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and yes, Alan's last post prettily summed up everything about keris spiritualism/mysticism. Very good general overview, thus my advice to be cautious all the times on how to treat one's keris.
For those who believe and practice keris bearing as a "package" or those who have experience in this matter, my concerns does not apply. I am concerned to those do not believe, or do not have the knowledge in handling keris as a package, thus suffer in later days (not necessarily him the keris bearer, it could be the surrounding people that he cares about, or later generations. |
Hello all,
Just an update for the 5th day. Have dispensed with rag and went for ali foil (thanks Alam Shah). Have managed to heat most days. Discernible movement around blade axis but no movement away from the blade. |
Imas, could you please describe exactly how you are carrying out this procedure?
Where do you grip the blade? How hot do you get the blade? If this has been glued in place with an epoxy resin like Araldite, you are going to have to get the tang to above 100C before the bond will be weak enough to pull apart. Araldite begins to soften at about 60C, but you need to get it to probably around 120C before you have a very weak bond. If it held with jabung, it does not need to get quite as hot; jabung is made from a natural resin and wax, once the wax content starts to soften the bond weakens.Shellac has a slightly higher melt point If it is held by tension on cloth, or hair, the tang needs to get hot enough to cause the material to start to smolder How long do you heat and twist/pull at each heating attempt? When I have a difficult hilt I usually work at it for about 15-20 minutes at a time. Do you alternate the sides of the blade to which you are applying heat? I note that you have opted to use aluminium foil. Can you feel the hilt warming through the foil? How much pressure do you apply when you try to pull the hilt away from the blade? A keris of this age and type should not be at all difficult to remove the hilt. Five days is the sort of effort that is required from an ivory hilt that the tang has rusted into. |
Hello Mr. Maisey,
to try and separate the hilt from blade I grip the blade approx 1 hand width down the blade, enough space that with my right hand I am hard up against the edge of the hilt with thumbs almost fully extended. I alternate the 2 sides of the blade heating, approx 3 fingers length (50mm/2") along the sororan area closest to the hilt. I only heat for as long as it takes the blade to warm my left hand on the blade. I generally heat and cool for a maximum of 10 minutes at a time. I don't feel much heat coming through the foil. I find that when my left hand is warm the sororan area closest to the hilt is getting almost too hot to comfortably touch. I'm not using too much pressure, am using the guideline from one of the posts of using the strength of the thumbs alone to dictate the force. Am using mainly wrist strength for sideways movement (i.e. no forearm strength). I'm using a gradual increase in force (i.e. no abrupt wrenching/application of torque). I have noticed an almost burnt tobacco smell that still lingers long after the blade has cooled. |
Thanks for that Imas.
I suspect that you are not getting the blade nearly hot enough. I suggest that you hold the blade with your bare hand about halfway along the blade; when the blade gets too hot to hold, stop heating. By "too hot to hold", I mean that if you hold it any longer you're probably going to finish up with a sore hand. You do not stop heating when the blade only gets warm. If a blade is fixed with either jabung or shellac, the level of heat required will cause the jabung or shellac to bubble from around the base of the hilt, or mendak if one is fitted. When you grip the blade to work the hilt back and forth and to press it off the blade with thumb pressure, you need to use a lump of old rag to grip the blade, if you do not, you will burn your hand, or cut it. It is possible to exert quite a lot of force by pushing your thumbs together, so if this is how you are doing it, the force should be sufficient. If you feel that your hands are perhaps not strong enough, you can use folded newspaper to protect the blade, and clamp it into a vice. By "folded newspaper" I do not mean one or two sheets, I mean half an inch or so of tightly compacted paper on each side of the blade. Ten minutes may or may not be long enough, you need to judge the heat by feeling it, and I've told you how to do that. The time is not critical. The regimen of repeated heating and cooling over a period of days is only resorted to with a hilt that is very difficult to remove, and we normally only find these on quite old keris. The most difficult hilts I have had to work with were ivory on old Sumatra keris. These were all very difficult and took a long time to release. Jawa and Madura hilts I have never encountered any real problems with, they normally let go at the first attempt. If I were doing this hilt of yours, I would not use foil, however, if you feel that it gives you more confidence to use, by all means do so, however, I suggest that you limit the foil cover to only the bottom part of the hilt, so that your bare hand will grip the bare wood, and you can feel the heat through it. This is a small hilt, you do not want it to get too hot, you cannot feel how hot it gets if you cover it. To return to the subject of heat. When we heat treat steel to harden it, we take the temperature to a cherry red, this equates to around 700degrees centigrade. That is hot. It will burn right through your skin and flesh. When the steel is hot we cool it suddenly by plunging into oil or water. After this the steel is hard, but it will break easily, so to make it able to be used we draw some of the hardness out of it. To do this we gently heat the steel again until it shows a colour on the polished surface of straw or blue, or what ever colour we need for the purpose that the blade will be put to. You can see this colour change effect if you sharpen a chisel on a grind stone, if the chisel edge starts to go blue you'd better dip it in water immediately, or you'll have a