I am not selling carpets.
 

Honest. I post this one from Afghanistan to show how stylised these can get. So the images on the blade are relatively conservative.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...happy/bird.jpg

I appreciate that sometimes I have some 'wacky' ideas....but if we all thought the same way....progress in knowledge would be greatly slowed. (well that's my excuse anyway :D :p ) but I'd like to throw this idea into the discussion.

The phallic symbolism of the sword has been shown to be relevant to many cultures and time periods.....
Could it be that the 'clouds' indeed symbolises 'heaven' , the repetative side motif symbolising 'life' (if it is a form of flora ) but, shaped in a phallic design (the 'bringer' of life? Male virility?). The 'rising' symbols perhaps representative of male, female (human seed? re-incarnated souls?). The Sword itself, is the 'bringer' of death, in combination with the 'life' symbolism, we end up with a depiction of the cycle of life........birth (re-birth?) , growth and death.

.........and afterall 'The pen_is mightier than the sword'... :D :rolleyes:

Interesting thread, iconography, symbolism etc is an important part in the study of ethnographic weaponary. If we could 'crack' the lost meanings ...we would get 'more of a feel' of how these items were viewed through the 'eyes' of their original owners.

The Mosque as an image is not unknown on carpets, sorry to labour this aspect but they do give a wonderful resource. I could see a column of people prone at prayer which would be very unorthodox and a fantastic example of a PI twist to an Islamic motif. The image carried on a blade as this is the tropics, sheep are not kept so the carpet tradition and artistic expession does not exist in PI.

I wonder if we see the same thing on this middle eastern knife. This knife is no longer mine. Although possibly a little more simple it is quite a formal pattern with some similarity to the Turkish design.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=balkan+knife

The phallic symbolism for the Kris is quite probable.
At least one myth in Indonesia mentions this aspect as well as the old connection between Keris and Shivaism.

Michael

Hmm, it seems that we are looking at symbols from a culture that was originally Negrito, animistic then with an Islamic veneer, over this older animistic culture.

We have two main avenues of possibilities. Interpret in terms of that particular society and interpret in terms of universal symbols.

Interpretations in terms of a societal arena posits certain questions. First, how many people in any culture truly understand in depth, the symbols of their OWN culture? And of those people, how many are willing to talk about those symbols? If they do talk, how much is intentional or accidental misinformation.

In "Shields of Melanesia" (2006) Ed Harry Beran and Barry Craig, the author remarks that he has often asked about a design on a new Guinea shield. Often he was told, “We merely follow what our ancestors have done.” When he asked about a certain symbol on a shield, they said, “the v-shape represents the beak of the hornbill.”

This could represent the way the hornbill beak looks from straight ahead as seen by the young hornbill when he is being fed through an opening in the tree trunk. Maybe this could be on the back of the shield to strengthen and protect the bearer.

This could fit in 'local legends' Melanesia or in Borneo. The Dayak believe that the hornbill is a divine messenger. Maybe the V could represent the hornbill telling a Dayak a message from the high kingdom. BUT unless you take the time to learn about a specific culture you will have an impossible time learning the symbolism that appears on weapons or other artifacts.

Continuing in “Shields of Melanesia,” the author continues to ponder the problem of understanding a culture by observation and logic. He uses the metaphor of an Martian anthropologist lands lands on earth. He begins to quiz people on the street of a modern industrial society about the meaning of the overall design of an automobile.

He would be told, “it does not represent anything. It evolved from carts pulled by horses. It is merely designed to transport people and goods."

But the Martian might ask deeper questions. Why does it have two headlights? Do they represent eyes? Maybe a talisman that looks ahead for the protection and safety of the driver? The grill looks like a mouth. Is this to threaten other drivers that your vehicle might attack and eat them?

I have left the book a few sentences back and now forge ahead on my own.

The three pointed star on the hood ornament (Mercedes) does this represent the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit of the Christian religion? The Trimurti (Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma)? The high world, the middle world and the lower world, always keeping them in mind as you go forth?

Do the hubcaps represent shields? They have 12 divisions. Does that correspond to your Zodiac? They are removable, do you use them for personal defense? As thrown weapons?

The patterns in your upholstery. They look vegetative. Do they represent the eggs and flowers of Creation? Is your exhaust a dragon simile?

