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Great to have you back Spunger :D
You are right David - his kris is late 19thc (I did the silver bands :D ). A great piece! |
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Spunjer's kris is a suspect because of the ivory head of the handle-- that is if it's really an ivory. Philippines has no source of Ivory. There are lumads who still wear ivory bracelets but they don't know the source. Upon inspections, I believe it could be traced back to India. It could not be borneo because ivory bracelets are only common among the lumads in caraga and davao region. I haven't seen Muslim women in muslim mindanao wear old ivory bracelets. It is hard to date folklore. As far as I know, my grandparents had been using the words turko, bombay, and negro even without meeting a turk, an indian, and an african. They are just part of our lexicon and consciousness. bombay has a proven history in the Philippines, so is the negro (slaves) during the spanish galleon trade, but the story about the turko is still not clear. I have been researching about the origin of sulu, its meaning, and what language it came from. I could not find it in early Malay words, in Spanish, but i have found it in turkish language and it means "water." It perfectly suits to the geography of sulu, the philippine province. Sanskrit also has sulu. it means "one who cuts well" and it is a term use in Indian classical dance, but Mandakranta Bose wrote in her book, Movement and Mimesis: The Idea of Dance in the Sanskritic, that the use of sulu only began in 16th century. I believe Indian's sulu is an influence of the muslim's temple dance pangalay in sulu, the Philippine province, where krises are sometimes used-- hence, the meaning, "one who cuts well." I still believe that sulu became a name of the place when the arab missionaries reached the island bringing Islam and the Ottomans were with them. The spread of Islam that time was synonymous to the expansion of the ottoman empire. |
I would disagree with you on Spunger's kris - I had it in hand and the pommel is elephant ivory with grain structure indicative of elephant ivory. Also, ivory from India and Sumatra was traded in the reaching, including reaching the Philippines,China, and Japan.
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Smithsonian photographs do not even show krises with ivory handles. I also have a copy of thirteenth century text written by a chinese trader involved in ivory trading not with the people of sulu but with the lumads (natives) of palawan. |
Hi Baganing,
This is a more general comment, rather than a specific response. I happen to work in the sciences, and there's this idea that some have called "scientific sexiness." It's when you fall head over heels in love with this wonderful idea, and then go out chasing it and trying to prove it's true. The problem with great ideas is that not all of them turn out to be so great once you get to know them. Yes, there are parallels between science and dating. In any case, what separates the good scientists from the bad ones isn't the sexiness of their ideas, it's that their sexy ideas stand up to cold, hard, often brutal scrutiny, primarily because they're testable, and withstand all attempts to refute them with the best evidence available. While I agree that you have to be a strong advocate for your ideas (and they are interesting), if you want to do truly good scholarship, you also need to find ways to test your ideas. If your ideas cannot be tested in a way that would disprove them, then they really aren't great. That's okay. I've got a closetful of sexy ideas. Most researchers do. My favorite unfulfilled sexy idea is waiting for someone discover 70 million year old fossil roots of a proto-oak from Burma--if such roots exist. Once someone finds those roots, I can write a paper that will change everyone's ideas about how plants evolved. But only if I'm right about what how those roots are constructed, and only if they exist. There may or may not be parallels between this story and trying to find a 600 year old kris to support your ideas. My 0.00002 cents. Back to lurking. Interesting thread! F |
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huh? how did you connect vikings and turks? i wish you could explain this further as this is very interesting. Quote:
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Baganing Balyan, I forgot to mention the Summer Insitute of Linguistics located in Quezon City, Philippines. You will find lots of information there as well.
