Since I am not a camera buff (nor do I buff cameras :p ) I will comment on the keris at hand. I love the hilt of the first one - looks like bronze to me. the other one I may lean also toward new being treated - notice that the dapur is not affected but would have been if corroded by time. The blade is simply too clean IMHO, especially for truly corroded bronze (in the ground no less :rolleyes: ).

Also, I wonder if the "princess" in the first hilt is a naga spirit.

During my last trip in Yogya i found another similar hilt. The seller told me it comes undergrownd near Klanten (between Yogya and Solo). This is the hilt. Have any kerisfriends seen another like this? Can anyone help me to understand? Is this a keris hilt or another hilt?

Marco, during the 1980's there were a lot metal handles coming out of East Jawa that bore similarities to the one you have posted a pic of. I actually met one of the fellows involved in their manufacture when he was making a delivery to Solo. They did not make only handles, but all sorts of things from the bronze period. I do not mean "bronze age", I mean the period when bronze was still being made and used. I later saw a lot of these little statuettes and mirrors and bells offered in very respectable auction houses, and upmarket antique shops in Sydney, as genuine.

They used various material, sometimes it was just patinated brass, but for the better, more expensive pieces they used genuine bronze that had been reclaimed from old gongs.The good pieces were to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from the real thing, the patination, adhering deposits, everything, was perfect. Possibly an expert in bronzes could pick them, but I tend to doubt even this.

These people are still producing things that are being sold in Solo and Bali, at least, however, I have not seen any handles from them for a long time, maybe ten years or more. I have never seen a handle of exactly the same pattern as the one that you have.

When considering the realities of antiquities coming out of Indonesia it always very wise to realise that if there is a market for something, Indonesia can produce it. The production of a particular ceramics manufacturer is impossible for an ordinary person to buy. Why? Because he has at least five years worth of orders to fill for antique dealers right across the world. Archaic forms of keris, such as the keris buda and similar are produced by a gentleman who lives near Malang, and are so excellent that I have almost been sucked in by them twice; only by taking the blades home and spending hours on examination was I able to come to the opinion that they were forgeries. Bronzes? Well, I've already covered those, I think.As for "Majapahit gold" :- approach with caution and be prepared to pay only normal gold price.

Marco, your handle may well be genuine, it is impossible to tell from a pic, and maybe equally impossible in the hand. Possibly your best indicator is how much you paid for it. If the cost ruined your budget for the trip, it is likely to be genuine.

Oh yes--- the name of that town is Klaten.

Thanks a lot Alan for your answer.
Also I have many unsolved doubts :confused:
I showed the first hilt to an art-tribal's seller in Milan and he said "probalby original" but, of course, for me is not enought.
But in Kerobokan (Bali) i saw years ago another similar hilt (jointed to a litlle piece of rusty corroded iron) in a shop very famous for his reliability in tribal art dealer world (I woul like to know if, in the same condition, iron and bronze are the same corrosion or a different corrosion's speed)
I found the second hilt in a home outside Yogya. The seller had a lot of nice old wood and ivory Cirebon, Tegal, Madura hits... and together the unclean bronze second hilt under discussion: his prize was the same of a honest ivory hilt (but... of course ... in all world the prize changes according to the numbers of successions an object has).
A strange matter that probably is not good for an old aged confirm is that the hilts are enourmously alike.
Thanks again and sorry for my english
Marco

Nothing wrong with your English, Marco---damn sight better than my Italian.

Anyway--- ferric material corrodes much more quickly than brass or bronze. Most of the genuine old excavated bronzes that I have seen have been fairly thin and light, and mostly seem to be filled with a clay-like substance, rather than jabung or damar. The smooth parts of the material are very smooth and have nice even, dark patina.Old bronzes in general have a very refined, "gentle" feel to them---something that is difficult for me to put into words--- its almost as if when hold the object you can feel the age.This handle of yours just looks too heavy and unrefined. I could be 100% wrong, I'm no expert on bronzes, but to my eye it just doesn't look like genuine stuff I have seen and handled. If the price approximated ivory, that was probably not high enough. I have seen quite small , genuine bronzes change hands within the trade, in Jawa, for very impressive money.Something else too:- can you still see the lines of the cast and has the surface been well finished after casting? If you can still see the joints and there has been minimum finishing it is certain to be modern.Have you tested the material? Brass or bronze? If brass it is modern.

After more than 40 years of buying things in Indonesia, I no longer take a great deal of notice of the "supporting evidence" when I buy. Anybody dealing on even the lowest commercial level knows what they can get for their goods, and the way something is presented --- for instance, with adhering deposits, or stubs of corroded iron--- is just so much window dressing.

In this picture the two hits are near . Excluding the base they are pratically two of a kind :confused: .
The beauty, harmony are on the contrary great :)

Pak Alan,

I think KLATEN is a town in Melby whilst CLAYTON is a town between Prambanan and Delanggu.

warm salam,
OeS

Pak Alan,

Sorry for sending a poor joke. Yes, all like bronze period statues you can order or purchase in a small village near Klaten: CEPER. You will get "real and genuine" statues from bronze period. Why? When you ask its genuinity, CEPER VILLAGERS will say "IN MY VILLAGE, now, IS STILL IN BRONZE AGE"

Just show Yvest Laurent bag to Tanggul Anginers OR Keris Kanjeng Kiai Smith to Aengtongtongers OR bronze/steel statue to Ceperers, you will realize that Indonesian can make everything... even nuclear if permitted and there is someone orders it :)

warm salam,
OeS

OK Pak Oesman---I thought you were on arak there for a minute.

Yeah, I've seen the Ceper stuff. My memory of it is that it is not as finely finished (read:- as cleverly deceitful) as the pieces I've seen from East Jawa. I was told exactly where these were being made, but I've forgotten.

I actually have a relative who owns some factories in Bandung one of which produces very excellent ripoffs of very famous Italian handbags and leather goods, another produces Italian shoes. They do not get the labels applied in Bandung, but are shipped out to the orderer who then completes the process of forgery.

You know, back in the 1970's you could trade Levis jeans for anything in Bali, and it didn't really matter if they were a bit worn. These days I always buy one or two pairs of jeans every time I go to Bali. Mostly these "Bali Levis" are better cut, better sewn, and the denim is better wearing than the real thing.But you need to shop around a bit, because there's some rubbish being offered too.

My big complaint with Indonesian manufacture of anything is that they do not control quality consistently. There is a pattern that repeats and repeats and repeats:- the product will be made, and after a teething period it will usually achieve excellence, but once that excellence has been achieved there will be a slow and imperceptible deterioration until it reaches the point where the orderer will not accept it. Then the producer will raise the quality again to a level where it is barely acceptable. This happens on a one-man, small scale level, and exactly the same in big business. It is a "pasar" approach to trade, in that it seeks to provide the minimum product for the maximum price, and has been the subject of several government and trade organisation investigations and reports. Pity, because the potential is there.

That nuclear business worries me a bit. I saw the other day they're going ahead with the reactor up on the north coast. Not good . Not good at all.