And another note: ebay doesn't allow to post ivory of any sort, so a business due ebay wouldn't be possible so I guess that the listing was illegal due ebay rules. This would have been different by a private deal but you would need the help of the seller with CITES export permission.

This does not explain how a buyer is supposed to start this complicated process when the whitish material in question, which is not described in the eBay listing, might not even be ivory. And where to draw the line with this? Should buyers also insist that sellers (who barely know what they have their hands on in the first place) have all the wooden components of a Keris dress scientifically investigated on the off chance these elements are made from a species of Southeast Asian timber that is on the CITES list?

In any case, as I said to begin with, eBay customer service informed me that the keris was "liquidated" because the carrier/US customs deemed it to be a prohibited import in Australia (i.e., a weapon); they said nothing about it being seized because of ivory or anything to do with CITES regulations.

Gents,

I think the ivory issue is unlikely to be the reason for Adam's keris being seized. I have heard of other items being confiscated because there is a belief that anything labeled as a weapon will be problematic importing onto Australia. This takes staff time for the shipping company (in this case Pitney-Bowes) at the Australian end. I have formed the opinion that P-B has developed a policy that anything suggesting a weapon cannot be sent to Australia because it can cause them problems entering the country, eating up staff time, and losing them money.

The major shipping companies (UPS, DHL, FedEx, etc.) charge exorbitant fees for shipping from the US to Australia. This is because they are shipping companies, not a postal service. All shipments go through a formal Customs review coming into the country when using a shipping comapny. I have had no such problems when items have been sent via USPS (a postal service).

For auction items shipped via one of these shipping companies, I am plagued with requests for documentation. I must provide a copy of the purchase order prepared by the seller. The item descriptions often contain mistakes and use certain words that trigger a nasty response from Customs. For example, sellers should never use the word "dagger" in their description. The official Australian Customs" and Victoria Police Dept's definition of a dagger is a symmetrical, double-edged blade, where the edge extends the whole length (or nearly the whole length) of the blade. However, if the seller labels a knife as a dagger, Australian Customs will treat it as of it meets the legal definition. This can present a problem for importers of keris into Australia.

Recent laws in some (but not all) Australian States have been poorly written to address concerns about machetes, which have been used by juvenile gangs and others in street fighting and home invasions. These laws are so badly written that any large knife, bayonet, or sword can fit the definition of a machete. "Machete" is another term that should never be used to describe a knife entering this country.

Then we have laws and regulations covering edged weapons that might possibly be classified as concealed weapons. The cut off is an overall length of about 14 inches. Thus, everyday multi-purpose sheath knives, folding knives, and even box cutters are suspect and may require special permission to import. Strangely, kitchen knives and butchers' knives are not considered potential weapons.

To legally import edged weapons requires a permit from the State Police department where the applicant resides. In my State (Victoria), this requires a Form B709B, which is issued by the Police Commissioner's office. Application must be made for each individual item that is being imported using Form 1190. The process for each State differs, and the application process can take several weeks. Only individuals who have satisfied certain criteria are eligible to apply for such a permit to import. Achieving the status of "bona fide collector" is one way. This requires another layer of bureaucratic red tape that must be navigated every three years, and entitles that person to apply for an import permit.

Being a collector of edged weapons in my part of Australia is a marathon of bureaucratic hurdles put in place to make the public feel safer (notice I said feel safer).

End of rant! :(

Like I said before, ebay doesn't allow you to list any sort of ivory. I am pretty sure, from my experience, that the "white parts" of the keris in question are from hippo ivory. I can only provide what I know from my own experience and what AI provide, this I have posted.
Regarding tropical wood, I took yesterday a parcel from my local customs which coming from GB (I am located in Germany), the customer asked me about the used wood from one of the scabbards, I claimed that it's not a "forbidden" wood according to CITES, it was OK with him but I guessing that it don't will become more easy in future, it will be a challenge in future I guess. I don't make this rules! :D

I can tell you that ebay had in the past removed a listing of a knife with horn handle because I haven't stated which sort of horn it is! :eek: When I now list something with horn I state it's goat horn, water buffalo horn and so on.
Like I said before, it doesn't become simpler to sell or to buy internationally items which are in our interest in the future.
BTW, you should be happy that it was confiscated in the States and not by the Australian customs, the trouble and penalty you would have gotten I don't want to have.

This thread has moved away a bit from the way in which it began. In this case I do not think that this is an undesirable thing, but rather we have moved into an area of discussion that in my opinion it is essential that all of us who move edged weapons across borders, & who might like to move ivory, & other regulated substances across borders, need to understand.

In so far as edged weapons & Australia are concerned, I do not find the Federal laws & regulations to be at all difficult to navigate. In the past, some of the people involved in administering these laws have been difficult, but that simply requires a re-education of those people, which can be achieved by working through the process. This can be time consuming and annoying, but really, not all that difficult.

