Although the English language can be an incredibly difficult language to use correctly, one of the great advantages of this language is that it is extremely flexible, and there are many forms and levels of expression within the language that can be acceptable . Most professions and trades have their own use for English words, and these trade usages very often are incorrect when measured by the meanings accepted in Standard English, which is the form of the English Language regarded as the norm for an educated person.

I think we can accept that within the silversmithing craft, Tim's use of repousse, and repoussage is inarguably accurate.

However, that accuracy of usage does not carry over into Standard English.

Yes, it is true that a living language develops and changes structure and meaning over time. Equally it is true that the various colloquial forms of the English Language vary from the Standard form of the language. However, since we are not all members of the silversmithing craft, and since there are defined and accurate terms available to describe this work under discussion, perhaps it might be advisable to use these Standard English terms in order to avoid confusion.

(Standard English:- "Standard English is that set of grammatical and lexical forms which is typically used in speech and writing by educated native speakers. It includes the use of colloquial and slang vocabulary, as well as swear words and taboo expressions."---Trudgill)

Within Standard English, the meanings of repousse (repoussage) and chasing are still current, and as I have given them.It not archaic usage, nor is it even slightly dated usage. It is correct usage for any educated person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repouss%C3%A9_and_chasing

All I can add is that my colleagues and I employ "chasers" chaps that cut details into work. These craftspeople can create incredible effects and textures to the metal surface. Like making textures of clothing, hair and cutting some of the most sensitive of detail not just in a by numbers fashion. As I said earlier I an not an expert.

Completely OT - what is your new avatar, Tim? It looks like a Paleolithic mother goddess figurine.

Tim, beyond the subject of what is "more correct" or not in the case of this term, which is a subject of controversy, I thank you for making me understanding why the term is used idistinctly in both cases. I find that your explanation is a good and valid answer to my original question. As I said, you gave me an enlightment about another element of your languaje which I did not understand and always gave me a problem when I read it, as in the comments about Fernando´s badek silversmithing work. Very kind of you making this effort to explain.
My best regards

Gonzalo

Mark you are on the right track. The avatar is a carved whale bone scapula} fan with the image of Dilukai from the Caroline islands most probably Belau/Palau. A prestige mans artifact. Whales also have spiritual significant as do artifacts made from there bones. This link gives some good in formation, scroll down to "Art"
http://ps.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%BE%...84%D8%A7%D9%88

It is one of if not the most treasured item I have. Lew gave us a glimpse of her virtue in this thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6163

Here is more. You have to admit its a bit nice. :cool:

Feeling a bit dizzy within such vast universe of considerations, let me post here some loose notes, not without apologizing for their percentage of nonsense :o .
... Certainly the channel of comunication here is in english but, as we all understand, the diverse senses of its interpretation are less vital than the intrinsecal subject under apreciation, which certainly is not a ( english ) language dissection but how the object, in this case a badik scabbard, was produced, whether in an Asian or Western dialect, as long as mutual understanding may be achieved ... beyond academic, technical or current terminology.
... "Repoussé", from "repoussage", is a galicism; among other reasons, this means that the term was borrowed from french language speakers. Its use was probably preferred in other languages because either it has achieved a certain charisma or its translation would not be faithfull to the action in question, or the like.
... If we consider the strict translation of the term, we will have "re-pushed", right ? But while (at least) in coloquial French (and Portuguese) "pushing" and "pulling" are quite distinguishable, both dictionaries expand the possibility of, contextualy, "pushing" meaning also "pulling" ... for what matters.
... It could also happen that, while the discussed "repoussé" signification diverts or expands in certain languages, it remains with its strict original meaning in other/s ... not minding if this happens in its native language or in other. This to say that, while for the French (for example) could still only mean punched ( or stretched) by the converse side, for the British or Mexicans could already refer to punch from both sides of the material.
... It apears that "repoussé" is not much used in Portuguese, except maybe for some bourgeois, for whom galicisms are (still) rafineé; "repuxado", and sometimes "puxado" is what is largely used here, "puxado" being more on the verbal side.
... I have shown this badik to a local jewelery shop owner; he reckons that the work was done from the inside, with also some detail by the outside.
He added that the term "repuxado" is now currently called "estampado" (stamped), probably because nowadays these works are mechanicaly made. However he is not a smith, for what counts.
... On the other hand, i guess that the distinction in the term/s atribution by either technicians and laymen is not so just "black and white"; through time, technicians were (some still are) empirical craftsmen and not "educated" persons, giving the action their own version of the term, or the term their own meaning . Is it not due to the frequent "corruption" of the terms by "non educated" people that linguistic conventions end up officializing them and include them in the dictionaries?
... Let me stop, before you through your wrath versus my ignorance :eek: .

