Hilt Matter, Khanjar vs Koummya
 

Hi All,

There are three koummya shown in this thread that have hilts made of a material other than wood.
Jim McDougall’s example, made of camel bone, has very slight quillons made of metal. I can’t see whether or not there are slight projections of bone on the sides of the hilt under the metal.
Pertinax shows another bone hilt with metal quillons. Again, it is impossible to see what is under the metal clearly. Could it be a separate piece of bone laid crossways to the hilt to fill in the area below the metal?
Marc M. shows a hilt that appears to be ivory. The hilt has two tiny quillon stubs
Could it be that the lack of quillons is caused by not having enough hilt material to make them? Since all three examples appear to be from the 20th century, it is very likely that their appearance rather than functional capability was the important consideration.

Pertinax,
Thanks for the link to Armes Anciennes du Maroc. I downloaded the PDF and will try to get a translation. I can puzzle out a little bit of French and it seems that the author makes a clear distinction between what he calls khanjar and what he calls koummya. Since the khanjar vs koummya designation has been a subject of debate on this forum, I hope that a translation of the French will shed some more light on the matter.

Sincerely,
RobT

Rob good thought!
There is slight projection of bone under metal, so it seems the bone was carved out and the metal covered.

Hi RobT!

I convert PDF documents to Word using ABBYY Fine Reader 15, and then translate the text. It doesn't turn out quite right, but then I make corrections.

Best regards,
Yuri

I'm pretty late on this thread and not nearly as knowledgeable as most here but for what it's worth I love these knives. I seem to remember some considering many even early well made one's as early tourist pieces. I've always thought jambiyas in general,kerises and several other knives were typically more of a form of male jewelry than real dedicated weapons. Nevertheless, I like em.

From my collection.
 

I may have posted this one before, but here we are anyway. A very thick and well formed blade of soft temper, and heavily patinated (oxidised) to the point I see no benefit in striking it off. Well worn in the hilt with wire inlay..... made when they were worn with intent methinks.

[QUOTE=RobT;296795]Hi All,

There are three koummya shown in this thread that have hilts made of a material other than wood.
Jim McDougall’s example, made of camel bone, has very slight quillons made of metal. I can’t see whether or not there are slight projections of bone on the sides of the hilt under the metal.
Pertinax shows another bone hilt with metal quillons. Again, it is impossible to see what is under the metal clearly. Could it be a separate piece of bone laid crossways to the hilt to fill in the area below the metal?

Here is another kummiya with bone inserts

A new addition to the collection.
 

Finally found a decent cummiya.

A prestigious item, a good forged blade, ivory (not banned in my country), silver, and gold plated.

I welcome your comments.

Hi Yuri,

A most beautiful koummya, congrats! :cool: Are you sure that the handle is from ivory? Is there something missing at the handle?

Regards,
Detlef

In response to post #35 I dare to show you two of fife Koummiyas of my collection. Their dimensions are total length 450mm, blade length 230 mm, width of blades 23 mm and weight ca. 1000 g each.

These Koummyas come from the collection of the former, world-famous tennis champion Baron Gottfried von Cramm, born in 1909, who lived in Wispenstein Castle near Alfeld. In 1951, von Cramm founded a transport company for the cotton trade in Egypt. In the same year he married the then richest woman in the world, Barbara Hutton, as his fifth husband.

Hi Detlef, thank you!

I might be wrong about the ivory, but if it's sperm whale or walrus tusk, which was very rare in the Middle East and Morocco, the item's value increases significantly. And ivory was transported from Africa to ports in the Maghreb for several centuries.

Yes, there was probably something on the handle, but how can we tell now? Although, note, it's the inside of the dagger.

I have a sperm whale tooth; I could make dagger handles.:)

Sincerely,
Yuri

Sorry Yuri,

It looks more than bone to my eyes, camel bone maybe?

Regards,
Detlef

Thanks, Detlef!

I'm not very knowledgeable about bone types, and I don't have a camel bone, so I can't compare.

Here's a photo for comparison:
Dha - elephant
Tooth - sperm whale

I'd appreciate any comments; I want to get to the bottom of this.

Sincerely,
Yuri

Hi Yuri,

At the hole of the back handle scale I see something like porousness as well at the side view so I guess that it is some sort of bone but like always I could be wrong.

Best regards,
Detlef

Thanks, Detlef!

The hole is sealed with glue; apparently, there used to be some kind of decoration there. I cleaned the hole a bit and examined it with a magnifying glass and flashlight. The structure is dense and non-porous, with no visible dentin. The thickness is similar to the ends of the handle.

Sincerely,
Yuri

I personally value craftsmanship and overall quality and esthetics above materials used. To me therefore whether the hilt is ivory or not would not be that important. Yuri's koummiya is very well made, with a good imported blade and quality silver fittings, and clearly an antique. That is enough for me to call it a great example. With all the regulatory issues surrounding endangered species, there are also advantages to not having certain materials. Even if ivory is legal in Russia today, all it takes is one change in legislation to find yourself in a potential tricky situation.

Agree completely with you, it's a very nice koummya and it's not very important from which material the handle is from. ;)

Like TVV said, your koummya is a very nice and high quality one, for me it wouldn't be too important from which material the handle is made! ;)

Best regards,
Detlef

I completely agree with you about the aesthetics and artistic value of the item. I haven't come across a decent kummiya in a long time; unfortunately, the market is flooded with cheap tourist specimens, which, in my opinion, only discredit this remarkable weapon. But it's always a good idea to explore all the nuances.

Regarding the imported blade, I don't entirely agree. I believe we underestimate the skill of Moroccan artisans, and not only Moroccan ones. Often, as soon as an extraordinary ethnographic object is discovered, the urge arises to label it as "imported."Regarding the imported blade, I don't entirely agree. I believe we underestimate the skill of Moroccan artisans, and not only Moroccan ones. Often, as soon as an extraordinary ethnographic object is discovered, the urge arises to label it as "imported."

Sincerely,
Yuri

While I can understand Russian, most others here cannot, and we should stick to English so they can follow the discussion.

You could be right about the blade. There were however blades imported from France after Morocco became a protectorate, like the ones marked at the forte with a steamship or Napoleon III's face, etc. and the Latin numerals seem to point in that direction. It does not mean that local smiths could not make good blades, simply the combination of factory mass produced blades of good steel quality available at an affordable price created a market for imports.

[QUOTE=TVV;300633]While I can understand Russian, most others here cannot, and we should stick to English so they can follow the discussion.

I'm sorry, it was a mistake.