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MANY GROUPS WOULD CONSIDER PEOPLE WHO COLLECT EDGED WEAPONS AS KOOKS. THE ANTI WEAPON GROUPS WOULD PROBABLY CONSIDER ANY SUCH PEOPLE DANGEROUS FOR POSESSING OR TRAINING WITH ANY TYPE OF WEAPON. WEAPON COLLECTING OF ANY TYPE MAY BE POLITICALLY INCORRECT ACCORDING TO CERTIAN LIBRAL GROUPS, THERE SEEM TO BE GROUPS WHO PROTEST AGAINST EVERYTHING COLLECTING AND OTHERWISE.
FORTUNATELY THESE PEOPLE ARE SELDOM ENCOUNTERED AND USUALLY APPEAR ONLY IN THE MEDIA AND NOT TOO OFTEN THERE. I DON'T CONSIDER THESE FOLKS AS IMPORTANT AND ONE MANS KOOK IS ANOTHERS SCHOLAR, TEACHER AND CONNISUR ;) . TO EACH HIS OWN BE IT RENISANCE FAIR, STAR TRECK CONVENTION, OPERA OR THE FORUM GATHERING IN TIMONIUM (ALAS I CAN'T MAKE IT THIS YEAR :( ) I HAVE NEVER BEEN A CONFORMIST AND FOLLOW MY INTERESTS AS I PLEASE EVEN IF THEY ARE OUTSIDE OF WHAT A FELLOW FROM THE SOUTH WEST SHOULD. FOR EXAMPLE SPORTS, FISHING AND HUNTING, TOOLS, CARS, MACHINES AND GIRLS I AM INTERESTED IN ALL THESE THINGS ALSO BUT DON'T LIMIT MYSELF TO THEM. FRIENDS AND FAMILY HAVE SOMETIMES THOUGHT I SPEND TOO MUCH MONEY ON OFFBEAT THINGS LIKE FORIGN TRAVEL AND COLLECTING ODD THINGS. PERHAPS THEY ARE RIGHT BUT I VALUE THE EXPERIENCE OF VISITING COUNTRYS AND CULTURES DIFFERENT FROM MY OWN AND STUDYING THE OBJECTS AND CRITTERS THERE MORE THAN MERELY SAVEING A PILE OF MONEY. (I JUST WISH I HAD LOTS MORE MERE MONEY SO I COULD RAMBLE AND COLLECT MORE :D ) A EDGED WEAPON POINTED AT YOU IN A AGRESSIVE MANNER DOES INSTILL A DIFFERENT KIND OF FEAR THAN A GUN, SOMEHOW IT IS MORE PERSONEL. I DON'T FEEL THAT EDGED WEAPONS ARE IN A CULTURAL GHETTO ALTHOUGH SOME DO HAVE A STIGMA ATTACHED TO THEM. THE MOVIES MADE A COMMON KNIFE HERE IN THE USA WHICH COULD BE FOUND IN MOST FISHING AND TOOL BOXES INTO A EVIL THING, I SPEAK OF THE SWITCH BLADE. AFTER THE MOVIES CAME OUT EVERYONE IN GANGS AND OTHERWISE WANTED TO CARRY ONE AND LAWS WERE PASSED BANNING THEM. I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER CASES IN MOST COUNTRYS OVER THE WORLD AS THE USA IS A VERY YOUNG COUNTRY AND JUMPED FROM THE STONE AGE TO IRON, CANNONS AND GUNS IN FAIRLY RECENT TIMES. SOME GOVERMENTS SEEM TO BE ASHAMED OF THEIR HISTORY AND WANT TO BURY IT AND JUST PLAY UP HOW MODERN THEY ARE AND PUT DOWN MANY GREAT ACCOMPLISHMENTS OF THEIR ANCESTORS BECAUSE THEY CONSIDER THEM PRIMATIVES. IN SUCH CASES MUSEUMS AND BOOKS ARE STRIPPED OF THEIR TREASURES AND THE CURRENT DOGMA TAKES ITS PLACE. THIS IS UNFORTUNATE AND IS ALSO ONE OF THE REASONS COLLECTIONS OF WEAPONS AND BIOLOGICAL SPECIMINS ARE REMOVED FROM DISPLAYS AND REPLACED WITH INTERPRETIVE EXHIBITS. THIS MAKES IT MORE POLITICALLY CORRECT AND ECOLOGICALLY SENSITIVE BUT MUCH OF THE WONDER OF THE WORLD AND ITS HISTORY AND CREATURES ARE LOST FROM VIEW. THE ENDLESS VARIETY IN THIS WORLD HAS ALWAYS BEEN OF GREAT INTREST AND I LIKE TO SEE , DO AND LEARN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE WHICH MAKES ME A POOR SCHOLAR AS I COVER TOO MUCH AND DON'T FOCUS ON A SPECIALITY. I TOOK TAIKWONDO FROM MASTER DON WON KANG WHO WAS A KOREAN EIGHTH DEGREE BLACK BELT AT THE TIME AND HE TAUGHT SWORD TECKNIQUES TO THE UPPER BELTS. THERE WAS NO CUTTING AND I DIDN'T ADVANCE FAR ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY SPAR BUT DID ENJOY IT AND PICKED UP A NICE JAPANESE SWORD TO PRACTICE WITH WHEN NOT USING A STICK. PARDON MY RAMBELINGS ITS LATE GOOD NIGHT |
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Hi Antonio,