I have read that it was already practised in the bronze age, and that has reached a notable perfection during Renaissance, so as later the Dutch works in the XVII century.

I cannot see how the Dutch renaissance can be any more perfect than these ancient examples. Without including India, China and other parts of the far east.
First picture gold from Thrace. The second the Scythians. The thrid Peru. We could be loosing sight of the actual weapon which is quite pretty.

I agree with you, Tim. I find the scytian work specially good. Their mastery over this technique is incredible.

Fernando, I really see no problem with terminology at all.

Tim has given us the meanings of the terms, as they are used in the trade.

Gonzalo has reinforced Tim's explanation with a further trade reference.

I have given the meanings as they would be understood by an educated native English speaker who is not a silversmith or jeweller.

The link I provided in an earlier post sets out a very clear explanation:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repouss%C3%A9_and_chasing

In common usage, I believe most native English speakers would refer to the work as "embossed". Although not strictly correct, this is completely acceptable, and incidentally comes close to your "stamped" meaning. Modern English grammar is concerned more with the way in which words are generally used, than with strict dictionary meanings.

However, what is of interest here is the opinion of your jeweller consultant that this work was done from the inside of the scabbard.

To my knowledge, the skill to create this motif from the inside of the scabbard has never existed in Jawa, nor in Indonesia. I am very familiar with this type of work, and it is done from the outside, after the scabbard has been fabricated. Tim, who is a skilled craftsman in this work, seems to be also of the opinion that it has been done from the outside.

I agree with this. :)

Absolutely Alan,
As i said, the guy is not a smith.
I can further say that, if i had to choose an option, i would obviously follow your exposition which, above all, is backed by experienced observation.
But i confess that, having been self influenced by the "repousse" aproach done by the various ( four?) members, and so having been "arrested" by the projection of the term, i was predisposed to easily beleive the guy when he said that the punching on the discussed scabbard was done ( at least partially) from the inside. To tell the truth, i still look at it and still don't reject such idea :shrug: .
Wasn't it Jesus thas said: the worst blind is the one that doesn't want to see?

I was only quoting what is written, more to emphasize how old this craft is and the splendour it later achieved, and not wanting to mind any judgement of value. Besides, electing the best of anything in the world is allways naturally discussable :shrug: .
The pictures attached are of the famous Goa gold(en) helmet, an Indo Portuguese creation of the XVI century. It has (also) been exhibited in the Great India Exhibition, in the New York Metropolitan Museum, making part of the best four hundred art works from India. It ( supposedly) is the oldest representation of a hunting scene with firearms. A (Portuguese) hunter can be seen aiming at flying birds, with one falling after being shot.
The outer part of this helmet is in rather thick gold sheet, but the interior is "puxado" from one only piece of copper.
In this specific case, the term "puxado", which could be translated as "pushed" or "poussé", was used by a highly educated person.
I hope this piece is nice enough to deserve your apreciation :o .
Fernando

Hhmmm, its okay figures could be more defined, not sure it fits in my collection, how much do you want for it? they are quite common. :D :D :cool:

Gonzalo, i think that you missed the point of my post. Afterall, who am i to argue with Oxford, the American College dictionary and Wikipedia.
:)
I was merely pointing out that the source you used, Herbert Maryon, an Englishman apparently of some repute, does not seen to support your conclusion at least not in the quoted passage. This is not to say that your conclusion is wrong, i just didn't understand why you were using his quote to try to support it.
Personally i am willing to go with what ever definition gets me properly understood as that is always the bottom line. :)

Agreed 100% David.

The function of words is to move an idea from one person to another person.

Most reasonable people will adjust their language so that they are understood by the person with whom they are currently in discussion. As an example, it would be a waste of time for somebody who is bilingual to use , say, Italian, in a discussion with a native English speaker. Similarly it is a waste of time to speak to a boundary rider from Bourke in the same language that one uses to speak to the chairman of the board, again, one does not use exactly the same form of language to speak to the chairman of the board, as one would use with one's 14 year old son.

