Correction...
 

I stand corrected. :o Thank you Pangeran Datu and Alan. :D
I guess, I'm like a "Jalak Ngoceh" myself (talk to much).:shrug:

G’day Alan,
ROTFLPIMP ... Now I KNOW you’re having a lend of me! :D
Unfortunately, I can never lay claim to being anywhere near clever (my genes don’t have ‘clever’ on their database :) ).
However, I will admit to being fortunate enough to be a ‘survivor’. Any experience/knowledge/skills I may have was born of necessity, not by design.

Back to the word ‘ngoceh’: I am a lazy sort of bloke. I like to use what’s on hand first before scurrying off to look for additional tools.
Had I NOT been satisfied by the the result of my working knowledge, then, no doubt, I WOULD have been forced to study texts/dictionaries to find the origin/meaning of the word in Kawi/Sanskrit. Thankfully, that need didn’t arise in this case.


Hi Shahrial,
I wouldn’t be too concerned about it :) .
You’re doing a great job in this forum: I consider you a major and consistent contributor.
(BTW … did I spell your name correctly? I wondered because I have some friends with a similar name, but they spell theirs with a ‘z’: Shahrizal).

I think it’s good that sometimes we are able to have a bit of a giggle with each other, even have a slight ‘dig’ at each other, without losing one’s sense of humour :D .
One shouldn’t be afraid to get egg on one’s face either, as long as there’s benefit. Goodness knows how many eggs have landed on my face!

Hi Carlos,
Please accept my apologies for this digression.

Cheers!

And a very good day to you too Pangeran.

No, I was not taking the mickey.
I truly believe that anybody who is able to use any language in a clear, concise and consistent manner, without the use of reference books does possess some special ability.From a very young age I recieved various forms of recognition for my skill in the use of the English language, my professional work has always had as a large component of its requirements, the ability to write clear English. As a community service I used to teach English to migrants and to some of our less fortunate adults. I think I can claim that I do handle my native language reasonably well, and that this has been recognised by my peers. However, every day I still need to check dictionaries, a thesaurus, sometimes a grammar text.Sometimes the right word may elude me for days at a time, and with particularly tricky reports or opinions I have been known to get out of bed at 2am to write something , before I lose it.

I regret that I do not have very much talent in the field of foriegn languages. As a child, I never managed to pass a French examination even one time.As an adult learning Indonesian, I gave up on classroom instruction and set myself to learn the language in the same way that a child will learn his native language. As I learnt Indonesian I found that a large component of the dialect I was learning was in fact Javanese, so I extended my attempts at gaining new language skills into attempts at mastering Javanese as well. Although I have managed to become reasonably proficient in Indonesian, I have given up on the possibility of ever being able to hold a conversation in acceptable formal Javanese. It is simply beyond me. I say this after near to 40 years of trying.

Now, when somebody who is not a native speaker of Indonesian comes along and tells me that he "can trade grammar and colloquialism with the best of them", and moreover, seldom needs to refer to a dictionary, I'm sure you will appreciate that I can hardly be anything other than envious. Indeed, perhaps I even hold in awe this person who possesses such skill in the use of a foriegn language. Skill that I myself lack.

Pangeran Datu, you claim that you lack cleverness. I will accept this self judgement, however, you cannot deny that you possess exceptional brilliance in your ability to master a foriegn language.

Regretably, when you addressed the meaning of the word "ngoceh", you did so from the base of your knowledge of the Indonesian language, without realising that this word was not in this context an Indonesian word, but was in fact being used as a Javanese word. Your "working knowledge" in this case may have been sufficient to satisfy you, but unfortunately it was insufficient to allow you to provide an accurate answer.Pangeran, I greatly respect your brilliance in your Indonesian language abilities, and this respect is not lessened by your deficiency in understanding of Javanese language and culture.

In a similar fashion you erred in your understanding, of the word "jalak".
The word "jalak" is a generic word that refers to both mynas and starlings. There are various types of jalak, and along with the various jalak we can include the perling, and the tiong. However, only a couple of birds from this genus are regarded in Jawa as suitable cage birds.The jalak which is most highly prized as a cage bird is the Tiong Emas, or Hill Myna (gracula religiosa). This bird possesses extreme ability in mimicry, and can even learn entire songs, or pieces of poetry.

As I am sure you are aware, one of the enduring cultural traits of the Javanese man is the keeping of birds. Within Javanese culture the keeping of birds is looked upon as an honourable pastime, and something that differentiates the man of refinement from the he who is cut from coarser cloth.

The dapur forms that incorporate the word "jalak" into their names can only be referring to that most highly regarded of the genus, the Tiong Emas. This prince of mimicry, which can repeat the most complex of phrases, seemingly having great command of language, but in fact having only the gift of mimicry, without the attendant ability to understand what it is saying. This is the bird that we must think of when we try to make sense of the relationship between the word "jalak", and the dapur of a keris.

Both the keris and this particular jalak are attributes of the Javanese male, and it is not difficult to see the similarity in form between a prime Tiong Emas when upright and singing, and the pawakan of that group of keris which contains the word "jalak" in their names.The dapur in which this relationship can most easily be observed is the dapur of Jalak Buda.

Thus, the word "jalak" in the name "jalak ngoceh" should be translated as "myna". Mynas and starlings belong to the same genus, but a myna is most definitely not a starling.

Shahrial, I wouldn't worry too much about "standing corrected", were I you. Javanese is not your native language,nor is English, Harsrinuksmo gave only a straight translation of ngoceh, and you made a typo. Speaking for myself, I read your "scattering" as "chattering" from the time of your first post of this word, and I felt that in the circumstances, this was near enough. The only reason I have pursued this matter is because it became apparent that a greater degree of accuracy was being demanded, and I have tried to satisfy this demand.