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An M?
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Ian |
Hi Ian,
Very nice group with good looking examples. It seems you are seeking to equip 'Knights Volunteer Yeomanry L.C. Troop". :) :cool: Your H.C. sword appears interesting, I look forward to seeing more when you receive it. My Regards, Norman. |
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I have five P1796 LC swords at the moment. :) I bought two of them because they looked a bit sad for themselves and were without grips. I gave them a light clean to remove active rust and regripped them. Very enjoyable. They will be sold on soon to make way for my P1796 HC sword. I know that you bought Fernando's P1796 HC sword. What is your area of interest? I don't think that my P1796 HC sword will arrive this side of Christmas. I will update the thread when it does. Ian |
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There is plenty of space between this symbol and the '2nd. Company' for a(non visible) Regiment number digit/s :o . Fernando . |
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Ian |
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Ian |
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Ian, I don't know if you have this Osprey book, but it might come handy.
OTTO VON PIVKA - THE PORTUGUESE ARMY OF THE NAPOLEONIC WARS A very decent concise summary of the Portuguese forces, uniforms, etc, especially considering that it is in English. It's available for preview here - http://books.google.com/books?id=FdL...age&q=&f=false |
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I have many of the Osprey books but not this one. Thank you. Ian |
Hi Ian,
My main interest lies with Indian weaponry but this year I have been fortunate in picking up some 18th and early 19th Cent British swords, including a 1796 H.C. Troopers sword, courtesy of Fernando as you spotted.:) This has rekindled my interest in this period which was my main area of collecting when I was a teenager ( some time ago I hasten to say). All my pieces from way back then were eventually sold in pursuit of wine, women etc., in hindsight it wasn't a bad deal :D ;) but now I'm looking to reinstate some of my old collection so always on the lookout. To be honest my tastes are quite catholic so a nice piece from any period and any culture and a user is liable to pique my interest. My Regards, Norman. |
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I now have the sword but I can't really offer any more information about the markings. What I would say is that I'm pretty sure that they read as the attachment. I believe that the II after R for Regimento are indeed Roman numerals for 2 and not H or N. I don't know why they would have use Roman numerals on just this part of the inscription. Were Portuguese cavalry regiments numbered in such a way? I have taken the sword apart and am the process of making a new grip from beech wood covered in leather. Ian |
Hi Guys,
If you check the Osprey series you'll see _many_ illustrations showing Napoleonic Spanish Forces wielding 1796s. The possibility of this being a Spanish sword should not be dismissively discounted. The amount of British supplies provided to Spanish Armies after 1808 was simply staggering, previous enemies or not. I can now understand why the British were so royally miffed when that equally Royal AH of Ferdinand VII went back to bed with the French, very soon after the Napoleonic Wars. OTOH, I must admit that _while the French were allies_ and not invaders, they were good allies too. It is said that the invasion of Spain did cost old Nappy the war. Confusing Times! Best M Quote:
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Manolo, it is indeed surprising the numbers of British weapons that ended up in Spain during this period. In discussions over the years concerning the so called 'Berber' sabres that became associated with Spanish Morocco via Mr. Tirri's well known book, and now seem more likely to be from the 'Spanish Main' from Cuba to South America and Mexico's gulf coast....these seem almost invariably mounted with British M1796 light cavalry blades with tips dramatically profiled.
I have seen other South American swords of mid 19th century also with British blades of the Napoleonic period. These markings are on the langet of a M1796 light cavalry sabre, and I am wondering if they might be associated with Spanish markings: Cs A 4 43 All best regards, Jim |
I read something more like C. ia 4 ta 45 (or 46, or 43), which would stand for weapon forty-plus of the 4th Company. You are the one who can
actually confirm it with a lighted loupe / magnifying glass. Now, the ia / sA could also be a 15..., 15th Rgm? BR M "En su corcel cuando sale la luna aparece el bravo zorro al hombre de mal él sabrá castigar marcando la Zeta de Zorro" http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r...tuff/Zorro.jpg Quote:
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If the sword was Spanish wouldn't 2nd be 'segundo' not 'segunda'. The number 2 has an A after it, not a O. ian |
Hi Ian,
Compañia has the feminine genre. Regimiento is of the masculine genre. So 4 a would be Cuarta (4th) Compañia. To that, you can add that Cia. is also an accepted abbreviation for Compañia. Yeah, yeah, I know. Those pesky romance verbs, tenses, adverbs and genres. (OTOH, our pronunciation is more predictable ie. men ace / menace ) : ) PD: Just think about Spanglish in NY and LA. Now you have a headache..! Quote:
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LOL!!!! :) Those pesky papparazzi's!!!! How did they get this picture of me in my sword research disguise, on the neverending quest for those elusive references ! Outstanding Manolo !, ya got me there. I wish I could get a better photo of these markings, they really are as I showed though, the Cs and an A, the numeral 4 and below 43. It is distinctly a British light cav 1796, and I've probably had it 30 years now, again, not available right now. All the best, Jim |
Dear Ian,
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But i find no clue of Regiments being numbered with Roman figures. If this is indeed a Portuguese sword, i guess the owner practiced a personal method in its marking that (maybe) only he could decipher. I am deeply sorry to be of no help :shrug: . Fernando |
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Thanks for your help anyway. I guess that the markings will just have to remain a bit of a mystery. I think that the sword saw plenty of action and a long life. The blade should be 1 1/2 inches wide . In places the blade has lost nearly 1/4 inch through excessive sharpening. Ian |
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The sword fitted with its new grip, made by myself. Rivet still to replace.
