Nando, thank you for your comments. I agree with Jim about the origin of the word being to a certain point irrelevant. If jambiyya means "hip" it does not authorize to call "jambiyyas all daggers carried on the hip. Szabla is an historic weapon, with clear features, including a curved blade, no matter what the name meant originally. If it is a fact that the term is used in other sense and is accepted as such in english, it is all what I wanted to know. It only surprised me.

Fearn, I enjoy your comments, as always. :)

Hi Gonzalo

It is not a question of relevancy; it was just because:

Sorry :shrug: .

Saludos

Fernando.

Hi Folks,

A wonderful and most informative thread. Thank you all for your inputs.

Without being a linguist, I can fairly confidently say that languages rely to a very considerable degree on prevailing conventions. And these conventions impart the meaning to many words used. For example, `Cool' today can have a very different meaning than say a hundred years ago.

Often, in a given era, certain terms were used synonymously with other terms, which in a later era were sharply differentiated - The nomenclature of Gaucho knives immediately springs to mind, as do ancient fencing terms. It is the researcher's task to unravel what a particular term meant then and today. Failure to do so simply leads to confusion and incorrect interpretations.

Cheers
Chris

No, Fernando. In this point (spadroon) I gave my point of view. And Jim latter stated that the origin of the words were not very important for certain purposes. And then, agreeing with him and in another subject (szabla), I made the above comment. Please don´t be sorry, as there is no reason for. :eek: :D

Hi Gonzalo, Fernando and Chris,
I have many times emphasized I am far from being a linguist, but that does not curtail my inate curiosity. You guys are all really good at this stuff, and I really appreciate all the insight into these terms.

After bringing up the topic, and being satisfied with the information presented, it became even more apparant that in studying the weapon itself, the term became somewhat secondary, though not discounting the importance of the observations.

I really just wanted to know if the term itself may have reflected the somewhat pretentious character of the weapon itself, focused on the term spadroon. The szabla thing is irrelevant to what I was seeking, as are reviews of other weaponry terms, despite interesting sidetracks.

Thanks so much guys :) every time you all talk, I learn!! Outstanding,

All the best,
Jim

Diamond
 

Hi Everyone,

Jim contacted me to tell me about this forum so I have just registered. I recognise a few names on this forum but to those who don't know me my name is Mark Cloke and my area of interest is the Birmingham sword cutlers of the 17th/18th/19th century. Currently researching the 'running fox' mark and 'Harvey'.

On the subject of spadroons and the diamond motif I think we can say that this was not limited to Thurkle. I have seem quite a few of these and they are marked to a wide array of London and provincial cutlers. I wouldn't rule out Thurke introducing it (someone had to be first) but in my opinion it could have been anyone. I also wouldn't rule out a single 'hilt maker' supplying them to a wide array of cutlers. Some of these manufacturers often used by the large cutlers such as scabbard makers, hilt makers, engravers etc. are lost to time as only the 'retailers' names are marked (unless in Silver and hallmarked). I have quite a few spadroons on my site (not sure if I should link to my own site) with and without the diamond.

I don't really have an opinion on the five ball discussion. The Masonic link does sound interesting and they were certainly very active during this period. Now the seed is in my mind I will see what I can find out.

Mark.

Welcome aboard, Mark :) .
Fernando

Don't worry I already did. You have done a lot of work on it and is a great resource. :) . Welcome aboard!

Jeff

Hi Mark
Can't you include the link to your site in your profile?
Fernando

Hi Mark,
Its fantastic to see you here!! Welcome, and thank you for coming aboard.

Please do link to your site, which for the information of those here, is an outstanding resource which reflects the in depth research and detail that is characteristic of Mark's work. His article on the Gill family swordsmiths, which is presented by the Royal Armouries, is an excellent and comprehensive study which holds fascinating information on these important makers.

Mark, thank you for the insight regarding the diamond shape in hilt motif on these spadroons, and it seems that there is little to support any particular symbolism or assign to to a certain maker at this point. The network of hilt makers supplying various cutlers does make it difficult to designate such a design to a single one, and it seems that the diamond theme perhaps may simply be a popular geometric of the period.

The Masonic theory on the five ball hilt is one that I have been thinking on for quite some time, and I reopened the case here for discussion knowing that the core of knowledge here would provide just the venue to look more deeply into the possibilities. Your joining us here is a profound asset, thank you so much, and again welcome!!!

All very best regards,
Jim

Looking further into the choice of the word 'spadroon' and perhaps my query on it should have been directed more toward its semantics than etymology, I found some interesting notes in Egerton Castle's book "Schools and Masters of Fence" (p.207). These would seem to somewhat support my thoughts toward the term being more of a pretentious application used with reference to gentlemans fencing weapons and techniques of the times. Coupled with neoclassic allusion and the cultured elegance obsessions of the gentry, the term seems to have been more of a colloquial term in the sense of a fad of this period referring to cut and thrust.

Castle notes on p.207, "...the Italians and Germans had, it is true, a cutting play of thier own, and from them we took our so-called 'spadroon' or cut and thrust play, but it was practiced with weapons extremely light in comparison with our English backsword".