I really think you have in effect, awakened a sleeping giant here! While I have long considered the anthropological and cultural aspects of the weapons and those who used them of paramount importance, I had honestly never thought of the sociological perspective of those who collect and study them! Brilliant thought! and even more, fascinating responses. Another important thing I notice, and would like to thank you for, is that you very patiently and consistantly address everyone who responds to you directly and personally. I know that I appreciate that very much, as I am sure does everyone, and I think it is even more amazing considering the volume that has developed in this thread. While I know I have already responded to the original questions, it was later asked if we thought that our interest in weapons led to certain disapproval by others. I know that I personally view these now static weapons as virtually living elements of history. I have already noted my passion for the study of history, but how can one describe the incredible excitement in viewing Lady Butler's painting of the Royal Scots Greys charge at Waterloo, while holding a heavy cavalry disc hilt that was there! How I took a photo of an inscription from a magnificent Islamic shamshir to a friend who was Muslim hoping for translation. He seemed stunned and his eyes welled with tears as he noted the inscription's inclusion of the name of the Prophet. He then most reverently kissed the photograph. I think most of the people I have ever spoken to concerning my studies on edged weapons consider it interesting at first, even in degree fascinating. I always know if they ask questions to pursue the conversation further, most do.In any case I think that the fact that my interest clearly represents love of history rather than the emphasis on how the weapons were used tends to guage how others perceive my admittedly unusual avocation. I work in an extremely large international airport (DFW) and interact with often thousands of people each day from all over the world. I enjoy talking with people of many cultures, faiths and groups and most enjoy the glee in thier eyes when I recognize where they are from and open discussion on thier country or culture, for example a Sikh from the Punjab, a Hindu from Madras, an Armenian, Persian, tribesmen from Guinea, Sudan, Eritrea. These people are incredibly proud of thier heritage, and I admire them. While our contact is of course brief, they love having been recognized, and they invariably will express gratitude and appreciation for the respect shown. On occasions where I have had time to speak with many of these people, there has been time for discussion that leads to weapons. The most productive I recall have been probably the African countries, for example a Fur gentleman from Darfur who openly discussed the kaskara, and once a group of men from several African countries who all anxiously and delightedly wanted to talk of the weapons of thier own countries. We talked, drew pictures and described and all were thrilled, especially me!! I took notes, and my studies reached new and more personal dimension. I think the most important thing illustrated in these incidents is the importance of awareness, understanding and respect for the cultures and beliefs of others. If there were more of this in the world, there would be little need for the tragedy of war and fighting, and as you have emphasized, there might be peace at last. How ironic is it that my deep respect and admiration for other cultures actually came from the study of weapons!!? Another extremely important factor you have keyed upon is the more subjective topic of the magical,talismanic and superstitious/religious connotations that are actually quite critical in properly understanding most ethnographic weapons, with the keris mentioned appropiately in specific. While I again would defer such complexities for more specifically defined discussion, you had asked about the meaning of 'keris'. I have been hoping that some of our keris scholars might address this, in the meantime what I have discovered is that the dictionary entry suggests this is a Malay term for dagger, with no etymology noted. The word seems to have entered the English language c.1580 with Sir Francis Drake