Ian |
Great work; well done.
Fernando |
Thank you Fernando. It's very time consuming making a bespoke grip but very rewarding. This one took me two days to complete.
Ian |
Hi Ian,
nice job.....what wood did you use ? Regards David |
Beautiful results.
I must confess to be envious of your abilities, I have no idea how to dismount a hilt or replate silver finish... Best M Quote:
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Absolutely magnificent Ian!!! You have done a wonderful job at maintaining the integrity of this great old warrior!! I love the M1796 heavies!!
All the best, Jim |
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Thanks very much guys. I may write a illustrated list of instructions when I make my next grip.
David, The grip was made from beech wood shaped and covered in leather. The grip was made out of two pieces. The tang is marked out on one piece and cut out to the full depth of the tang. The second piece is then glued to it. Manolo, Taking this sword apart was fairly easy as the leather buffer/washer was placed between the blade and hilt not just slid over the blade. I cut the old leather buffer away and was then able to push the blade backwards exposing about 2 mm of the tang. The peened over end of the tang can then be filed off allowing you to dis-assemble the sword. Hey presto. Jim, I have always wanted a P1796 HC sword but could never afford one. I bought this old thing at a fair price because of the grip. Ian Ian |
Hi Ian,
The M1796 heavy was one of my very first swords, I think I got it in 1966, and it was/is pretty beat up. The scabbard was mismatched (as often found), the blade welded back together at center, and it was by T Craven. I still have it, couldnt ever let it go :) In those days these things were around a hundred bucks usually if in good condition. I think I spent 50, but hey that was a lotta money then....gas was still 27cents a gallon!!! All the best, Jim |
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I wish that I had bought one when my interest in the Napoleonic Wars started after seeing the film 'Waterloo' back in the 70s. Now they sell at auction in the U.K. for up to £3000 (nearly $5000). I'd like to see a picture of your P1796 HC sword please. Ian |
All, re the markings that have been debated, I don't want to complicate matters but Portugal was not the only country to which Britain sent the P1796 heavy sword. Some 2000 P1796 HC swords were sent to Sweden around 1807 and the Swedes adopted the exact pattern as their own M1808 cavalry pallasch* (although after Bernadotte become Crown Prince Charles John in 1810, they remodelled to a more French style of sword).
Ian - very nice grip restoration. Jim - one of my 1796HC swords is by Thomas Craven who was in business from 1800-1801. Brian Robson was in error when he gave Craven's dates as 1818-20 Richard * Source : Svenska Blankvapen by Olaf P Berg |
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But talking about Portugal, below is a p1796 HC officer's sword which has a "JR" cypher on the blade. I believe this is the cypher used by John of Portugal when Prince Regent from 1799 - 1816 (the cypher became JR IV after he became king). I think sword was used by a British officer in the Portugese army after it was reorganised by Beresford in 1808 at the command of Wellington and that it originally had a GR cypher which had been polished out and re-engraved "JR"
Richard |
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Hi Richard,
As you've probably read on this thread I was very fortunate in being able to purchase from Fernando the sword that was the subject of the initial post on this thread. The V mark on the guard has never been satisfactorily explained and I wondered if you have any insight as to its meaning. The sword was discovered in Portugal and has been in the possession of a Portuguese family for some considerable time although it is not possible to determine how long that may have been nor the original source. My Regards, Norman. |
Thanks for answering my Q, Ian.
But then, if you file off the tang's end. How do you reassemble the grip afterwards, and keep the whole shebang together? Not Krazy-Glue, I hope! : ) Quote:
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Hello Manolo,
I'm sorry my explanation wasn't very accurate. The end of the tang is not filed off, just the sides of the 'mushroom' created when the tang was originally peened over. See my very basic drawing. Ian |
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I am not 100% happy with it. When sizing and finishing the wooden part of the grip you have to make the grip slightly smaller to allow for the thickness of the leather covering. I actually made the grip a little too small and so there is a slight gap between the finished grip and the backpiece. I might make another. Ian |
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Thank you so much Richard for the input on Craven. I remember all the years I researched that sword, the 1818 date seemed odd as this appeared a much earlier sword. The references I had were the old May & Annis based ones with the directory records. Its great to have updated references, and I know you're always researching as evidenced by the detail in the outstanding articles you present!!! All the best, Jim |
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Hi Ian :) , could you 'double-up' on the leather covering (if glued to the existing layer)....or would you loose the detail of the grooves ? Thanks for answering my question ....Is beech the original wood used ....or your own personal preference? Regards David |
Hi Richard,
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Fernando |
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I did think about doubling up the leather but I do think it would spoil the grooves but I suppose if I am not happy with it I could give it a try. I believe that the wood originally used would either be beech or obeche. Ian |
Hi again, Richard,
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Not trying to correct you, but the right cypher would be the monogram JPR for João Principe Regente. He was indeed crowned in 1816, but as João VI, not IV. The new cypher would then be JVI ... no more R for regent. But then if, as you say, your sword was used by a British officer, i don't see the logic in changing the British cypher into a Portuguese one. In such case the sword would have been 'donated' by the British, like thousands of them, and used by Portuguese ... or am i completely blocked :confused: Fernando |
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