I understand that precise botanical studies of flora were passed on or sought by the Mughal painters so that greater accuracy could be attained ...There are many examples of inaccuracies in design and colour and it was only when companies such as EIC became involved that true scientific drawings could be referred to...as outlined at #63 above viz;

Quote."What seems odd is that the zenith of floral paintings seems to be at the time Dara Shiko was inspired to have artists view flowers especially vases filled with blosoms...and more weirdly influenced by European (EIC) styles which were copied in an attempt to show more realism in Moghul art.

The prime reasoning behind accepting into Moghul Art the European exactness of botanical studies in floral form was that it enabled greater accuracy in colours and in lifelike portrayals of subject matter". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I will add that ~In respect of the above post ~For the original document by JP Losty see http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/...spiration.html

Ibrahiim, the thing about floral decoration is not only about the floral decoration about the time of Dara Shiko (1615-1659). THe floral decoration was used centuries before and after.
Some years ago I had a PM discussion with a member on this forum. The thing was, that he was a botanic, and he did not recognise the different flowers, but being a scientist, he would, of course, want more prof than shown on most weapons, and I respect him for this.
More artistic writers/scholars are freer in their judgement which flowers are shown on the weapons, but they also warn that the number of petals should not always be taken too serious.
So this leaves the rest of us guessing, but it is sure that the poppy flower was very popular, and so was the sun flower in the south.

I think Hindu Arms and Ritual by Robert Elgood chapter 13 explains a lot of what we are discussing.

Chapter 13 of "Hindu Arms and Armour" (Robert Elgood, 2004) does attend to certain aspects of the flower, and notably botanical symbolism in various instances in Indian tradition and culture. Here he makes a compelling comment which specifies 'plants', however in the context of the narrative notes, " ...it follows that a plant depicted on a weapon is likely to represent more than its decorative value". This would seem to imply that a flower would be afforded the same circumstance.

The convention of flowers as a leitmotif for opposing armies and signifying various situations toward battle, victory and other symbolic use seems to have deep history beyond India alone. Elgood does note that the Tamils in antiquity did use flowers as dynastic symbols (p.130) but these were later replaced.
As the book concerns Hindu tradition and culture of course he tends to many aspects of the very botanical nature of their symbolism in material culture and in ritual. One flower in particular that seems to be broadly depicted and used in Hindu culture is the lotus (the red flower of the goddess Kali ). The 'generative' aspect of the bud of the lotus is often depicted as well, such as on the pommel of many tulwars.

Turning to the depiction of flowers on the weapons, I looked into Pant (1980) who has the chapter on 'decoration'. The entire text is focused on technique in application, metalwork, enameling, jewels and styling, but like other references to the sumptuous Mughal hilts....the only specification is the type of jewels used....a flower is simply described....'flower'.

Other references describing the decoration and motif on hilts are much the same, and even in Elgood concerning the red flower symbol of Kali (op. cit. p.131) what is described is the 'red lotus stone' of the goddess..a ruby.

In reading through most of the descriptions of the Mughal emperors, there seems to have been a considerable degree of tolerance, if not even fascination with, aspects of other religions and cultures. The properties and symbolisms associated were in varying degrees filtered into Mughal arts.

It does seem however, most of the discussion of these situations, the attention is toward the material culture of artwork and various objects, with very little direction toward application on weapons. In the literature on arms, it is as if the author observing the examples considers that the characteristically nuanced or subtle depictions of flowers or plants are not relevant to the character or theme of the weapon.

Robert Elgood and Stephen Markel have offered us the most insight and best foothold into this esoteric topic, but it will take remarkable tenacity and serious study to advance. This has been the reason for this thread and others related, and hopefully others reading who have background in the study of Indian art and culture might join with their thoughts and observations.
Meanwhile other collectors may bring in examples for examination and discussion, just as Jens has always done with his amazing collection items.

Salaams Jens Nordlunde, I pause deliberately on the scope of time spanned by the Dareo Shikoh period since it offers the study of a certain spike in floral artwork and has an intriguing air to it surrounded by treachery and subterfuge so typical in the Machiavellian discourse inside the Mughal ruling family which would eventually end in disaster for the young prince who came very close to fusing together two great religions through his ideas on floral artwork/talsimanic expression etc.

In terms of the style we recognise as floral Indian work it is clear that the fashion ebbed and flowed across the period and according to various documents viz;

Quote''The floral and plant motifs predominate in the decorative repertoire of Mughal India. The combination of the naturalistic yet subtly stylized treatment of Mughal flowers, together with their balanced and symmetrical arrangement, is emblematic of Mughal taste in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, when the floral motif became a leitmotiv that permeated all the arts of the court (textiles and decorative arts, arts of the book) and even architecture. This fascination with the floral motif can be traced back to the reign of the Emperor Jahangir. It originated during a journey made by Jahangir in 1620 to Kashmir, a country where the emperor was enchanted by the variety and profusion of the flowers which grew there, and which he was subsequently wont to describe as “a garden where spring reigns eternally”. During this trip the monarch was accompanied by one of the great masters of the imperial atelier of painting, the animal painter Ustâd Mansûr Nâdir al’Asr, who, at the request of the sovereign, executed more than a hundred flower studies, of which only three precious examples still survive.

