Thank you for the detailed reply. I was not saying that Zhou made a restoration, I am wondering if one had been done sometime in the 19th c. and whether the Ming attribution was for the blade, which could be Ming, or for the whole piece, whose fittings look more 19th century. It is not just the round pommel that is usually but not necessarily 19th century; it is also the way the patterns are cut into the fittings. I freely admit I am a beginner at this, and my experience is only with the more commonly seen things. That is why I am so curious about what appears to me as Qing being labeled Ming. I would like to know what makes it Ming so I can see those characteristics in the future on other pieces. Dating by style is a very uncertain technique but the only one available for many pieces. I need every clue I can get.
Thanks,
Josh

You're welcome :)
I have no clue if those fittings were added at a later stage. The sword was classified as Ming, so we went with what was on Zhou's own Museum. To my Chinese culture experience, things are often repeated as I said before.
Chinese Song painters imitated Tang masters, Ming artists imitated Song Masters and so forth. We see the same confucianist inspired approach in Japan, in that there are only 5 sword schools until today, so it is very difficult to define when a pattern really appeared but it can suddenly sprout to fashion :).
An example is the fact that Tang Dynasty women

http://www.asianart.com/israel/large/05.jpg

and their headress and clothes with a cut and a ribbon like Josephine would wear many centuries later

http://www.artnet.com/magazine/revie...ern4-16-3s.jpg

Have definitely influenced Korean national dress and as the ribbon got wider and wider, it gave birth to the Kimono.

This is what makes history and swords so interesting as one can extrapolate into other areas.
Sorry about my rants, but I love this kind of connections. :)

Absolutely, stylistic anachronisms are common and a source of much interest. One of my favorite areas of study is the connection between Tibetan and Chinese swords. The Tibetan swords maintained the Tang dynasty style blade that early Japanese blades were based on. There are many examples of styles appearing hundreds of years from when they were most common. There is a whole class of usually short jian with iron fittings that are in a Ming style but which may be late nineteenth century. I have not talked with anyone who can definitively tell when they were made. In my own collection I have a Yi minority chopper that looks exactly like the Song dynasty shoudao that are depicted in Thomas Chen's website. I am fairly certain my chopper was made between 1920 and 1950.

One of my great hopes is that the carbon dating techniques being developed for steel will find their way to museums so that we can finally have some definitive dates.

(http://radiocarbon.library.arizona.e...pplication/pdf)

Josh

Antonio,

Why is it that just the tip was polished? It's a beautiful effect, but seems sort of curious. I don't know if this one is typical, but it also seems to be a "deeper" polish than the lighter polish Zhou described, which is intended to look like clouds (as opposed to moving water, I suppose).

Mark, I think we're seeing an artifact of the lighting and angle. The way the sword was photographed looks like it highlights the tip, rather than the blade. A slight adjustment would likely blurr the tip and bring the blade polish into focus.

Ah. So its the fact that it has that facetted tip geometry, not that the tip is polished differently from the rest of the blade.

Hi Josh,

We are in total agreement. :)
I'm totally alien to Tibetan blades so I'm not the right person to ask.
So far I understand that the Silk Road played an important part on the connection, but not necessarily exclusive.
We once thought about the Met in NY for collaboration but the Weapons curator was busy with an exhibition on Tibetan swords. You should check out about it.
;)

Mark,

It was polished differently from the Chinese traditional way, but there was a change in geometry as you say below. I purposedly focused the tip and my own shadow darkened the lower part of the blade, so Andrew is right.

This would give birth to the so called yokote in the Japanese blade.
In the Jomon period chokuto both from China and Korea (ring pommel swords) were used mainly for stabbing, hence the ring to use the hand for pressing/pushing.

Many people think of Katana just for cutting, forgetting the stabbing purpose.

Hi ,

Feedback to say that my wife has phoned me to say that the catalogue from Macau has arrived !

So all seems to be in order re purchasing from the link recommended.


Can't wait to open the packet .


Thanks everyone

I am FREAKED! (and not just a freak :p ). Even my wife was impressed (and her eyes glaze over when you say "sword" :eek: ) . Better than I was expecting - being used to small flimsy exhibition catalogs. Pictures are fantastic and large - a great resource for me. I love it. Your folks should be commended.

Maraming Salamat! :D

My copy arrived yesterday as well, it is fantastic. I could become a lot stronger carrying it around :D The people at the Macau end sorted out my ordering errors without any fuss at all. Very highly recommended on all fronts.Thanks to everyone involved.
cheers
DrD

MARVELLOUS!!
 

:D TODAY HAD ARRIVED MY COPY AND I´N VERY HAPPY!!! :D :D :D
THANKS!!
CARLOS

Magandand Umaga, Kaibigan,

I guess we like to freak out people. The thing is that Macau is a tax paradise and the Chinese are extremely laborious people like all South East Asians, so they work really hard and because there are no taxes, the machinnery is much more affordable and really high tech. Then the paper is Japanese and again it does not suffer taxes, so the end product will cost less than 1/8 of what it normally would cost in Europe or North America.

Well, thanks my friend, but I have in the past refused commendations but you guys who contributed are the guilty ones :)

I'm really glad you all kept in the boat, because what counts is a honest and honorable stance in life and we do appreciate your trust in us at the Museum :)

Maraming Salamat to you too ;)

I'm so very happy that things went well.
Macau Post Office is one of the fastest in the world to my knowledge.
It is amazing that the mail men don't know Portuguese at all, but the mail never gets undelivered.

Oh, and Kong Seng, the Mother Company from where you ordered is very reliable. Otherwise the Museum would not use it.

Thank you :)

Buenos dias Carlos,

Estoy muy contento de saber que hay llegado bien :)
Did you order from Macau?

Thanks :)

thanks
 

I BOUGHT IT VIA INTERNET, IN SHADOW OF LEAVES.
THANKS AGAIN
CARLOS