soft chisel. OK, so you can see that to get steel hot enough to make it soft, you've got to get it very hot. To get a blade hot enough to make it soft you need to leave it sitting in a working fire for a length of time. It is totally impossible to make steel hot enough to soften it in even the slightest degree with a candle. Additionally, a keris blade is usually only hardened at most up to about three quarters of its length, it is not usually hardened at all in the area of the sorsoran. A keris blade is made of iron and steel, the steel is a thin wafer inserted between two layers of iron, even if you get the outside of the blade very hot, the steel core of the blade will not be as hot as the outside of the blade. Steel contains carbon and that allows it to be hardened. Iron does not contain carbon, and cannot be hardened. You can heat iron all day long, plunge it into water, and it will still be soft. It is impossible for you to do any damage at all to your blade by heating it with a candle. |
Hello Mr. Maisey,
I appreciate the advice and your taking the time to step me through the process. I'll shorten up the ali foil on the hilt (was using it to protect the hilt from any damage I might inadvertently do with the candle flame). I'll let the candle play longer on the blade to build up the heat so I can feel the heat with the hand I hold the hilt with. Am finding the project very interesting and appreciate everyone's input/pointers. |
Imas, you will find that once you've done this two or three times its very, very easy, and this drawn out experience you're having at the moment will be like a bad memory.
The hand that holds the hilt will tell you if it is getting too hot. The hand that holds the blade will tell you if it is not hot enough. |
Hilt removed
Hello,
bit the bullet today and after heating up the sorsoran area used a bit more force with a semi corkscrew action and the handle came off. Was tightly attached with yarn and rag. Before proceeding to the de-greasing stage I have a couple of questions: Best way to remove the yarn and rag? Can the yarn and rag be reused? Would dearly like to keep the keris with it's components I received it with as much as possible Many thanks http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...n/keris005.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...n/keris006.jpg |
Just pull it off and throw it away. Its rubbish.
When you refit the hilt you will use knitting wool. |
Thanks Mr. Maisey.
Next step is the degrease which hopefully will happen this weekend. Also have started inquiries about obtainability of arsenic. |
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But along that same desire to preserve, i had a couple of instances where the wrap was human hair and i have kept the remnants of those wraps in a little box. I know i'm crazy, but it just seemed too personal to part with. :shrug: :) |
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To get back in topic, I look forward to see how this proceeds. Thanks for sharing this. J. |
Step 2: Degrease
Hello all,
spent a while trying to get an immersion suspension tube setup and finally managed to get 3 drink bottles glued together without leaks. So can now proceed with the degrease stage. I had a look in the local Asian Supermarket for some of the items mentioned (i.e. Axion dishwash liquid) but to no avail. I used the following advice “I usually do it in the kitchen sink with warm water, dishwash liquid and soft toothbrush, then I rinse off and dry thoroughly before putting into the juice.” I assembled the following items http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...6Sept10004.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...6Sept10008.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...6Sept10009.jpg I then ran the water and immersed the keris in the soapy warm water. http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...6Sept10010.jpg I then gave the keris a good scrubbing with the toothbrush, there was quite a bit of surface rust on the peksi(?) http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...6Sept10013.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...6Sept10014.jpg I then proceeded to dry the keris with some towel rag http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...6Sept10015.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...6Sept10016.jpg And now it should be ready for step 3. |
Step 3: Juice Soak
Hello all,
I have created an immersion suspension tube from 3 clear plastic drink bottles and Selley's All Clear Sealant. The clear plastic tubes will enable me to take pictures showing the in process effect of the juice on the blade. The tube is sitting in a clear plastic container just in case a leak develops. The keris fits into the tube and can be covered entirely by juice, I especially wanted the peksi covered as it appeared to have the most rust. The amount of juice used was around 1.7 litres, the length of the keris is approx 18" (45cm). I noticed after the first couple of hours a kind of settling effect on the juice with the top 3" (7cm) noticeably more transparent. http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...6Sept10018.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...6Sept10020.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...6Sept10021.jpg |
Imas, if i do like this inside home my wife ask for divorce :)
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Hello Marcokeris,
words have been exchanged and assurances (well...lies) given that "it won't take long" |
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:D the word 'long' is relative. couple of weeks isn't 'long'.
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Thank's for sharing your work! And good luck for your wedlock! :D :D
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Thanks
it's the fungus on the pineapple juice I'm looking forward to |
I strongly recommend that you put the job outside, however it probably won't get too bad, because you're using a tube arrangement, rather than a trough, so there is less area of juice exposed to the air, additionally, the fungus only grows when its warm, and your weather is not real warm at the moment.