Nonoy |
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You said the spanish introduced the "turko" to the philippines. Granting they did since Spain was not spared by the ottomans, they would have also introduced "vikingo" since vikings also invaded/raded spain. Why would they be selective about their history, if indeed they introduced the image or the word turko to the filipinos? anyway, I checked and compared the Y-Chromosome haplogroups of sumatra, borneo, and philippines. They all share the same haplogroups C,O,D, and K, but the only difference is that philippines has haplogroup R1B. Guess what... Turkey has R1b. I am not sure though if the haplogroup i thought to be R1B is right (the color is just too tiny and vague. Maybe it is RxR1. If it is the case, still there is a turkish connection, turkey has K (western asia or eurasia haplogroup) too, and that would mean, there are also turkish genes in sumatra and borneo like philippines. I need to go back home and ask my tausug friends for DNA testing. I have always believed that their ancestry can be traced back to turkey since I got a turkish boyfriend years ago who just looked like my tausug cousin. hehehehe y-chromosome haplogroups |
so, what's your definition of old? as you said of my kris:
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turko. vikingo. lol, that's funny-o. |
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I just told you in archaelogy, the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is. if you are an antiquarian or antique collector, 1800 artifact is ancient. For anthropologists or historians ancient means centuries ago. Stop nitpicking. It was you who said turko was introduced by the spanish, and I refuted that idea since vikingo does not exist in our Lexicon. Bombay exists. It's because early Filipinos did meet early Indians, and there were indians living in cainta, rizal as early as mid 1700. As I studied Philippine languages, it seems that we don't have early names for foreigners our forefathers had not met. Vikingo is a case in point. Yes, I checked the DNA chart, Filipinos do not have any viking genes. By the way, I think the r1b I thought is actually rxr1 coming from the australian aborigines and cameroon, africa. It is explainable. We have negroid natives in the philippines such as aetas. Now why would Philippines sumatra, and borneo have a eurasian haplogroup? I think that's where the turkish ottomans enter the scene. |
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really? here's a Kris Espada dated 1899 http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/cbc7cbcb.jpg now, here's a Kalis Seko from the early 1800's http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...542cff46-1.jpg and a museum piece i was fortunate enough to study, a Kris Luma from late 1700's/early 1800's http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...57400f0c-1.jpg which is similar to one of our member's piece (VVV), and btw, with an Ivory pommel http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...haic+moro+kris seems to be that the older pieces are more intricate than the newer one in this case. care to explain? again, you haven't answered my question on how do you know the alleged smithsonian pictures were old by your definition? turko is spanish. spanish conquered philippines. how hard is that? |
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My wife is a Cebuano & speaks the dialect. I gave her Pigafetta's list of words, he recorded in Cebu & she found a fairly small % that she recognized. & I am sure you are knowledgeable of the different meanings of the same word in the different Philippine dialects. But if you hear someone, in their dialect, say "air con" or "computer" you don't have to understand their dialect to know what the word means or from where it is derived. |
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If I have to carbon-date krises these are the ones I am interested to work on in particular order. kris 1 kris 2 kris 3 kris 4 You said dated? What did you mean by that? Carbon-dated? Any dates etched or carved? If there are, are they Islamic or Christian dating? When you said dated, is it the date they were collected, put in the museum, sold, found or what? If you want to make sure of dates, you better use a technology. Now, in the absence of real recorded dates and scientific methods of dating, the rule in archeology regarding early tools, stone, wooden, and metal, applies-- from simple to complex. There are archaeological materials you can read online regarding the evolution of tools. In archaeological dating, in the absence of carbon-dating and physical indication of real dates-- historical accounts and artifacts are also used in association. For example: chinese ivory trade in prespanish and during the early spanish colonization was rampant among the native of palawan and other lumad areas. Hence, you cannot see an entire kris handle made of ivory. then in 19th century, europeans monopolized the ivory trade in the area of java, sumatra, and sulu. That's the reason too why javan elephants disappeared. I am still collecting data about sulu elephants and the role of a sulu sultan in (unknowingly) preserving extinct javan elephants that are said to be still existing in Borneo. Hence, the 19th century ivory "cockatoo" handle heads. They are not really cockatoos but images of sarimanok (mythical bird). Ottoman art has such bird motif. I believe it was the ottomans and arab missionaries who brought the Islamic image to sulu. There are just many things to consider. Next time you see a dated kris in a museum, ask the curator if it was the date the kris was collected or made. Most of the time, when tools are not carbon-dated, they won't put dates they were made but collected. |
Baganing, you are going to find it really difficult to find anyone who is willing to allow carbon dating on a kris since it involves destroying a small part of the object to do it. Carbon dating sheaths and hilts is pointless as these are commonly changed over years. While we do not have this scientific method to date these weapons we do have many clues that allow us to put the different styles and characteristics that we see into catagories of different eras based in part on blades of provenence. The kris that you link to on Artzi's site are all fairly accurately dated. Kris #1 shows all the characteristics of a mid to late 19th century kris. Kris #2 is a bit older, maybe around 1800 to mid 19th century. Kris #3 is in the "archaic" style and could be late 18th century. Keris #4 again appears to be of the 19th century variety. You might want to get a hold of Robert Cato's book Moro Sword for a better understanding of the clues that help us designate the approximate age on these blades.
