There is a definite similarity. :eek:

Certainly looks like a hanged neck. Well done David. That would be part of the story. It appears we have a collection of themed daggers-

Hunch back of Notre Dame
Dante's Inferno
Last of the Mohicans

satanic anyone :shrug:

Good one Katana, Perhaps that means its a depiction of the ghost of Esmerelda then?


I think you might need to look further afield than Dantes Inferno Tim, Before totaly dismissing a Satanic theme? unless owls & strangulation of skeletons feature in it?

As the Esmerelda knife shows, most things seem clearly represented even if despite Katana efforts a few pieces of the jigsaw are still missing.

http://www.baltimoreknife.com/images...icdagger3a.JPG


http://www.baltimoreknife.com/images...icdagger6a.JPG



Spiral

Move along, please, chaps. Nothing to see here...

I am hoping the moderators will allow this thread to continue, though it may be of less interest to some, I find it quite interesting. Perhaps ideas here will spark renewed interest in the symbols of weapons in other genres, like the "Maker's Marks" thread.

Katana. Excellent work on the position of Esmeralda's head.


Sparknotes on the Notre Dame Cathedral:

....... "the beautiful specimens of architecture that remain, especially the three porches with their pointed arches, leading up to a "vast symphony of stone."

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/b...s7Medium-1.jpg


Further study reflects earlier remarks that Notre Dame was a central character as the original French title was "Notre Dame de Paris."

TNT Educator notes: "Understanding the cathedral is fundamental to understanding Victor Hugo's The Hunchback of Notre Dame. (In fact, Hugo devoted an entire book to a description of the cathedral and its role as the center of medieval Paris.) The original French title of the novel, Notre Dame de Paris, reflected this centrality. The English translation chose to de-emphasize the role of the building by changing the title to The Hunchback of Notre Dame. The TNT move, The Hunchback, removes the cathedral from the title altogether. In all its various tellings, however, the cathedral is central not only to the story's setting but to its theme as well."

Acording to this I am bound for the second level of hell suffering torments similar to the Dante dagger. :cool:
http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv

Hi Bill,
Assuming the orientation of the tiles is deliberate, there could be an explanation....but only based on conjecture.

Throughout the ages, man has viewed 'weather' as an act of God or the Gods. Ever since arable farming, the weather affected the crops....creating 'bumper' harvest .... or a state of famine and starvation. The weather litrally was a matter of 'life or death' and as man has no control of this, it was considered 'devine intervention. Even today, extreme weather damage is considered an 'act of God' in many Insurance policies.

The roof of a building has always been seen as a 'protective' symbol, a shelter from the 'elements'. The overlapping tiles allow 'water run off' however with the tiles upside down ....water would flow into the building ... in effect the tiles would be useless in their 'protection'.




"..........One of the great dramatic moments in Victor Hugo’s novel Notre-Dame de Paris comes when Quasimodo snatches the gypsy Esmeralda from the hands of her would-be executioners and escapes with her into the great church of Notre-Dame:
‘The people, fond of daring deeds, followed him with their eyes through the dark nave, regretting that he had so quickly withdrawn himself from their acclamations. Suddenly he was seen again at one end of the gallery of the kings of France. He ran along it like a frenzied person, lifting his prize in his arms and shouting, “Sanctuary!” The crowd again burst forth with applause. When he had crossed the gallery, he plunged again into the interior of the church. A minute later, he reappeared on the upper platform, still carrying the gypsy in his arms, still running madly along, still crying, “Sanctuary!” And the crowd applauded again. At last he made a third appearance atop the tower of the great bell. There he seemed to show proudly to the whole city her whom he had saved, and his thundering voice, that voice which was heard so rarely, and which he had never heard, repeated three times with frenzy, even to the clouds, “Sanctuary! Sanctuary! Sanctuary!”’(1)
This moment is equally striking in the best-known film adaptation of the story, The Hunchback of Notre Dame (1939) starring Charles Laughton.(2)


What was ‘sanctuary’ and why was it held inviolable? In ancient Egypt the temples of Osiris and Amon offered the right of sanctuary. In ancient Greece all temples enjoyed this privilege, and certain of them, like the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, were known throughout the Mediterranean as a haven for fugitives. In ancient Rome, sanctuary was often sought by runaway slaves.

Emperor Constantine I is said to have given Christian churches the right of sanctuary. Asylum was originally confined to the church itself, but later its limits were extended to include the precincts and occasionally a larger area marked by ‘sanctuary crosses’. In England in Norman times there were two kinds of sanctuary, one belonging to every church by prescription and the other by special royal charter. The latter was considered much safer. A fugitive convicted of a felony and taking sanctuary was afforded protection from 30 to 40 days, after which he had to leave the kingdom and take an oath not to return without the king’s permission.