bringing several back to England. The keris was of course well known through trade by the Dutch, and appears in paintings, most notably Rembrandt's 'Samson' of 1628. It seems that in a discussion with Ruel Macaraeg, who is a very astute linguist and often writes on these forums, he suggested (5/2000) that the term may come from the Khmer word 'kroeus'. While I cannot elaborate on this further, it seems an interesting clue for the derivation of the term. In closing I would note the one comment that has been expressed to me countless times over the years has been, "if only these weapons could talk!!". The truth is...they do!!! if we will just see what they are trying to tell us!!! :) Very best regards, Jim |
From museal point of view
Antonio: I must say that in my work and interests around weapon hardly ever I met with fear, weariness or frown upon - with lack of interest, yes, but it's obvious for me that not everyone should be interest with that sort of things - I would die if someone forced me to fascinate with i.e. cosmetics :). It's the other story with me than with our forum friends. I don't collect weapons, so I don't have knives, sabres or anything that look sinisterly :) on the walls, in cabinets, etc. - so fear of other peaple is avoiding me :).
But there is another point of view which I would like to present - weapons in the eyes of Polish museum workers. Generally there is a feeling that all of this is just a piece of metal junk. For many people first art are paintings. Of course this conviction is passing quickly away when they are confront with beaty and art of this "junk". Beside this, other museum workers treating weapons as a kind of gadgets, not seriously enough. All of this is of course a consequence of lack of knowledge, I understand it, and I don't make a thing out of this. Some of the museum ladies are sometimes trying to pretend "disgust" with weapons - "you can be hurt with this" - but we (we - because I'm not working alone) make a laugh at it. Sometimes we are joking, that we can make an uprising against some unpopular decisions of director, and we can equip all personel, roll out cannons, and fight for whats better for us :D. Another detached remark: I also make a lessons for kids, teenagers, students. If the teacher is making appointement with me, there is sometimes an offer to separate girls and boys. Boys are going to see weapons, girls another exhibitions. It's of course superstition - I found, that during lessons often the girls getting more interested in topic than the boys :D. I'm fascinating with this forum too, Antonio. The portion of knowledge I get here is bigger than our Polish book market can give you. I wanted put a smiley face here, but to be serious it isn't funny. In reality, I'm without chance to get a single book from aboard, I'm in need of. So the work is hard. The researches from time to time are in deadlock :(. Hope it's getting better. Best regards! |
Polls!
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Favorite sword – I wonder if kriss lovers are more than dha lovers in this forum. Area of collection – Please let me alone to collect Balkan stuff. Best material of the hilt – Walrus ivory or Rhino horn? Next president – (ops! This is off topic :D ). |
Well said Wolviex, a bit less phyco babble and 21century medievalism.I have practised european fencing for over a decade so I will admit martial arts can leed some people to selfdiscipline, but you can get that fixing your car.Violence studied in a monks costume is still violence,there is no gentlemanly way of killing,it is the same result from a common bandit.I hope I do not upset people too much.Tim
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Wow, excellent discourse so far. It is great to see how so many of us have wound up here in this place. Figure its my turn to share, and so I will combine questions 1 and 2.
