Here is a drawing from a picture of Sultan Abdullah and chiefs of Perak from 1878.
I have also seen the original picture taken and this drawing is resembling in details.

Michael

Hi Bill, a few ideas about the mystery
 

Hi Bill,

A nice unusual item with honest patina to the VOC blade.

I have been following this thread from the start when you told me of this unusual blade you had acquired. I thought it about time to throw my 2 cents worth into the ring.

Have a look at the 9th and 10th images you originally posted and where the hole is, what I see shows indications of metal being present over the top of the original blade once, the shape left on the blade much the same as one would see on a Pata, Khanda or Feranghi.

As European blades did find their way into these weapons, in my eyes, other than the Dutch trade routes, these blades could well have found their way into current existence through the acquisition of Indian weapons from the Indian mainland as Hindu heritage is found all through out the Indonesian Archipelago.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=indian+sword

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=indian+sword

regards

Gav

Someone recently suggested this might have been made for a boy?

Why???

I am curious if there is any other reason than the size?
In this case the size shouldn't be relevant as it's made from a keris.

Michael

I don't really think the kris was made for a boy, just offering a possibility.

The comment was basically about the size. Depends on whether you consider this essentially a Moro piece -- that would usually be larger, or Peninsular, that would normally be this size or even smaller.

I think that some of the diminutive Moro weapons were made smaller for youths.

FI here is a barong with an 11" blade (28cm). Probably made for a youth. Late 1800s, Sulu.

I may soon have an answer to the date on this piece. As you can see the first two digits are obscured by the sosoran that was welded to the blade. Since the VOC ended in 1800, the date is probably 1746, but if I am very lucky, it could be as old as 1646.

I have a friend who has access to a metallurgical x-ray. He is going to do full xrays on this piece and tell me the date. He is also going to xray the hilt. This will give us more clues as to how it was constructed.

Got to work this into his schedule, so I don't know how soon I can post pictures.

FWIW my friend says he can xray steel more easily than copper. He usually deals with Dong Song culture bronze pieces that can be 800 bc or earlier. These are more difficult to xray.

Forgot to post outcome of the metallurgical x-ray. Looks like 1646, but fuzzy. Second digit is more like a 6 or an 8 than a 7.

Seems the "R" has to do with Rotterdam if that helps place the age? :shrug:

An interesting keris or kris or voc or peninsular?

Bill, i'm not sure why you resurrected this thread here in Ethno as well as posting it on the keris forum. Some may disagree, but for my money this is a Malay Sundang, not a Moro kris, and despite the use of an old VOC sword tip in its creation it is still a keris. This may not deter people from discussing it here, but it seem much more appropriate to the Keris Forum IMHO.

I did not know how to resurrect to the Keris Forum. So I posted it here and then started over in the Keris Forum.

There are quite a few informative comments in this original post. As I mentioned that I had originally posted in the Ethno Forum because there, at that time as the Keris Forum had not been yet conceived.

I am happy for me to redo into the Keris Forum, or resolve the redundancy while keeping the original post with the 40-something comments.

Please let me know how to do this or please I would be happy if you could do so.

An Indonesian friend has commented,

This is an alang bahari kapit in sundang /kalis style and hilt,,,
Hybrid ,,, Might be from reteh riau near sumatera where the tempasok, balanging, irranoon and sug settled down after the came after the demise of raja haji in teluk ketapang 1786 ,,,The dhapor is perfict ly ,,,,alang /bahari/bengkinang ,

I don't understand most of the language and someone could interpret this?

Well, i could relocate this thread to the keris forum, but that would create a redundancy with the thread you have now stated there. I could also combine the two threads into one or we can simply place a link to the thread in the Keris Forum to this one. I will discuss with Rick what he thinks is best.
Just an FYI though, the Keris Forum had been in place for two years when you posted this in the Ethno Forum. We probably should have switched it to Keris back then, but i think we had had far less discussion on Malay Sundang back then and didn't quite know what to make of this one. ;)

Thank you David, I have tried to bring this post into the Keris. There had not been any comments. I just reposted with a link to the original post.

Would appreciate the last few comments about reposting so as not to confuse.

Bill, since i am fairly certain that this keris sundang has Malay origins i have transferred this thread to the Keris Forum and deleted your two redundant posts.

Hello Bill,

Sorry, I don't know how I managed to miss your posting back in 2010!


Could you please try to post scans of the x-ray images? Would like to have a look at the digits as well as search for possible additional marks.

1646 would indeed be quite an early VOC blade and allow for enough time to disperse throughout the archipelago and eventually get recycled as part of this k(e)ris! ;)

The Rotterdam mark won't help to corroborate age since its trade chamber participated in the VOC from the very beginning. It's role increased with time (this won't allow any reliable inferences though).

Regards,
Kai

Hello Bill,

If you compare the grip area with that of the full-size Moro kris (pic in post #2), there's hardly any difference. Thus, I'd believe this piece was meant for an adult, too.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Bill,

Just some quick comments:

Blade in keris anak alang and keris bahari style with keris sundang fittings (hilt/clamps).


There were Moro settlements/colonies in the Riau archipelago (East of Sumatra).
[sug = Tausug, etc.]


Historical reference: the VOC defeated Raja Haji at Teluk Ketapang in 1786.


Keris panjang, keris anak alang, and keris bahari share a common blade style which gets collectively called after the town Bangkinang (traditional production center on Sumatra).

Regards,
Kai

Kai, thank you very much with your explanations! Always a pleasure!