During the Middle Ages, the period in which Notre-Dame de Paris is set, sanctuary served as a refuge for persons fleeing from violence or the penalties of the law. To injure a person in sanctuary or to remove him or her forcibly was considered sacrilegious. Violations were punishable by fines or excommunication. In some cases there was a stone seat within the church, called the ‘frith-stool’, which the seeker of sanctuary had to reach in order to establish a claim to protection. More commonly, there was a large ring or knocker on the church door, holding on to which gave the right of asylum....."



On that basis, it could mean that 'Notre Dame' was unable to protect Esmeralda when she sought sanctuary within its walls ........as the Court of Parliament later voted to strip her of her sanctuary and send her to the gallows , removing her by force (which would have been considered sacrilegious)
She escapes Notre Dame ......but is later captured and hung.


Another possibility is that the tiles are a 'device' to show that the 'church' on the scabbard ...should indeed be viewed as upside down :eek:

1. Which could be symbollic of Esmeralda in opposition to the seemily corrupt establishment of the church (clergy)

2. That the conception of the knife was 'anti church' / anti Catholism

3. Or , dare I say it.....possibly 'satanic'

I am sure there are a number of other possibillities or explainations, and I am assuming that the tile 'orientation' was deliberate.....but, equally it could have been a 'silly' mistake.

Regards David

There are 9 levels. Number 2 is for the Lustfull :o
http://web.eku.edu/flash/inferno/

SORRY COULDN'T RESIST THIS :o ...a little light relief


"Chaz says ......these new washboard's are so much better ...than the ones my ancestor's had to use"

:D :D ;) :rolleyes:


Regards David

This is good.
http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/utopia/index2.html

Now seriously...

What is the definition of a true Satanic Dagger ? AFAIK... I suppose the only true answer is a dagger that has been used in a satanic rite.
Although this is regarding Sikh weapons the analogy is the same....


Has there ever been provenance with any examples of 'Satanic Dagger' to support its use and history ?

Many of the 'motifs' and designs on Satanic daggers are easily recognisable as symbolising 'death'. Isn't that what a dagger is for.....to stab and kill. Surely all functional edged weapons where designed to take life?

Couldn't a dagger decorated with skulls, skeletons, demons etc just mean.... with this knife I can take your life and send you, my enemy, to hell :shrug: Bearing in mind many old churches, graveyards and many works of Art also, carries the symbolism of skull, demons etc in their architecture, gravestones, statues and paintings (and are not satanic.)

Death, 'the great adventure' is a reminder of our mortality, the circle of life 'completed'. The life expecancy of our ancestors were much less than ours, death was expected around 'each corner', to cope....our ancestors faced 'death' head on, it seems that they, to diminish the fear, embraced 'death' as the 'ultimate truth' but had religion that could redeem them so, they could live in the 'after life' whether that be Valhalla or Heaven or the Elysian Fields.

"To die will be an awfully big adventure." Peter Pan (JM Barrie)

Like collections. Most probably these 19th century nic-nak letter opener daggers were made for a category of Victorian society that needed to show how literate and informed they thought they were rather than experiencing anything like the reality of a classics university education. Which reminds me of the Daily Mail Sunday supplement and the Franklin Mint. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Ding ding ding !
We have a Winner !! ;) :D

And I though it was the sound of one hand clapping! :rolleyes: :D

spiral

Gee, I thought it was the sound of no hands clapping. ;) :D ;)

:eek: :eek: I just want you to know that all those years I spent riding herd on this board have made me this way ... :p :D

I post this series of pictures to show the eye technique on small faces and to show that I do not BS when talking about carving. I finished this today not my sort of thing but I know I will be able to sell it. I will remove then latter. I do not stick pins in them either.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../DANCER001.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../DANCER002.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../DANCER005.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../DANCER006.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4.../DANCER008.jpg

Tim, That craftsmanship is truly superb. What will it be cast in? Silver?

I have seen some of your sword work and it is outstanding also.

I am sure the other members would like to see what you can post.

You could make a hell-a-cious Satanic dagger! ;) :D ;)

Very nice work, Tim. :cool:

A very Zen comment, Spiral.

http://www.io.com/~snewton/zen/onehand.html

Indeed Andrew, but I meant it for Tims likely interpritation! :D

Nice work indeed Tim, it would be good to see the finnished work. I am sure you could get good sales if you made some Satanic themed pieces or even pretty figural ones to be sold in the Daily mail suplement!