The state laws & regulations are another matter, & entry of an item into Australia depends upon satisfying the requirements of State laws & regulations, as well as Federal. Ian lives in Victoria, which has had notoriously difficult legislation to navigate, for people with an interest in the type of things that are discussed here. I live in New South Wales, our legislation can be no less daunting than Victoria's legislation, but it can be worked through, it is just a matter of working through a process, and in all honesty it has never caused me any real difficulty at all. It has cost me time, it has never cost me money, & I have rather enjoyed the interactions with politicians & the bureaucracy.

However, when we need to address the ivory matter, that is an entirely different kettle of fish. Once you enter the ivory arena you are faced with hurdles that truly are impossible to jump, circumvent, or crawl under, and when you have paid out the not inconsiderable amounts of money required to obtain the necessary documentation, you then find that you are faced with a truly magnificent Catch 22.

To illustrate the idiocy & illegality that surrounds the ivory matter in America, & has done so even before the current administration, it is educational to be aware of the Harpsichord Incident that occurred in 2014. I had forgotten all the details of this abomination of American bureaucracy, so I asked AI to write the outline of it for me. Here is the short, sad story of the Persecuted Harpsichord:-

AI generated

In 2014, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) agents seized an 18th-century antique French harpsichord from a home in Connecticut because its keys were veneered with pre-Convention elephant ivory. The seizure was part of intensified enforcement of stricter ivory ban regulations under the Endangered Species Act, targeting ivory trade despite the instrument's age. [1, 2, 3]

Key Details of the Matter:

• The Instrument: A valuable 18th-century harpsichord featuring original ivory keyboard veneers.

• The Action: FWS officials seized the antique, highlighting the difficulty in transporting or selling historic instruments with ivory, regardless of their historical significance or pre-ban origin.

• Context: While owning ivory is legal, the sale, import, or interstate commerce of elephant ivory is highly regulated and often prohibited, catching many collectors and musicians off guard.

• Significance: The case emphasized that even antique ivory (from before 1975) is subject to strict regulations, prompting many to use alternatives like wood, bone, or mammoth ivory in restorations. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
This incident created significant concern among musicians and collectors regarding the legal standing of historical pianos, harpsichords, and organs with ivory keys. [1, 2]

• Ivory on organ keys - MusicaSacra Church Music Forum


The moral of this story might be that where ivory is concerned one does not even mention "ivory" & "America", in the same breath.

I am not certain of the truth of what I am about to write, but this has been mentioned to me by a couple of American citizens, so it might have some substance. It would seem that some states in the USA are considering making it a Capital Offence to pronounce the word "ivory" in a public place.

eBay's forwarding service is really terrible. I bought two full-length fourteen-centimeter Chinese KaiXin knives on eBay. The seller chose eBay's forwarding service, and as a result, both knives were confiscated, said to be prohibited items. In reality, they were only fourteen centimeters. Not long after, I surprisingly found one of them being sold on eBay, so I had to buy it again. As long as you don’t choose the forwarding service, the items will not be confiscated.

Hearsay
 

I have no significant negative personal experience with eBay/Pitney-Bowes Global Shipping Program, but when I was selling Lew's collection I regularly read eBay's own shipping forum and other forums and I encountered many horror stories. Apparently, the GSP would repackage the items, so an original packer's care could become irrelevant for the onward journey. As I remember, one buyer of computer equipment was outraged at the seller because the item was thrown loose into a box and received broken. The seller claimed he had packed with care and a change in weight corroborated this claim. So, in the present case, a determination that there was a CITES issue likely was made when the item was opened for inspection at the GSP.

Lew had a nice collection of Sudanese arm daggers. eBay would reject them based on US government sanctions. They even provided a link to a government website that laid out detailed well targeted and reasonable restrictions that clearly did not apply to my listing. Fortunately, 'East African' substituted for 'Sudanese' reliably fixed my problem then. A friend has similar problems currently on Etsy.

I suspect that these marketplaces will move on from simple trigger words to using an AI process that can 'evaluate full text and images in a listing. I wonder if this will work any better.

As I read this, I'm pretty much convinced that as I lighten up my collection because I'm approaching 80 years. It will never be through eBay, more likely through this site, and I will not send anything to addresses outside of the US.

Then there's tariffs, another bucket of worms.....:rolleyes:

Alan,
this country is a very weird place, but I wouldn't wager a red cent on the death sentence for the word you mentioned. Notice how I dodge it here.;)
Auction houses here move a lot of antiques containing forbidden natural material/s.
Federal laws often conflict with State laws and often never get straightened out.
I'll leave off politics now...

Rick,

I understand exactly why you may feel this way. I'm also approaching 80 and am disposing of many of my edged weapons. For many years I have had a list of countries that I don't export to. Recently, I have added the U.S. to that list because the process of sending items to the U.S. has become overly onerous, especially in relation to tariffs. When exporting to the U.S., the U.S. Customs requires that the exporter pays all import duties before allowing the item into the country--typically, the importer pays the import fees. I don't know of another country that does that.

Conversely, the country that is easiest to export from is presently the U.S. Rather than confining yourself to the U.S., I think you are in the best position to export your items to overseas buyers. Just not through eBay.

Regards, Ian