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Mate, you do not want that solution spilled in the house after about a week . :eek:
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When I clean blades I do it in basement.
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Daily Wash
Left the keris blade in the pineapple juice solution for a couple of days
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10004.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10005.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10006.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10013.jpg |
Daily Wash Part 2
Then brushed with a toothbrush under warm running water
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10016.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10017.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10018.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10019.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10020.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10021.jpg And then the keris blade was transferred back to the pineapple juice solution |
Questions
When I put the keris blade back in the juice I poured the juice into another container and then re-poured into the tube to mix the juice solution up. Should I do this?
Any pointers on dealing with the rust in the tungkekan(?) and along the peksi(?)? http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10022.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10023.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...9Sept10024.jpg |
As to pouring the juice in and out of containers, I feel it is neither positive nor negative. I use wall paper troughs to clean in, and just leave the juice there until the job is done, if the fungus forms on top I just scoop it off and throw it away.
The hard rust in the joint between blade and gonjo will very probably never go, the only truly effective way to fix this is to remove the gonjo, clean the joint area, and reset the gonjo with epoxy resin mixed with iron filings in between blade and gonjo. This has been the preferred method of blade preservation with very old blades since epoxy resin became available, and it prevents further deterioration. I would not suggest that you did this, it is a job for somebody with the necessary skills and experience. However I do strongly suggest that you use a sharp tool to pick the rust out from between blade and gonjo --- this does not need to be a perfect clean up job, just get the worst of it off the top --- and also all over the blade in the the pits and pockets where it will appear. I use a three sided file ground to a radiused point, a small pocket knife, and a saddlers awl to do this mechanical cleaning. I use a 2.5X machinists loupe during this mechanical cleaning process. By the look of this blade you will probably get an acceptable result straight from the pineapple juice. After you think that you have it about as clean as you can get it, give it a final soak in the pineapple juice, then just rinse thoroughly and dry thoroughly, spray with WD40 and allow to drain over night. It won't be a perfect stain job, but it will be OK, and it will avoid the necessity for arsenic, and the difficult part of the process. |
Second Wash
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Second Wash Part 2
Scrubbed under running water, the blade pattern (pamor?) really starting to show and under light...so is the rust. I had a go at a small bit of rust and required a bit of work to remove. Will soak and scrub for another couple of days before getting in to the rust removal on the weekend.
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...0Sept10006.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...0Sept10007.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...0Sept10009.jpg http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/u...0Sept10010.jpg |
You do not do the rust picking away in one big slap.
You do it every time you take the blade out of the juice. Once you remove a speck of rust, it will probably show again several times after you take the blade from the juice, so you clean it off every time you take the blade out of the juice and rinse and brush it. Eventually the rust no longer appears. The process only takes a few minutes, its no big deal. |
Hi everyone
I know I drop in a little late in the conversation, but it took me a while to through all the posting ;) Some of the forum mates know that I love keris and that my favourite subject is keris handles. I don't want to blow on the ashes, but please do not immerge handles in boiling waters. It’s a waste. That is understood and the subject seems to gather everybody approving. But something aroused in my mind that hasn't been mentioned in this posting. Alan talked, very well by the way, about the isi, yoni, and digdaya. Such things, that I believe in, are rarely talk and I understand it. But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. I know that the Malaysians don't give the same importance to the blade and to the handle (except in some rare cases and in the patan influenced area) but I would like to hear of the other keris lovers and pengukir. Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade? Regards, Cedric |
That is a thoughtful question Cedric, however, I feel that if meaningful discussion is to flow from your question, you need to narrow the focus a little and define the geographic location, and the period, to which you wish the question to apply.
In other words:- where and when? |
Dear Cedric,
Actually Malaysians also put same importance to the keris hilts though not as much as the blade. Then again, it all depends on why we collect keris in the first place? If the purpose is "isian", then of course the way the collector's concerned perspective would vary, say compare to those collecting keris for the sake of the love of artistic objects. This also may vary depending on personal experience, gurus (if any) and peers. Some of the Malaysian keris philosophy was adopted from the Bugis perspective, where not too long ago (even in 20th C), keris handls are attached to the blades permanently using traditional resins (mixture of damar, kemenyan, melati flower and a needle). This mixture has everything to do with esoteric requirement, and handles fixed like this, according to Bugis tradition, are not to be removed if the pamossa (isian?/yoni?/power etc..) is to be retained. Even when the keris is due to cleaning (Muharram /Maulud /Hari Raya Haji), only the blade is to be immersed in the cleaning solution. The hilt (and the watingan) is to be let dry. As I also collect Bugis and pattani pieces beside Jawanese, I treat them according to the keris's origins... for a Bugis keris, I treat it like a Bugis would, and that also goes to the Pattani and Jawanese pieces. |
Hi everyone
Thanks for the answers Alan I would suggest first java before second half of the 19th century. regards |
Cedric, in his "History of Java", Raffles wrote something to the effect that at the time he was there the place of the keris in Javanese society was similar to the place of the small sword in European society, 50 years earlier. Raffles came to Jawa in 1811 or 1812.
