Thank you so much, Spiridonov,

Your photos are an actual enrichment!

Best,
Michael

museum of artillery. Saint-Petersberg

else

I think that it is about 1530 year

Hi Spiridonov,

Judging by the shape of the buttstock, the decoration of the rear end of the barrel, the shape of the lockplate and the match holder, this is a late haquebut of ca. 1580. I cannnot properly read the date on the barrel but it should be from that period. 1420 is as impossible as 1530.

It would be great if you could get there and try to take a better picture of the date, or of the description which really should mention the date.:)

Best,
Michael

It is clear to see 1420 but i think that it is not date.

It is definitely a date but definitely not 1420; maybe some cyphers are misstruck.

Best,
Michael

No - cyphers looks very clear but i will make a new phto specially for you :) It was made by mobile phone. nex will be maket by camera :)

A Unique South German Breech Loading Arquebus, ca. 1470-1500
 

Sadly not in my collection ...

The barrel and one (of originally a set) retained interchangeable breech cast of brass or bronze, the tiller stock a modern replacement. The Late Gothic style with its characteristically chamfered edges suggests a date of late 15th century, the gun may have been cast in a Nuremberg foundry.

The breech was designed to recieve only the measure of powder and a plug while the ball was put in the barrel from the rear before inserting the breech. Originally the breech was fitted with a priming pan and cover which are now missing. The swiveling block at the rear end of the barrel acts as a loading gate.

Length of the barrel including tiller socket: 55 cm
Barrrel length: 46.2 cm
Bore: 12 mm
Weight without stock: 1.85 kg

A 500 year old rapid firing high tech engineering piece!

Best,
Michael

A Unique Detached Brass Breech for a Breech Loading Arquebus, ca. 1500
 

Sold at Hermann Historica, Munich, on October 5, 2009, hammer price 1,350 euro.

In excavated but perfectly preserved condition, originally forming part of a set of interchangeable breeches for a light rapid firing arquebus like the one presented in the previous post.

The tiny touch hole features a small pan like moulding. We may safely assume that the hook shaped staged lug on the underside drilled in the middle was scheduled to receive a horizontal blocking pin when inserted in the rear end of the gun ready to fire.

Overall length 13 cm, bore 12 mm

This, together with the one discussed previously, are the only two items of their kind that are known to me.

Best,
Michael

Michael, thank you! Its AMAZING!
Looks like hangonne from trattato of Ghiberti Lorenzo http://www.bncf.firenze.sbn.it/oldWe...b.228/main.htm

http://www.bncf.firenze.sbn.it/oldWe...tti/index.html

Hi Alexander, and welcome back!

Thank you so much for posting this highly important drawing, you did a tremendous work! :cool: :)

I must admit that I did not know the manuscripts of Lorenzo Ghiberti, so - wow!

Most interesting is the fact that Ghiberti died in 1455 at the age of 70. As the breech loading gun he illustrated is almost identical in all its features to the actual piece that I posted here this could mean that the gun is even older than I thought it was and it should be probably dated at least as early as the 1450's!
I am also fascinated to see what the original tiller stock looked like and that not all of them were just plain sticks.

For easier comparison I repost the images of the gun together with Ghiberti's drawings and would be grateful for any incoming comment.

I also attach a portrait of the artist Ghiberti.

Alexander, thank you again for adding valuable material to our discussions once more!

Best wishes go to Russia from Bavaria,
Michael

I have made this :)
1/ cifirs on the barrel
2/ mark on the lockplate
3/ mark on the barrel
4/ mark on the barrel

Hi Alexander,

Thank you so much for remembering our old discussion of the doubtful date ‘1420’ on a matchlock harquebus and my request of better images.

I stated that the overall style of the gun suggested a time of origin in the 1580’s but could possibly be as late as the 1620’s. The date on the barrel which read ‘1420’ was obviously a total mismatch.

Thanks to your actual images the riddle is now ready to solve and it turns out to be a real bombshell. :eek:

The maker’s mark ‘HW above a hunting horn’ that you photographed on both the barrel and lock plate show that both main iron parts were made at the same workshop. Some variants of this mark are known to be found, together with the proof mark of the town of Suhl, Thuringia, on both barrels and lock plates of matchlock and wheel-lock long guns between the 1580s and the 1630’s which are preserved in various collections, among them the Graz armory. I attach a scan from the Støckel encyclopedia of marks of makers of firearms and cranequins.