"I just told you in archaelogy, the development of tools is from simple to complex. The more intricate it looks, the more recent it is." As Spunjer has pointed out this is obviously an inaccurate statement based on both his examples and the ones you have shown. To take it a step further, examine some of the post WWII blades which get even more simplistic in their design. As for Spunjer's kris, i have also handled it and can assure you that it is indeed real ivory. You will also see numerous "archaic" style kris that are at least from the 1700s with ivory pommels so i am sorry to say that your research is just plain wrong here as well. Ivory pommels have been used on some of the oldest known Moro kris. There was much early trade for materials like ivory in the Philippines and ivory can also be found locally from marine sources. Older kakatu pommels on kris tend to be rather diminutive compared to later styles so the very large piece of ivory that you get from elephants might not be necessary for these smaller pommels. Lastly, you can question why the word "vikingo" did not find it's way into to language, but i am afraid that it "proves" nothing. Perhaps it just wasn't pertinent enough. The Vikings made it to Spain, but i don't believe that they spent a lot of time pillaging there and they never had a conquering empire like the Ottomans. They also predate the Ottomans by a few centuries. The Turks, however, may have lingered in the Spanish memory and imagination for a longer period of time. :shrug: |
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Example: look at the Indus Valley civilization - very complex with complex artifacts in the 2nd millenium BC, but compare this to the 1st millenuim it looks like the appex of civilization. The same can also be said of the region of the Middle East around what is now Palestine over several periods where different peoples changed the level of complexity of artifacts (ie. after the arrival of the "Sea Peoples" or the arrival of Amorite tribes into the region). Thus a period of complexity in design or artifacts can be followed by a period of lower complexity (ie. the European "Dark Ages" after the fall of the Western Roman Empire). These kris may be older than you think and the use of ivory goes back millenia. |
there are just too many levels to consider in dating mindanaoan kris.
First, the people of mindanao is not homogenous in language, art, weaponry. social development, etc. so, the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula. It is possible that the samals were just starting to use simple Krises while maranaos known for their artistry already used the intricate ones or maybe the tausugs known for their warfare skills did not really care for the design of their krises but their functions and usability. Muslims in Mindanao are not a homogenous group. The social and technological development in each community also varries. So I cannot really say that the simple kris of samal made in 19th century and the intricate kris of maranao of 18th century disprove the validity of the simple-to-complex principle in archaeology. If we date krises according to communities, we will see that pattern-from simple to intricate. That's the problem with earlier krises, they were all known as moros. |
you still haven't answered my question, which is, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old?
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regarding ivory, yesterday you said: Quote:
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so which is it? or are you making this up as you go along? Quote:
well, got to go... |
Baganing, what i think you might find studying, let's say, just Sulu kris is that the dress (hilt forms and decoration) might get more complex as time progresses. We certainly see larger kakatus for instance. However, the blades themselves undoubtably get more simplistic over time. If you can show us otherwise with examples i would be both surprised and interested. :shrug:
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wha-? wait a minute..
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kris espada kalis tulid kris luma kris ranti kalis taluseko kris lanti kris seko kalis seko and that's just from cato's book... really gotta go now.. |
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Kris luma? Do you know what luma means? kris espada? Is that traditionally mindanaoan? Kris tulid? is it tul-id? mmmmmmmm can you check if those names of kalises and krises again existed or still exist in mindanao? They sound recent concoction to me. |
I'm not sure if it matters to you, but Spunjer is, like yourself, also a Filipino living in the USA. :shrug:
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regarding the dating of kalises: I am interested to make a survey of weaponry from written and oral sources taking into account the community that made and used them. I am interested to study the krises of tausugs separate from the maguindanaoans, maranaos, and samals. If we study them like that, we can truly find out how the krises developed, differed, and looked among the muslim communities in Mindanao. mixing all krises to make a one linear comparison does not make sense. In studying and dating krises, we have to consider the artistry of maranaos, the metal works of the maguindanaos, the pearl and ornaments of samals, and the turkish influences among the tausugs. Can you tell me if Cato did that? Did he present an ethnography of each muslim group so he can understand for instance the resources available in each community, the geography, the kind of art the people do, and the symbolisms they use. in dance for instance, Pangalay of sulu is different compared to the pangalays of maguindanao, maranao, and samal. That's just for the dance, how much more for complex issues? |
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Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words. |
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As for Cato, you should also do that for yourself as well. To date it is probably the best, if not only, book don't specifically on the subject. I am sure it is not perfect, but you would still find much to learn in it. :) |
imo, rule #1 in dating a Kris is, you will always find exceptions.
#2 older Kris are less then 20 inches & have tapered blade tips for stabbing where the older ones evolve to a slashing weapon. In general the older fall into that 16-19" range. Spunger posted some nice examples. The one from VVV is the oldest, interesting the quality control of craftsmanship on these. The Seko Kris either is an exception to rule #2 or in-fact may enforce it; evolving from stabbing to slashing. |
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Here is an example that i now own (previously owned by Battara and Spunjer) on a website put up by another of you fellow countrymen. If you navigate around this site i think you might also find quite a bit of useful information. :) http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aocollage.html |
mmmmm cato is one of his references.
Like that maguinadanaon kris should be dated in relation to the same krises known for their simple handles like that-- almost the same angular, clean design like t'boli swords sans bells. One does not have to wonder, geographically, tboli's and maguindanaos are neighbors. |
David, I did not know that you have that now. I loved that piece.....