So, if we're talking 50 years earlier, we're talking around 1750, we need to remember that the Court of Mataram moved from Kartasura to Surakarta in 1745. The Kartasura era was a troubled one, the period between the death of Sultan Agung and the establishment of Karatsura was continual turmoil, Sultan Agung's reign was characterised by war and expansion, Mataram itself was established in a fashion not dissimilar to a Mafia takeover, prior to Mataram we had Pajang which again was not really rooted in peaceful legitimacy, before Pajang , Demak which replaced Majapahit following the internal tensions that had weakened the power of this once mighty kingdom. As we all know, Demak was Islamic, and as a part of Islam's gentle insinuation into Javanese society, the keris was adopted as Islam's own. To attempt to understand the original place of the keris in Javanese society, we need to go back to at least Majapahit, and we need to try to understand the place of the keris as a whole within that society, before we can begin to understand the place of a component part of that keris. If we consider the hilt of the keris in Islamic Jawa, I would suggest that the hilt has no role other than to complete the dress. Consider:- the maker of a keris blade can an mpu, in which case he is a cultural descendant of the same common ancestor as the rulers of Jawa, and he has the power to create a symbolically and magically charged cultural artifact; if he is not an mpu, he is at least a pande, or a craftsman. On the other hand, the maker of a hilt is a tukang, "tukang jejeran", in other words a tradesman. Tradesmen are not engaged in the production of magically, or symbolically charged artifacts, they simply do a job for money. To find a time in Jawa when the role of the hilt of a keris can be interpreted in terms other than utilitarian, we need to go back a very long way in time, and we need to gain an understanding not only of Javanese society at that time, but of the underlying values of societies within Maritime South East Asia. Cedric, I could waffle on and provide several thousand words of ideas, hypotheses and unsupported rumours, but I cannot provide a single, solid supportable comment in answer to what I understand the core intent of your question to be. If you do indeed have an intense interest in this question, you may come to some understanding of the matter if you are prepared to immerse yourself in a study of the society of early Jawa, and of other more primitive societies in Maritime SE Asia in more recent times. I cannot give you the answer you seek. |
In general this will be correct but what is with the so called Gana hilts? I have seen some which are attributed to Java.
In case to Bugis Kerdas hilts I want to remember to this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10454 Regards, Detlef |
Detlef, Cedric asked for clarification of the role of the hilt in respect of Javanese keris, and he nominated the period prior to +/-1850.
Now you ask "--- what is with ---Gana hilts---?" Why limit the question to only this hilt style? We can find many hilt forms in the Javanese keris that are continuations of pre-Islamic Javanese traditions, and we can hypothesize in respect of these hilt forms until the cows come home, but to provide a definitive, supportable response to a clear, concise question is a different matter altogether. If the point of this exercise is to be a parade of all the hypotheses that float around Javanese hilt forms, then let us declare the party open. If the point of the exercise is to be to provide a solid, supportable response to a very worthwhile question, then perhaps somebody amongst us can provide the answers that I cannot. |
If we consider the hilt of the keris in Islamic Jawa, I would suggest that the hilt has no role other than to complete the dress.
Maybe I have understand something wrong ( please have in mind that english isn't my native language) but in my understanding (what I have learned, read and have been told) have a Gana hilt a other role than only to complete the dress. But I might be wrong by this. :shrug: |
Detlef, you have possibly heard and read the same, or similar things to those that I have heard and read. However, I have the character defect that I do not believe everything I read or am told. I want a lot more than somebody's personal, or group, belief that something is so. Most particularly where keris beliefs come into play, I want a lot more than 20th. century Javanese belief, or imaginative hypotheses constructed to suit a personal hobby horse.
All the ideas and stories are interesting, and in the right context can provide the foundations for congenial conversation. But after the conversation is finished, nothing has been substantiated, and all the big questions are still left standing with no supported answers. There are at least two ways that we can approach the subject that Cedric has raised:- we can pull out all our interesting stories and ideas, or we can attempt to provide solid, supported answers. I've probably heard most of the interesting stories, so these don't hold much interest for me, but I would really appreciate some solid supportable answers, because in spite of a great deal of searching, I have yet to find these answers. |
Understand and taken! :)
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