Your consent granted, I have reworked some of your imaged a bit to make them clearer.

I am quite sure that a closer inspection would discover an additional Suhl mark (SVL either together with or without a hen symbol) somewhere in the rear sections of either the barrel or the lock plate on this gun, too.

Telling from the chiseled decoration on the raised frieze at the rear end of the barrel, a dating into the 1580’s to 1590’s would be typical. Attached please see details of an almost identical frieze on the barrel of a combined wheel-lock and matchlock musket dated 1583. This is backed up by the significant shape of the pan, the grip of the pan cover and the form of the lock plate with its crescent shaped upper end at the front.

From what I have been trying to deduct we should by now expect the date on the barrel to read somewhat between the 1580’s and the 1600’s. And a date indeed it is as the decorative points between the cyphers indicate. For a number of reasons the style of the cyphers could not be correct, no way. As I cannot repost numerous dates from the 1500’s to the 1600’s here those who wish to do further research are requested to check my earlier threads. To cut a long story short: all the cyphers have been overstruck at some later date to suggest the sensationally early date of origin of 1420. This can only have been done in a fraudulent intention, perhaps while the item was in private hands some time during its long history. Not the form of one single numeral is correct, neither for 1420 nor for any period before the 19th or 20th century - which gives us a close hint to when that spurious date was struck over a correct older date which probably read 1620.

What else can be said? The barrel has been considerably shortened by about two thirds of its original length, so the impression that the piece conveys today is far from being congruent with what it looked like 400 years ago.

And: All items, whether preserved in museums or not, should be examined very closely in order to discover alterations or even (part) fakes.

Fascinating outcome, isn’t it? ;)

Thank you so much again, Alexander, we keep looking forward to more exciting discussions! :)

Best wishes,
Michael

Very interesting thread. Korea had very similar breech loaders, made of bronze, called bulangipo, which were used from the 15th century up into the late 19th century. They came in a variety of sizes.

The pictures here were taken at the Korean Army Museum at the Korea Military Academy.

When I was looked at "A Unique South German Breech Loading Arquebus, ca. 1470-1500" I was confused by one interesring detail. The part of the shape wich in red ring looks too futuristic for Ghiberti Lorenzo death-date. It is similar with element of shape of arquebuses from Zeugbuch Kaiser Maximilians I (1502).
Else one interesting detail - It seems that earlier here there was a lever for opening which has been lost later

Very keen observations, Alexander! :) :cool:

Best wishes,
Michael

What do you thing about dating of this barrel? Maby the notebook of Ghiberti Lorenzo was added later by another author?

Hi Alexander,

As I have tried to point out occasionally in former threads, any substantial dating of an object of arts and crafts should not be confined to only one criterion but should instead be based on as many criteria as possible, the latest (= 'youngest') of which would then denote ideally the correct date.

The figured and moulded staging which you rightly observed on the stocks of the Maximilian arquebuses in Jörg Kölderer's watercolors of the Maximilian Armories (generally dated to ca. 1507) is actually a very common Late Gothic ornament found on many objects from the 14th throughout the 18th century, comprising such different fields as architectural columns, bronze mortars, furniture, book bindings, etc. It is, of course, also found on various kinds of weapons. What I want to say is: the simple presence of this widely used decorative element alone does not account for any close dating of this object.

In the case of the breech loading arquebus other features like the staging and characteristic muzzle section of the barrel and the overall impression it conveys show in their synopsis that this is clearly a product of the second half of the 15th century and can most probably be narrowed down to ca. 1470, +/- ca. 10 years.

Best, ;)
Michael

Matchlock,

Thank you for a photos of breech loading harquebus in the post #5!

But one thing I cannot understand from those photos - where was the hole in the cartridge, through which it's powder charge was ignited, and was the bullet put in the cartridge or right to the barrel before it?

Also, what are the dimensions of this a weapon (at least the basics - length, weight, caliber etc.)

Hi Lee,

Thank you so much for deleting those posts containing erraneous thoughts that were not mine! ;) You sure did a great job.

Best,
Michael

Hi Zwielicht,

The touchhole is on the right hand side of the cartrigde so that its position is within the pan where the ignition takes place, just like on any 'normal' barrel.