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Yakan's krises tend to have etched designs using lines and dots. Samals' uses pearls and other embellishments such as precious shells. Kalagans' have simple wooden handles and they usually adorn their krises with hairs, vines, etc. Maguindanaos' have distinct handle design, so are the tausugs. I just think that Minadanaoan krises should be surveyed by groups. Mixing and dating them is like mixing and dating weapons of different Indian tribes in America. I don't also believe that Krises have traditional specific names. I don't know why Filipino weaponry researchers have coined names to call filipinio swords. If an english speaking maranao datu says his kris is a regalia kris, I don't think he means the name of his kris is "regalia." There are muslims in Davao for instance who showed me "tul-id nga kris." that doen't mean that the name of that kris is tul-id. Tul-id means straight. They only mean that they have straight krises. Naming Filipino weaponry specially among collectors and dealers is really problematic. I still see people saying itak sword or daga knife. That's just overkill. |
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Can you show us an example of these shorter Maranaos regalia kris? It should be noted that regalia by nature is generally passed down through many generation and while dress might be changed and updated these shorter swords you have "seen" might very well be much older kris there by fall right in step with the general point Bill was indeed making. Quote:
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But these other names we are using are merely descriptive names that determine both the profile (dhapur in Indonesia) of the blade and the origin, since these descriptive terms are specific to certain group's dialects. To say "Kalis Tulid" then not only descibes the kris as a straight blade, but also as one coming from the Tausug people. It is not the same at all as saying "daga knife" which is just redundant. It is a way of classifying a kris so that we as collectors get an immediate understanding of what shape and from what area the kris comes. Perhaps you didn't find your way to this page on Federico's site: http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aponsmain.html Or this one where he describes the different parts of the kris in 3 major dialects. :) http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...o/diagram.html BTW, you seem suspicious that Cato is one of Federico's references. I find it difficult to understand how anyone who has spent as much time as you obviously have studying the kris would not have come across Cato's book before. As i pointed out before, it might be flawed in places, but it is to my knowledge the only book published (at least in English) on the subject, so you probably would have found it quoted numerous times in your research. You might also note that Federico also uses many other references in his research for his site: http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...liography.html |
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can you tell me your source for this? and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris? |
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On surveying by groups. You said everyone knows that it should be that way, but there are still people like spunjer, who thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same. Even their clothing and manner of dressing are not homogenous. maranao kris |
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You asked this very obvious question:
"can you tell me your source for this? and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris?" Ignorance about kris? ha? are you blind? read my post well. I'm even into genetic evidences already and you accused me of ignorance? mmmmm... let the readers judge. I don't even know if you have met yakans, kalagans, and samals. yes, they are muslims too. I won't wonder because you are ilonggo gid. |
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but please, let's stick to the topic at hand: can you tell me your source for the statement you made in which you said:
also, please back up your accusations about me stating that "thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same". otherwise, you're just exposing your (lack of) knowledge and as i've mentioned earlier, ignorance in the subject matter. yes, i've read your posts, and it's not making a lick of sense. really. |
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There is one over sized keris (especially on the dress side) on that wall. Over-sized, very showy dress is common for these ritual regalia kris. Can you tell me, have you read any of the reference books on Federico's list? :shrug: |
I did years of fieldwork in mindanao. I won't spoon-feed you with data. if you
check I only share tidbits. wait for my book. Not making any sense? I can't blame you. you are used to unfounded, baseless conventions. down to my level? mmmm I don't know you are up there? Time to ignore you. Do your own research. Don't be bookish. I even ask my tausug friends to take genetic testing because I want to go deeper not just superficial stuff. Don't blame me for your ignorance. I am just sharing what I have been doing not the full study or result, so people serious in researching mindanaoan weaponry will also conduct parallel research. There is nothing wrong in sharing seminal ideas, but for someone to nitpick because they stick to false conventions, then that is wrong. spend time in muslim mindanao first, then you will be enlightened. I did. You won't know much about muslim weaponry in Marbel or Mlang. |
I don't know it it will help anyone with their research but Project Gutenburg has all 55 volumes of "The Philippine Islands, 1493-1803". Its described as detailing Explorations by Early Navigators, Descriptions of the Islands and Their Peoples, Their History and Records of the Catholic Missions, as Related in Contemporaneous Books and Manuscripts, Showing the Political, Economic, Commercial and Religious Conditions of Those Islands from Their Earliest Relations with European Nations to the Beginning of the Nineteenth Century I don't know if any of these will have descriptions of the kris you are discussing here or not. And as with most records written by explorers you have to interpret them in light of the time and bias of the people
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as i said, maranao kris used as a regalia is shorter, so length should not be used in dating. I saw maranao krises like that in Marawi. There are still smiths today in lanao who make short krises with that kind of handle. |
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