Even though I was raised in the US, I grew up with bolo around the house. Some of my fondest memories of family, was every spring the old worn out bolo would come to be used in the yard. When I was between 10-12 that bolo became mine, as my father felt that knife collecting was a good hobby for a child. However, being in MN bolo were hard to find, so my interest turned to more generic machine made knives, and the oggling of 440 stanless pieces at the mall. Though through it all, that rusty little bolo was still the best knife I had. Well, then came the teenage years, and the interest in edged weaponry shifted to guitars and girls ;) Stopped collecting, and all the blades were left to the dustbunnies in a chest. After a tumultuous period in life, and the advent of the internet the idea of getting back into a more healthful (comparatively) hobby came back. Getting back into collecting blades was more of a way to get back in touch with older childhood interests in the hopes of forgetting more adult vices. Anyways, with the net came oodles of exposure to possibilities of weapons purchases. Bolo were always of interest, but mainstream European and Japanese blades seemed to hold the fancy. But lo and behold, even modern traditional reproductions were well out of my price range. Then I started to hear more about the weapons of the Philippines, and that there were more than just bolo. So I started to stumble out onto Ebay, and pick up pieces here and there. However, these were mostly dissappointing tourist pieces, that were obviously not traditional. Then I found this forum, and the idea to start researching so that I wouldnt get ripped off was firmly implanted by Rick, Zel, and Jose. However, I had not yet fully embraced the idea of being a purely ethnographic collector. I had still hoped to find good modern reproductions. Anyways, the more I collected, the more I found that the cost of even the most high end ethno piece, was usually a fraction of what a mid-grade custom reproduction would cost. Also, the weapons that had always meant something to me (and the only ones I kept from my earlier knife collecting stage) were weapons that were made with an intention, good or bad. They were grounded in a living culture/tradition and made to work. They were not just some irrelevant piece of art, but had meaning that went beyond the aesthetic in their creation. Soon, I started to get an affinity for these pieces beyond material culture, as in research I began to delve more and more into the history/culture of the people who reproduced them Given the large amount of ethnographic pieces, I decided to limit my research to the Sandata. I figured Id rather be a specialist, than a jack of all trades that is master of none. Also, being a lonely pinoy stranded in Nordic country, it felt good to connect to a past cultural history, and to finally be proud of my ancestors after so many years of being told that Western Civilization was the epitome of progress. The more I researched and collected, the more I started to let go of an empirical mode of thought, and began to connect to pieces on a more gut/spiritual level (I normally do not discuss this aspect of my collecting habit/research). Particularly through the guidance of Mabagani, these pieces no longer became objects to hang on a wall, but once again gained life as tools to connect to the past through the living practice of Filipino Martial Arts. Anyways, I will admit this, I do like all ethnographic weaponry, and my collection is not limited to the Sandata. There are even a few dha in the mix :eek: However, not knowing enough about other ethnographic pieces, I am more wary about placing $$$ on something that I know little about. So if its not for cheap, itll have to wait till I win the lottery and can afford to buy from a reputable dealer. As for question 3, I can only second the suggestion to go through past keris/kris threads. There are so many different theories, depending on the culture that produced the specific keris/kris, that it is really impossible to essentialize the matter into a simple answer, not to mention the fact that I am already rambling like crazy. Question A, B, C. Unfortunately my experience of with others views of my collection have tended to be on the negative. I have had some quite dramatic reactions from people (including my own sister) who feel that any weapon (be it a gun, knife, or sword) is inherently evil, and that my ownership and interest of such a weapon by means of association means that somehow I am to be viewed as a inherently violent and evil person. If I am lucky, I will occaisionally get the laughing ambivilence, but this has not been the majority of my experiences with the non-initiated. Anyways, usually I can calm things down by bringing up that this collection is not a means for me to express some macho sexist tendency, but rather an attempt to preserve and appreciate a dying cultural legacy that has far deeper meanings than the mere material nature of its presentation. Anyways, as for whether swords inhabit a cultural-ghetto, I would say in larger Western high culture society, yes. In this realm, along with any other weaponry, they represent a past that is desired to be forgotten. A relic of days when institutional safety was not as strong, and further still they inspire a deeper sub-conscious realization that those days were not too far gone in the past, they reveal the thinness of the fabric that we call civilization. In more popular culture, swords are lost in the media jungle of Nascar, WWE wrestling, and American Idol. |
Wolviex,
