few philosophical words from me, I can say this home-made scabbard, however aesthetically imperfect as you all agree, does add character to my Bugis Riau keris. You will agree that if a person who truly knows kerisses looks at it for the first time, he is sure to remark that this scabbard, although a recent non-Indonesian replacement, was made specifically for this keris. I have a feeling that not very many antique kerisses in collections still have scabbards that they can call their very own.

:D

A. G. Maisey 18th May 2017 01:48 PM

Johan, to remove the wax, try mineral turpentine + a small stiff brush + steel wool. There are special wax removing fluids, but I doubt that you will be able to get any.


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