Now I would suspect it would get even more complicated and possibly if our Martian was using his own culture as a basis.

So where does that leave us in the study of a design on an artifact created as an Islamic overlay on an animistic folk magic culture? Can logic lead anywhere productive?

I think it does if you approach these symbols from a more universal standpoint. Let the logic lead to a visceral response. What do they mean to you? Shiva’s Trident? Neptune’s Trident? Naga eggs? Clouds? Flowers? Do they evoke a feeling in you, the viewer?

Then that is exactly what they mean. What did they mean to the guy who put them there? I sincerely doubt anyone, even his wife, will ever know.

I believe it was Jung who suggested that instead of analyzing the dream, analyze the dreamer. If this strikes a chord in someone here – other than just thinking this reply is the ramblings of a bemused dreamer, myself, we can take this further.

Where do symbols come from? Why do we use them? Why are we drawn to them? Why are the religious systems of EVERY culture riddled with paradoxes?

Interesting points Bill. I am inclined to feel that we can look at these not as an absolute alien. We do have some well known facts about the people thier religion and lives. I am dreaming too, but a local version linked to a pan Islamic influence is a viable area to investigate. Looking for a source is possibly a first step. Scholars managed to interpret ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics and much middle American writing systems. If other members had more to compere might be helpful.

Hi Tim,

I believe the hieroglyphics were basically untranslateable until someone discovered the Rosetta stone that had the royal and heavenly (Egyptian) languages along with the same information in classical Greek.

Even then it took about 20 years, after it was discovered, (early 1800s) for a translation to be availaible. Comparative translation of this artifact originally created in about 200 bc did then lead to the understanding of previously untranslatable heiroglyphic texts. The text of the Rosetta Stone is a decree from Ptolemy V, describing the repealing of various taxes and instructions to erect statues in temples.

I don't necessarily see a correlation here. Best I can tell the early animistic cultures, whether Philippines or elsewhere had no written language.

I would like to belive that I coulld look at these animistic cultures with a better understanding, but I have friends who have been there and studied primitive cultures and they have told me there is an alien-ness that they never felt they ever understood.

Even in the works of Margaret Mead, there is confusion.

Still we can glean information from their works and hopefully enjoy a glimmer of understanding. We do the best we can. For now, I can see agreement with every interpretation in this thread on Michael's exceptional kris. All have validity.

Personally it looks like a protective enclosure focusing some energy down the blade.

Bill,

Thanks for your interesting posts.
One thing that puzzles me is the Negrito connection?
As far as I understand the "Moros" are of Malay-Indonesian origin and not related to the original "Negritos" living before them on the islands?
Another influence, especially important related to Kris culture and Folk Islam, is the pre-Islamic Hindu beliefs in this area.

Also there exist some early documentation to be found on the beliefs in the area from the time before this Kris was produced.

On the two avenues it's a classical clash of two schools (f.i. within your field of comparative religion);
- all symbols are universal (Eliade, Jung), and
- all symbols are specific to the local culture (Evans-Pritchard, Geertz).
As usual with two extremes "the truth" is often found somewhere inbetween.

I really enjoyed your Martian example but if the Martian had read about the earthlings before his field work probably he had drawn less drastic conclusions?

I fully agree with you on:

"Still we can glean information from their works and hopefully enjoy a glimmer of understanding."

That's exactly the purpose of this thread. We can probably never find out for sure the exact meaning of this motif. But together maybe we can find some possible explanations of it?
The alternative is to dismiss it as all guess work, which in a way it of course is. But that doesn't increase the possibility of understanding on how to get closer to some of the more probable meanings of this riddle.

Michael

We also know that the people in question are indeed Muslims and as one of the worlds major faiths comes with its own iconography. Look at the array of styles of Christian crosses from region to region, all mean the same thing. Could the images on these two weapons be the same scenario? We know religious mottoes and talisman are used as protective and good fortune symbols. We could want or have a need to dig too deep and expect or hope for a strange occult outcome when it might be quite straight forward, perhaps even obvious once one is attuned? :shrug: Somebody must have another Islamic weapon with something similar on it?