Reasonable people usually adjust their language so that they can be understood.

We know the various ways in which to refer to this type of work.

I would suggest that it now perfectly reasonable to use any of the terms.

However, in the case of the badik scabbard, if we use "repousse" perhaps we might need to qualify that word by the addition of "anterior" , or "obverse", or some other term denoting that the work was done from the front, as distinct from the back. This would then mean that we could describe repousse done from the back of the material as "posterior" repousse.

It doesn't really matter what terms are used to describe this work, provided that a clear understanding of meaning is achieved.

David, I dind´t want to offend, or otherwise to post off-topic. My interpretation of what Mayron wanted to say with "strictly speaking" (strictu sensu) decided me to use that quote, but I agree with A. G. Maisey in the above comment, as the use of the other meaning implies more than two senses for this word (which is not desirable), and there is the need to specify. All this began because I wanted to say that the silversmithing work was not made from inside or backside of the scabbard, but from the front. All this subjects related to the work made in the swords are a motive of passion for me and I like to discuss them in deep, though this is not anything personal or a motive of anger. This information is also useful for me to make my silversmithing and bladesmithing work. Thank you.

Completely understood Gonzalo, no offense taken. :)

dear fernando

allow me to introduce myself. My name is Dana, an edge weaponry enthusiast from Indonesia. I learn by asking several academician and Indonesian collectors...being a 9 to 5 office worker that i am, my information is limited.

Fernando, indeed, a very beautiful badik you have there.

first, i would like to share my very limited knowledge about Indo-Melayu edge weaponry.

Badik originated from the Makassar, Bugis and Mandar ethnic tribe from Sulawesi and Palembang ethnic tribes in Sumatera. As seafarers tribes, their badik's also travels along, hence we found the "badek" in Malaysia and Thailand.


There are two types of badik, indicated from its pamor, warangka or sheath. Badik saroso had pamor with gold or silver sheath sometimes also decorated with gems, while badik pateha had no pamor with soft wood for its sheath.

Im guessing that your badik saroso is made around 17-18th century, once belonged to a "cultured" or high-positioned person, a royalty or a chief.

I can say that not because of the beautiful silver mountings, but from the pamor of the badik. At that time, it is very unlikely that an average joe may possess a pamor weaponry.

Your badik is not for fighting (several times maybe...) but for ceremonial purposes, wore at the front side of the clothing ceremonies. (like having a very beautiful hand-made tie wore in special occasions from a westerners point of view) like weddings, or peace-pact agreements. That may help explains the intricate silver decorations, to show social rank of the owner.

For the beautiful silver sheath, is it original or added some other time later ? (again, im guessing that the silver is original) what kind of wood is it ? analyzing the type of wood may held detect the specific region of the badik itself.

You may try to lightly tap the badik with wood or other metal. check how it sound. High frequency would indicate a high steel composition.

Cant tell you anymore info. sometimes we just have to hold it to feel how its made..right ?

additional info on badik :

several site mentioned a badik originated from java. This is partly true. There are badik from jawa.

The story goes that during the Jawa War or Prince Diponegoro War 1825-1830 (arguably the biggest and most expensive war ever fought by the dutch to conquer Prince Diponegoro) many bugis troops voluntarily travel to Jawaassisting Prince Diponegoro against the dutch. Surely, they bring along their badiks.

In Jawaa, the javanese weaponsmith then reproduced the bugis troops badiks and swords, with a Jawanese "aura".

my friend is very lucky to have found this Jawanese made badik. i'll ask him the picture later on.

overall, a very beautiful badik. Please take a good care of it...its my national heirloom :) :) :) im sure its in good hand :D :D :D

thats my 2 cents...
sorry if my info is false or inaccurate.

cheers fernando

R. Yudhi Pradhana Prawiradirja
beraswutah.blogspot.com

Some of you members might remember this one. This is about the largest piece that I have ever seen. The blade is about one foor long. The grip is marine ivory.

Hi Dana
Thank you very much indeed for your input.
Your mentioning that this is a nice piece is an added value, coming from an Indonesian :) .
I have added to my collection files the extra info you posted, that i was not yet aware of.
Fernando.