I think that many of the books we use as references are becoming even more difficult to obtain, however I think the others would join with me in offering to assisting you directly with whatever we can. Just contact us and let us know what you need. If you need to check a reference out of a particular resource, often we can help. As far as the books themselves..well when they can be found they are incredibly expensive usually in the older ones. Slowly new ones are being published, in fact a landmark book on Indian weapons, "Hindu Arms and Ritual" has just been released by Dr. Robert Elgood. This book can only be described as magnificent and essential to the library of any student of arms and armour as well as those studying anthropology, religions, and art. With regard to your observations on museum perspective there in Poland, I think this is something that seems to pervade museums worldwide these days unfortunately in many cases. I would be careful to note that this obviously excludes many larger museums who make efforts to maintain scholarly study and representations of arms and armour study, the premier example of which is the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. I would like to add that there have been many outstanding Polish scholars and authors with valuable contributions to the study of arms and armour, whose books would seem more available to you there, while extremely difficult for us to obtain here in the U.S. To name just a few: "Szabla Zotnierza Polskiego XIX i XX wiek" Aleksander Czerwinski and Leslaw Dudek, Warsaw, 1988 "Polish Arms, Side Arms" by Andrzej Nadolski, Warsaw, 1974 "Piec Wiekow Szabli Polskiej" by Wlodzimierz Kwasniewicz, Warsaw, 1993 "Ciecia Prawdziwa Szabla" by Wojciech Zablocki, Warsaw, 1989 and most valuable and of broader scope, "Bron W Dawnej Polsce", by Dr. Zdzislaw Zygulski Jr. Warsaw, 1975 Professor Zygulski is as you know a brilliant scholar and has been director of the Czartoryskich collection for many years. His contributions to the incorporation of the study of arms and armour and of art are well known, especially his work on the "Polish Rider" by Rembrandt and his unforgettable work on the 'winged hussars' of Poland. A number of years ago he was very kind and helpful in assisting me with a query concerning elements of motif in certain Polish weapons and armour. That a scholar of his station took the time to assist with what must have seemed elementary is something I certainly have never forgotten. I just wanted to express gratitude to the many Polish scholars who have been so helpful to us here in the west, and that we would welcome the opportunity to return the favor. :) With all best regards, Jim |
Orez Perski. 2000. Museum Zamkowe W Malborku. ISBN 83-86206-31-4 In Polish and English very good book.Tim
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Jim - thank you so far,. I don't want to make a Polish topic from this Antonio's thread, and about my problems either. So I'll contact you via private message.
Best regards! :) |
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bible belt is the term given to the midwest america and the south, where it is very conservative compared to the left and right coasts... |
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Gentlemen, Pardon me for not being able to reply, but I am presently really busy. I make it a point to reply to everyone, Thank you for your understanding, Best, Antonio |
Gentlemen
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Thank you very much for posting the link here. Most invaluable. :) Vandoo, Jim, Federico and all other gentlemen, Please forgive me for not being able to reply one by one to all your great posts. I have been extremely busy and am having a bit of a rest now :o Andrew, Thank you for your assistance with the poll. My idea about the poll is to see very simple answers to questions so that they might eventually be incorporated in another area of the Forum as Socio Anthropological information. Here they: 1. What is your ancestral background? 2. Where do you live? 3. At what age did you beging to feel attracted by swords? - adolescence - 20's - 30's -Later 4. Do you feel segregated as a sword collector? Yes No 5. Has your profession played a role in being a collector? 6. Reason you collect Ethnographical Weapons - reminds me of my roots - interested in specific cultures - because of its beautiful per se 7. What is your definition of Ethnografical Weapons? Please reply in a very direct and concise way. 8. State which do you consider Ethnographical Weapons? 9. Why? Please reply in a very direct and concise way. 10. Which countries swords do you collect mostly? 11. Are you open to other types? I hope this can cover most of the issues. Feel free to add more questions. Thank you Andrew and all :) |
Antonio - as far as I know, forum poll option is possible to apply when you've got few answers to choose, like A, B, C, and then system is able to count answers and give you a percent result - but let's wait what Andrew can do, maybe I'm wrong.
Questions are ok, but let me have one remark - maybe I'm the exception, but I can't answer to a few questions like: "Has your profession played a role in being a collector?" or "Which countries swords do you collect mostly?", while I'm no collector just a museum worker :( - maybe I should answer as an Institution :) Best regards! |
Wolviex,
Thank you for your kind information. I am not sure how to move around and appreciate Andrew's help and adaptation whenever necessary. Indeed, I think it is fine to answer as an Institution. Thank you. :) Best regards. |
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Thanks Tom :)
I posted the earlier row of questions for Andrew to kindly make a poll of it. But your answer is invaluable. Thank you so much. |
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