As I tried to point out in my thread, for as far as we know from similar 'cartridges' or exchangeable breeches preserved still loaded (I posted one specimen here), we can tell that these insertable devices only contained the powder measure and plug, while the ball was separately shoved into the rear opening of the barrel before inserting and closing the breech shut.

The measurements of the Passau arquebus are:

overall length 107 cm
barrel length 78.9 cm
length of lockplate 35 cm
caliber 1.5 cm
cartridge: length 7.8 cm, outer diameter 2 cm

Best,
Michael

Touchhole and Shutting Lug on the 'Cartridge' of a Breech-Loading Pistol of ca. 1540
 

Author's photos taken in the Hofrüstkammer Vienna.

Hallo,

The chambers or cartidges of breech loading handguns were not loded with powder and plug. The attached photo is taken from an article of Zeitschrift für Historische Waffen und Kostümkunde (Volume 9 of 1922, No.4), a standard work on arms and armour, which should be familiar to any who can read German. The photo shows two chambers of breech loading handguns of the 15th Century in the collection of the Berlin armoury. Both chambers contain the original charge of powder and lead bullet. This is a clear indication that at least chambers of small bore were loaded with a lead bullet, and the bullet was not pushed awkward in the rear of the barrel before inserting the chamber.

Best wishes

Susi

Hi Susi and welcome here, :)

Thank you for your interesting input from the Zeitschrift für historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde. I have been a member of their society for 30 years and own all their volumes from 1897 thru 2010.

First, these are by no means exchangebale breeches for 'handguns' but for cannon! Portable handguns of the 15th century had small bores of ca. 12-16 mm and their breech chamber never had handles; they had no grips at all and and an overall length of only ca. 6-8 cm. Please cf. the measurements of the 1540 Passau arquebus breech chamber you cited!

Second, these seem to be exceptions to the rule. For these unregulated ages, almost anything was possible in general. As I noted though earlier in this thread, we know of other loaded breech loading cannon chambers only containing powder and wooden plug, and attached I repost my own photos of one of them. The rest of the original handle can bee seen.
Similar ones were found on the wreck of the Mary Rose, sunken in 1545, also just loaded with powder and plug.

'Nando, my dear friend, would you mind posting good images and measurements of your ca. 1440 fine cannon chamber as this is almost identical to the ones preserved in Berlin? :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

There you are :)
Bore about 30 mm.
Length 230 mm.
Width at base: 65 mm.
Weight: 3,135 Kg.

.. The wooden set up picture is a bonus ;)

.

Thank you, 'Nando, ;)

And congratulations!

Best,
Michl

Another argument for my theory that breechloading cannon chambers did not normally contain the ball:

As we can see, most of them taper and narrow towards the fore end, in order to be shoved into the barrel and tightly fit. So I think that, had they contained to ball, the latter would have been of too small caliber to match the barrel. :)

Any comments much welcome!

Best,
Michael

Hallo,

it doesn`t matter if these are chambers of small cannons, the
interesting fact is that they were loaded with a bullet. If even
chambers of cannons were loaded in this way, surely the
chambers of small handguns, where the chamber and barrel
have exactly the same bore, were loaded with a bullet.

Best wishes

Sorry,

Do you completely ignore the evidence photos I posted? :confused:

m

I have never expressed any doubt that chambers of cannons were
loaded with a plug. I refer always to chambers of handguns.
Confused ?

Oh yes, I definitely am.

Any evidence produced?

And why, in your opinion, should breech loading of handguns differ from cannon?

m

Swordfish,

Are you there?! :)

m

Does anybody have photos of these breech-loading handgonne?
http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/lautmann_1450.JPG
"breech loading handgonne, chamber missing, late 1400's. length 1,460 mm, cal 18 mm "
from
http://homepages.tig.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm

Hi Alexander.
Is this the same thing?
This is included in a PDF document with 186 pages, that i can send you by e-mail, if you are interested.

.

Thank you, Fernando!
Yes, I am interesting in... My e-mail is Spiridonov12@yandex.ru

Hi Alexander,
I didn't realize the file was so heavy and not possible to send by regular email.
So i have sent it through a special email system. I hope it reaches you any time from now. When you get it please confirm that you can open the file.

No, 'Nando,

It's another but very similiar item, and your scans are great, thank you so much! :)

I attach a better image of the gun Alexender meant.

Best,
Michl

Thank you. I have got it . Thanks for Michael too
:)

Have you got the article were tey came from, Michl ?