This thread is getting better and better..... Bill you 'martian' analogy is 'spot on' ...sometimes symbolism can be 'over anaylsised'. And you are correct the 'Rosetta' stone finally unlocked the hieroglyphics of Ancient Egypt. Tim interesting input and VVV thankyou for your comments. Keep up the good work :)

Hello VVV,
Can you share some other examples of Moro swords from your collection that have talismanic inscriptions on their blades. Maybe there are some that maybe be related and may bring some more discussion.
Since talismanic beliefs tend to be more protective by nature, should these inscription also be seen on other Moro battle attire like Armors, helmets and shields as well??

The same geometric signs can be seen on shields


Ben

lol, forgot to mention that on the other thread but yes other than the large ones there are small geometric designs and circles on that shield. first time i seen them on a moro shield. would be nice to see other examples.

Hello Jon,

I am travelling this week and will post some more examples when back home again.

Michael

...reviving an old thread.

michael, it would be very interesting to see more examples from your collection, or anyone else that has moro swords with talismanic symbols for that matter. meanwhile, here's a barung that has talismanic symbols:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/1782635b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/005e0ffb.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/2b2c5b69.jpg

Spunjer, It looks like Zulfiqar, the sword of Ali. Nice Barung, give it to me for Pasko, Pare.

yup, it is the zulfiqar. actually first barung i have that has talismanic symbol. wanna trade with some of your A-list moro stuff, p're??? :D
here's another one; a kampilan with talismanic symbols (trisula) running 2/3s along the spine followed by discs, and ukkil at the base of the blade on both sides. another interesting aspect is the rayskin wrap on the handle, something i've never seen on any moro weapons.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/761f6497.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/89ccace6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/1e69a465.jpg

Interesting and unusual blades!

I haven't either seen these motifs on a kampilan or a ray skin at the handle.
That's strange as the sting-ray's tail, as I have been told, was quite common as a weapon all over Philippines?

Michael

the stingray's tail, or buntot-pagi, are indeed used as a weapon, but it is more towards supernatural application, michael.

another less unusual, but uncommon, is the utilization of horn as croc eyes. btw, michael, do you have any other moro stuff that has talismanic symbols you don't mind sharing?

Thanks for the explanation of the stingray whip.
Please develop the relationship between horn and croc's eyes as I didn't get it?
Here is a link to the seller's pictures of one of my bolos with talismanic motifs.

http://www.mytribalworld.com/pagina12.html

My guess is that it's Visayan.
Any other ideas on the origin and/or the meaning of the motifs on the blade?

Michael

sorry for the misunderstanding. i meant to say that regarding the croc's eyes on the kampilan, i haven't seen any that utilized horns for its eyes. normally it's some sort of metallic discs...

as far as your sword: wow, that's a beauty! it's an enigma as well since it has attributes from different sources. the blade has visayan flavor (beveled edge), and even the handle appears to be a bakunawa. the patterns on the blade is something i've never seen on any visayan blades tho. it appears lumad. michael, if there's anyone that could prolly help you on this, i would say manong leo gaje could. i'm sorry i couldn't be much of help.

Thanks,

On talismanic inlays, as well as other spiritual matters, in most cultures it's usually considered stronger if it's foreign.
So maybe this is the case? A visayan sword with Lumad (inspired or copied?) engravings?
Maybe someone else recognise something on this blade?
Do you think the blade motifs might be related to (evil) eyes or is it something else?

Michael

hi michael,
i was looking at one of my binangons and i remember this unusual feature:

this binangon:
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...s1/202-rz6.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/fd805cf6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/7644d1fe.jpg

at first glance, it could be assumed that a hugh rasp file (at least 20" by 2.5")was used as blank to make the blade. granted it was, but why not grind it until there's no sign that it was a rasp file? or was it left there on purpose? remember; bakunawa = dragon ;)

here's a motif from a recent kris that i haven't cleaned yet:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/76c40859.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...r/d3240464.jpg

Hi Ron,

Bakunawa and scales is an interesting idea that I haven't heard of before.
Here are some new pictures of the bolo I only had a link to before.

Michael

without a doubt, it is a bakunawa, more pronounced than the Ilonggo version. thanks for the close ups. the lean on the blade is something i find unusual. pretty cool, tho.

Here is a motif I haven't seen on kris blades before - the star cluster.
It was a pleasant surprise as the pictures on ebay was of a very low quality so it was impossible to see what the blade really looked like.
Also an unusual hanger attached to the scabbard on this Maranao kris.
The hilt and scabbard however aren't that exciting.
Any ideas or references for this motif?