This poetic delight in the exuberant blossoming flowers of Kashmir was reinforced by the discovery of European herbals brought to the Mughal court by Jesuit missionaries and agents of the East India Company''.Unquote.

For interest I added the final paragraph above to encompass botanical detail fed into the arena by The EIC...

It would therefor seem that although Indian work may have contained a broad spectrum of floral content down the ages that in fact these floral peaks and troughs included concentrated periods where the fashion was exaggerated no more so perhaps than in the Daro Shikoh time frame. I point to the 1630s as a key time frame when such influence blossomed viz;

Quote"Hindu decorative style would be influenced by floral art for centuries and become apparent in architecture, weaponry and virtually all forms of artistic work in the entire universal Hindu pallet of arts...In fact this was not always the case..Jahangir’s passion for natural history was not inherited by his son Shah Jahan and grandson Dara Shikoh. It was during the 1630s that flowers and floral arrangements with their decorative possibilities came to dominate Mughal textiles and the adornment of architecture and album pages. See http://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/mughal-india/ '' Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim, what we have discussed so far are the decorations inlaid or in koftgari, but there are others - the steel cut ones, and they go back far longer.
At the same time I am not so sure, that the disc decoration and the hilt decoration are connected, they could be, but I have my doubt, as to me the disc decoration seems not to change in the same way as the hilt decoration does - after fashion.

I have done a comparison on this thread looking at both hilt and disc pommels and find that most are of the same decorative form whereas a few are not of the same style. I conclude therefor that the two areas of decoration must be linked with a few exceptions.. Page 1 of this thread has many that are clearly linked. The pommel however does lend itself to a cyclic style simply because it is round thus sunburst form is common. I wondered if the general form of the pommel was related to the name Tulvar meaning flower and suggest that it looks similar to a poppy.

somewhat more mundane mughal style bronze grip on one of my swords with cast in floral decor.

Mundane?? Very nice entry Wayne!
This looks very much Mysori, with the tiger head.

Some pictures:

Thank you for the pictures.
I think the research should include other decorated things, than weapons only, as many of these things have been studied and researched far more than the weapons have.
I do realise that many collectors collect weapons, buy weapon books and study then, and that is that. For the ones who wants to go farther, studying other art items can be of a very big help.

"...they convincingly explained that rather than being mere accessories, weapons are in fact themselves artistic creations that reflect larger stylistic tendencies of a period".
Bruno Thomas & Ortwin Gamber
"Jahrbuch des Kunsthistorischen"
Museums in Wien 1937-1955
As cited in p.73, "Imperial Austria: Treasures of Art, Arms and Armor
from the State of Styria"
Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, 1992

Q.E.D.

I thought I had dug up an excellent reference when I stumbled upon the book by Amina Okada ~ "Imperial Mughal Painters" however it contained only half a dozen lightweight references somewhat unrelated to the central theme I have worked into this thread relating to Daro Shikoh...I did however rumble into one fact that Daro's son was captured by the forces of Aurangazeb and imprisoned whereupon he was slowly poisoned to death by poppies being soaked in water with which he had to drink...
Another powerful flower pictorially was the Lilly shown below with Shah Jehan along with a Firangi straight sword .

Perhaps a glance at similar decorative style to floral may indicate a sister to floral technique ~ That of sunburst ...Please see http://shastardhari.com/blog/ for an excellent rendition of the intricate sunburst design to certain tribal sword pommels. Quote" Sunburst symbology is often seen on Indian swords, shields and battle standards, it represents the ‘Sooraj Bansi’ or the Sun Dynasty of the Vedic warrior god Rama Avtar, the embodiment of the Kshatriya warrior." Unquote.

Shown below; Sunburst pommel designs.

Thank you Ibrahiim for bringing this link to our attention.
It is interesting reading, but unfortunately the author does only say that it is so, he does not give any evidence why it is so.
I think that when someone with an Indian name writes something, most believe in it, but I would like some more proof - why and from where does he know it?
As the author lives in the 21st century and not in the 17th or 18th century, he must give some proof of from where he has his knowledge.

I have to agree ..I was a bit despondent having ploughed through the entire works but the support work on Shah Jehan and on the painter fraternity of the Mughals was interesting.

Ibrahiim, researching means reading a lot, and a lot is of no 'interest', but all the same one learns something, and remembers most of it - hopefully:-).
The suns shown on the discs look quite different, and have a different number of rays, but I have not yet started to look into this part.