Actualy Ive rather wondered if this one might be a skilled reproduction, with an old blade?

http://www.baltimoreknife.com/images...icdagger3a.JPG


Spiral

Its that one hand clapper again. I would rather just go to sleep and forget the whole ugly thing.

Sleep well........

Spiral

:D I'm dreaming of a satanic Christmas :D :D :D :D

I'd prefer not to lock this thread. Let's move on, gentlemen.

Any further comments should be about the subject knife. Or delivered via PM. :shrug:

This recently ended on eBay........... satan + dagger = ££$£$£

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=014

Not so certain it is satanic :shrug: but other than the skull on the pommel, 'outwardly' it looks more like a hunting dirk. Most of the 'possible' satanic symbollism is on the blade.......'hidden' when the knife is 'sheathed'.

Yeah, i think this is generally the case. Call something "satanic" and suddenly a whole bunch of people are willing to pay over the top prices.
This dagger seems to have some occult, or at least mythological themes to it which is not at all surprising for the time period. Consider the themes being explored by the pre-Raphaelite movement during this era. The Green Man, mythological creatures, etc. are all quite common in their palette with no practicing satanic references intended.

After very brief research one has to ask, do scenes of damnation have anything to do with "satanists" cosmology especially as true satanism is largely a 20th century concept ? :shrug:

I realy dont know Tim but while researching the Esmerelda dagger I came across the French book La-bas by J. K. Huysmans published in 1891 which certanly seemed to feature Satanism.

My questian re could the the strangled skelton casting be modern work was a genuine one. I think it could be, but dont have the knowledge of sculpture you do.

I think I detect a modern air to the mans/demons appearance though.

Spiral

With the tragic loss of Notre Dame Cathedral with especially the loss of the iconic Spire reminded me of this dagger I got from Spiral. It is one of my very favorite pieces and thank Johnathan again for letting me acquire from him.

Anne and I both cried when the Spire fell in flames.

Notre Dame is a profound loss for France and the entire world.

Good call Bill in bringing this one back. I am still in disbelief this happened, and I don't think many can say tears did not come as something so iconic was seen in flames.
I know it will be restored, but the loss of so much venerated and sacred structure within as well as the loss of the spire will ever be missed.

Just heard a news broadcast a few minutes ago, the current take on this historic tragedy is that the fire was accidental, Ironically it can then be classified as an act of God. Hopefully, it will be rebuilt in the same ways that have lasted all these centuries. With added sprinklers.

The “ iconic spire” was built by the infamous Viollet-le- Duc in the 1860’s. He installed statues of 12 apostles , 11 of whom had their backs toward the spire. The only one , St. Thomas, facing the spire was his own self-portrait.

There are very few truly old architectural memorials that were not destroyed/rebuilt several times and we still admire them as originals.

The entire City of Warsaw was leveled by the Germans in 1944-5, the Gur Emir ( Tamerlan’s mausoleum in Samarkand) had it’s lost wings rebuilt, the Imperial Palace in Budapest was destroyed by the Ottomans, by 5 sieges by Hapsburgs, the Austrians during Hungarian Revolution of 1848, the Russians in 1944 and again by the same Russians in 1956 ( another Hungarian Revolution) . Each time it was rebuilt according to old plans. Al Aksa in Jerusalem was rebuilt twice after earthquakes and restored after a major fire in 1969 when a schizophrenic Australian evangelical decided to hasten the Judgement Day.

With plenty of money and modern engineering the Notre Dame will look 100% authentic in no time. Fifty years from now its visitors will admire “genuine Gothic architecture” :-)

Thanks for the additional info on this iconic cathedral. I was looking into more on it myself, realizing just how much I had always taken for granted that it was always there. It is wonderful poignantly that virtually people from all parts of the world, even outside the Catholic Faith, are all together in mourning the severe damage to this structure.

Apparently, Notre Dame was even suffering decay at the time Victor Hugo wrote his epic novel in 1831, which he duly noted. There were restorations attempted in 1844 as well as numerous times over the years. It is ironic that the very efforts to restore and strengthen this monument caused this terrible event, but this has brought a tremendous solidarity in bringing Notre Dame back to its venerable glory, and even stronger than ever.

It continues its very purpose, its inspiration, even damaged, giving people everywhere hope, faith and strength.

For me, the most poignant moment was an old man living next to Notre Dame, who was crying: his 3 children and a score of grandkids were all baptized there.

For us, ND is an architectural marvel, for the Parisians it is a hallmark of the city, but for him it is his church where he prayed since childhood.

May he merit praying there again.

some more history about Notre Dame, going back to 1431.

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war...rhistoryonline


BTW I highly recommend this site, https://www.warhistoryonline.com/ Great articles and many about ancient history regarding ethnographic weapons.