On p.243, Castle notes further, "...a cutting sword of still narrower dimensions, and with a much simpler guard approximating that of the smallsword was called 'spadroon' in England; it was in fact similar to the German cut and thrust rapier of the 18th century, which has been called spadone or spadrone since the disuse of the regular two handed swords, in the same way as the claymore retained the old name of a very different weapon".
* the reference to claymore of course meaning basket hilt, while the actual claymore was the Scottish two hand great sword.

"...the German spadroon was a regular double edged sword, but any light back or shearing sword was so called in English.

Best regards,
Jim

Bingo ;)

Well duh. I do live under a rock in looking at the past. Some quite interesting beading from the past.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13784

Cheers

Hotspur; I wonder if the Switzzlers and Germane-ish types were masonic

sarcasm, please excuse a senile old man

Aw Glen, ya rascal!!! :)
Very good observation, and you're right, they're beads of sorts :)
Great to see Eljays work, he's always been brilliant at working on swords, from when we collected British patterns in California together about thirty some years ago. I truly learned a lot from him and his knowledge of European swords, which gives his work the elegance that is well known.

Nice one Glen....and uh, senile is not you... you're too sharp !(sword pun) :)

All the best,
Jim

Jeff, would it be troublesome to look up the number 161 C sword in the picture you posted? I have a sword with the exact decoration on the guard - a hippocampus.

Thanks!

Hi Dmitry,

It simply states that this is the "seahorse version of the naval officers sword". I will include a scan of the caption (sorry about the poor quality).

All the best
Jeff

Jeff, thank you very much! This confirms that my sword was a naval officer's weapon.

Very nice!

Jeff

Yes,green with envy,Dmitry!! Very nice sword...

Jeff, you show a naval reference. It wouldn't happen to be 'LeSabre D' abortage' by M Petard, would it? I was wondering if anyone can recommend this book? If it's not Petard's, could you name this reference? Thanks!
Mark

Hi Mark,

I think I listed it on the original scan which Dmitry was inquiring about. It is Michel Petard's Des Sabres et Des Epees Tome I .

All the Best
Jeff

Thank you, Jeff. Sorry I missed the original reference. I'll have to keep an eye out for a copy of Petard's volume.

I know that sword Dmitry :) Another possible small naval from Shiloh came my way this spring and I had adopted it. This one is really quite an oddball and maybe harder to place in time than the hippocampus counterguard. I had seen another twin to that one somewhere and I am forgetting where.

Cheers

GC

Hi Jim,,
The sword that you used in the your first post is still hanging in my collection.
I have another spadroon that I am thinking about buying yet I am having a bit of trouble identifying the model,,I have determined it to be made by Wooley,,due to a vague mark near the ricasso
I will attach some very poor pics of the hilt and perhaps one of you guys will recognize it.
One of the photos in the post above mine has a very similuar hilt yet has a large curved blade. Mine has a straight sharp blade like the 5 ball hilt in the picture you used in the original post.
I apologize for the quality of the photos,I had to take with a cell phone and will post better ones if I decide to make the purchase.
Thanks for any input
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1.../Photo2706.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1.../Photo2709.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1.../Photo2712.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1.../Photo2713.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1.../Photo2714.jpg

Hello, Glen.
This is a nice sword in French style. It's not naval, but an army officer's, perhaps etat-major.

Beautiful sword, Glen! As Dmitry pointed out, it's probably French and with no absolute naval provenance, there's no way of proof. However, In Annis book on sea swords, he does say that hangers (which were very popular with naval personnel) that had nautical motiffs might very well have seen service at sea. Things such as shell guards, sea horses, anchors, Poseidon, ocean waves, etc, that wouldn't normally appeal to a hunter (who would prefer a more decorated piece with wild boar, splay of weapons, hunting dogs, powderhorn decoration, etc, etc. In 'Swords for Sea Sercive', May says that some of these might have also appealed to Marine officers, if not naval personnel. Of course, your sword isn't a hanger, but one never knows where it might have served.

Thanks Dmitry,

This one was in really rough condition, with the blade covered with a deep layer of crusty rust. The wear side ha been ground down as if mounted on a display and still retains some of the screws in the hilt. This had been priced accordingly for my budget and was of interest for exactly threads such as this one.

Cheers

GC

Hi Alan,
That sword is indeed a beauty!!! and this one is nice also, especially marked to Wooley. This is an infantry officers spadroon in my opinion, and Wooley seems to have greatly favored French fashion c.1790s and early 19th century. The fluted ebony grip is similar to grips I have seen on his sabres with brass stirrup hilts, one marked Wooley & Deakin (1801-1803). The hilt style on this corresponds to those of c.1780s and I have seen these in silver with the raised perpandicular crossguard design, it seems 1790s to about 1810. This is what I recollect offhand, but personally I think they're very attractive sabres, and in line with the five ball hilt style.

All best regards,
Jim

Thank you Jim,,It was the fluted ebony that made me have to have it.
Again Thank you for your knowledge
Alan