Michael

Congrats, Michael!

The blade looks Sulu to me - hilt possibly Maguindanao?

This "star" motif seems to be related to the smaller "stars"/"bird footprints" sometmes seen on older Moro blades. A thumbnail of a really nice example is published in vZ (sundang)...

The small peg for holding the scabbard in the sash seems to be quite common with these Maguindanao scabbards.

Regards,
Kai

Maybe I was too fast with describing the blade as Maranao?
I went for the Cato classification but I agree that the rest looks more Sulu.
On the van Z thumb nail picture I can't really see if it's stars or the more common dots?
Do you have any other reference picture?

Michael

I do not know if this has any relevance but flowers-gardens-paradise, and stars-heaven, are all often elements in Islamic carpet design and other decoration.

hi michael,
thanks for posting that.
are the stars in any particular pattern going down the blade?
as per the scabbard; prolly not original to the blade...

I agree with Kai in that the blade looks Sulu but the rest is Maguindanao.

Also the "fingernail" symbols are an old okir motif, used in both Maranao/Maguindanao and Sulu pieces. These seemed to have migrated to the Lumad tribes as well who live near the Maguindanao and Maranao. The tool that makes this symbol is easy to make and common to chasing tools all over Indonesia and the PI.

Thanks all for comments,

On the "stars" they are single on the katik area and then along the fuller it's 5-formations with a single star inbetween (1+5+1+5+1 etc.).
On the scabbard and hilt I also suspect that they are later than the blade.

Michael

This link is interesting. There is a warning not to see what you want to see, {scroll down to sub title "The Paradise Show"} but this kind of imagery appears frequently on these weapons. We know the back ground and setting, also that the peoples are Muslim, that weapons, warriors, jihad, death and martyrdom often go hand in hand with faith and paradise. Mottos and talismans of a religous nature are common on edged weapons the world over. It is not unreasonable to consider exploring possible links to "higher?" depictions of paradise in Islamic art and architecture.

http://www.sonic.net/~tallen/palmtree/ip.html

Thanks Tim,

Some symbols, like Ali's sword, probably don't have that many probable interpretations?
But for a star, or a star formation of five, it's quite open.
Both the star in itself, that could maybe symbolise something celestial, and the number 5 have a lot of possible explanations:
- the 5 palaces of Malay metaphysics - heart, stomach, liver, lungs and the complete body?
- the 5 daily prayers?
- 5 fingers in your eye, against the evil eye?
- the old Hindu-Malay divination system of the 5 times of the day and the 5 days - Katika Lima?
- maybe Paradise somehow or maybe something else?
I am open and curious for suggestions.

Michael

thank you!
another angle could be perhaps it's not not talismanic, rather just some patriotic decor.

Hi Michael,

I think its ( the motis on page 1 with cirlces and arrows) more or less related to a symbol what know in old works as " the headhunting symbol" .
It looks like a split of the whole symbol maybe course it has lost its original meaning.

The headhunting symbol is widespread and the most clear in the Ceram and Celebes culture where in the motif 4 birds flying away from the sun. ( the cirlce) The birds are in some cultures replaced by halfmoon motifs , half moon motifs are on their way connected with the horn motif a fertility symbol.
The sun wich is coming up and going down is the symbol of live and death.

combing these two symbols in one motif these kind of motifs are very old and used as symbols around headhunting.

Source: Toovertekens en symbolen van Indonesie - G.L.Tichelman.
Arjan.

Thanks both Ron and Arjan for sharing your knowledge.
As well as giving me new ideas on the meaning of the motifs of both the last and the first kris of this thread.

Michael

There are so many stars I cannot see the 5 star thing. I am not an expert acedemic but what I can see is a floral motif capped by a pattern of stars done in a most sensitive and economical manner in a confined space, so clever -beautiful in fact. If it does not represent paradise under the celestial sky? it is indeed very simple to read it so, one might think it was almost deliberate.

Tim,

The floral motif is quite common on Sulu kris.
Bill has earlier posted a very nice kris with this motif.
It seems to be a symbol for the sultanate?
The 5 stars are lower on the blade, inside and along the fuller.

Michael