Research indeed is reading a lot for many, or for some, like myself, a great deal of 'browsing', and many findings are through pure serendipity. While using systematic approach in a networking type manner in order to reach key areas where context might hold clues or important data, sometimes those details are found in completely unrelated searches.

In some of the decoration and motif in Indian arms there do seem to be variations in the number of elements in images portrayed such as petals, or rays in the case of solar representation. However as far as I know, there has not been proof found that numeric instance is significant as far as certain symbolism etc. It is tempting to consider that there is such significance imbued, but aesthetics become a strong possibility as well. Some such things we may never know as the work changed in imitation over generations and what the original artisan intended is unknown.

There is of course another part to the equation; In respect of the attempted fusion in artwork and Islamic script and in the general subject of the Mystic involvement Daro Sikoh was attempting in bringing together the two religions of Hinduism and Islam there is plenty to be concerned about. Aurangzeb set out to annihilate the entire family of Daro Shikoh but not content with that destruction he ordered his artists to seek out and obliterate the records...Paintings were removed and destroyed; entire or huge parts of complete portfolios vanished. Where Islamic script was included it was painted out in gold paint. The records were smudged and history was given another spin contorting all that had transpired. What we are left with are remnants of the true story and it is for this reason that authors have so little to report...because it has been changed stolen and destroyed. That is the real reason why it is so difficult to fathom...

On a lighter note simple artwork of the Hindu style can be found in geometric subject matter in many Indian households for example in the cyclic form below...

Ibrahiim, what I dont quite understand, is why you all the time write about Dara Sikoh and not about Jahangir - who was the one who started the interest about the flowers?

If I am understanding correctly, there was concern about the author of the linked article on teghas and examples of pommel discs bearing solar themes, in that his comments and observations were not supported by references and cites. It seems to me that in many writings on Indian arms, particularly those written from more of a traditional and theological posture by someone indoctrinated in the religion(s) being described, and as far as toward the sword, such academically oriented references are often not observed.

The original theme of this thread has been toward the study of the use of floral motif in tulwar motif, and whether certain symbolism might be present accordingly. The digression to certain astral themes in pommel discs has entered the discussion as some might instead have floral themes en suite with the hilt overall , and the variations are observed as such. We were looking for symbolic convention with such astral themes much in the same manner as floral motif.

While the floral interest used in motif and decoration may have begun early in the Mughal dynasties, it seems that the potential for closer examination into symbolism within these artistic creations was prevalently noted in the album of Dara Shikoh. Though he was not the first Mughal to lean toward syncretic relations between other religions and Islam, he more openly highlighted European influences in art and botanicals. His deep beliefs in mysticism in Sufi as well as perhaps degree of adaption of European occult beliefs filtered through their herbals, volumes of these ideologies, led to his ultimate demise as a heretic.

Those dynamic conditions are perhaps a leading situation as offering some clues toward the use of floral motif in Mughal art and weapons motif, at least in that particular period. The other circumstances with Jahangir it seems were more aligned with dynastic leitmotif and a less dimensional content, while the Dara Shikoh period offers other more intriguing possibilities.

Salaams Jenns, Thank you for your post. As I see it Jehangir and for that matter Shah Jehan have fairly flat, concise and well recorded histories on the subject, however, virtually the entire record of Dara-Shikoh has been manipulated and changed beyond recognition even down to almost entire portfolios of art works that have mysteriously vanished and others that have been erased even to the extent of having been painted out with gold paint (in the case of those artworks containing Islamic script).

Dara Shikoh and Aurangzeb went to war over this clash which ended disastrously when Aurangzeb won and had Dara-Shikoh tried tortured and executed for heresy... and many of the rest of his family persecuted and murdered. Is it therefor any wonder that this aspect grabs attention?

Dara was engaged much of the time with mystics and for a time he became fascinated in merging Islam and Hinduism together...It is the critical period in the mid 1600 s that inspires my attention at exactly the pivotal point that he fell foul of the Machiavellian tactics of his brother Aurangzeb. It can only be left to the imagination what may have transpired had he won against Aurangzeb and how the whole face of decoration not to mention The Mughal Empire and India would have altered...would it not?

Compared to the earthquake in geo-political terms that this event may have precipitated the other actors have a bland uneventful place in history, thus, it is this aspect that I focus in on.. I hope this does not deter anyone examining Shah Jehan or Jehangir's input into aspects of floral design in this era.

In studying The Mughals, Dara Shikoh is essential reading and although the subterfuge planned by Aurangzeb was almost entirely successful I think the more interesting account has yet to be penned...It was he who tried in fuse together floral Hindu art with the geometry of Islamic script. He was trying to unite the two concepts together and with the Mystics he almost did it...and would have performed the incredible feat of uniting two languages to boot...

It is for these reasons that I place into the discussion the Dara-Shikoh dilemma and posit that this contains the real sense in the debate over floral design which shrouds the more important Machiavellian business of The Mughal Empire.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.