A very good point, David. I always advocate for stones being take to a jeweler for identification (along with metals). Clears up a lot of problems with sacred meaning, value, etc.

The Pedok is taken off
 

Nechesh - thank you very much for your reply. Any help and any opinion is valuable for me, until any books about this weapons are out of my sight.

Here it is - THE PENDOK IS TAKEN OFF. And what do we see?
In my opinion the sheath is made of newest wood, so probably it is reconstructed. The warangka is damaged and probably this is the reason why someone took off the pendok and changed the sides - just to hide under the deity's head this bad looking crack. You won't probably see it on photos, but this crack is shining with glue leaking out from the other side. The warangka is glued to the rest of the sheath. I wouldn't be surpised if it was repaired crude European, but could European made such part of the sheath? - or do you think it's Indonesian work?

I was right - the pendok is made of gilted brass. The head is probably cast of brass. There you can also see the brownish stains on the other side of the head - which are probably the result of oxide.

About the stones - I must admit I'm confused - you're not the first person who doubt in "rock crystal theory". The expert was "quoted" not without the reason :) - although she is still expert but not jeweler nor gemologist :(. I'll look further.

On one of the photos you can see how badly is the head unriveted. There is a chance it will be repaired! :)

Best regards!

Wolviex,

Now it will be guessing. It is very good possible that the wrangka wasn't original either. It is quite obvious that the wrangka was remade to fit this keris. The wrangka is made of kaju pellet wood and so is the ukiran but the structure of the wood of the wrangka is different than the structure of the wood of the ukiran. Probably the previous owner would have had the same thought like you have, a nice matching couple. It wouldn't surprise me if only the pendok and the keris itself are original and as you know the wooden parts of keris were frequently replaced. Just like Nechesh, I strongly vote for Madura.

Inten are diamonds used in mendaks, on pendoks and as the eyes of such masks. Don't get dollarsigns in your eyes by the remark diamonds because inten are very cheap and low carat mostly comming from Kalimantan.

Thank you Hank for explain the "inten" word!

The dollars didn't shine in my eyes :D - I'm not the owner of this thing...

BTW. I'll post the picture of kris with pendok on the proper side when it will come back to me from conservator workshop.

Regards!

I can hardly wait

You'll have to - it will take some time ;)

Certainly a Madurese attribution would clear up some latent questions about this piece. The construction of the pendok in particular seems very "un-Balinese" to me and the form of the wranka is somewhat different from the usual Balinese godoan style cross-piece. The mendak also is certainly unusual, for Bali or Madura for that matter. It has the flavor of being only partial - perhaps part of a larger broken original.

A better sense of the scale of the piece would also be nice. No measurements? How have we come this far without measurements?

Speculation about the "originality" of the parts is at best, problematic, as we all know these things were changed on various whims at various times. That said, the gandar is very likely a replacement. Whether the repair was done in Indonesia or Europe will have much to do with what kind of wood was used. Indonesians usually use light weight, cheap wood for gandars when they are covered by a full pendok. I have a Yogyanese keris with a very similar gandar. Looks like balsa wood, though the rest of the keris is very fine quality indeed. And the workmanship is good. My guess - made in Indonesia.

I would hope that you will advocate strongly for the insertion of a new strip of black velvet or other, similar material behind the openwork of the pendok. Not exactly kosher for many conservation departments - or curators for that matter. I however always advocate restoration - as long as the methods and materials match traditional ones and the work is reversible. A good goldsmith will easily be able to match and replace the missing rivet holding the topengan to the top of the pendok.

As for the significance and mystical importance of the ganja iras - I'm afraid Nechesh, I cannot cite chapter and verse, and I'm too lazy to digging around to find it but I'd be shocked if no books mention it. Its one of those bits of knowledge one picks up on, talking to keris people around the archipelago. Certainly in Java, Sumatra and the Peninsula the ganja iras is, in my experience, usually spoken of in terms of its "speacialness" and this is usually connected to some magic property. If it were merely a matter of cheaper and easier, most keris would be ganja iras. Which is of course, precisely what has happened in the case of the Moro keris in the 20th century.

Now ganja hilang on the other hand - that's a completely different matter :D

The pattern on the blade looks a little like pamor sumsum buron.

Well Dave, be prepared to be shocked. :eek: :) While i have certainly found passing mention of gonjo iras it is usually just to say something like, this blade is "gonjo iras meaning that it was formed in a single piece with the blade" (The Invincible Krises, pg 104). Never have i come across an explanation for this form. While i appreciate the inclination towards laziness (i am a card carrying member of that club myself ;) ) i am afraid that "chapter and verse" would be really handy here. I am also afraid (much to my chagrin) that i have not had the opportunity to pick up any first-hand information taking with people around the archipelego, but those i have discussed this subject with who have had that opportunity (the dreaded second-hand information :eek: ) have not come to your conclusion. Though i don't necessarily agree with this train of thought, it would seem that the popular mystical belief of today as put forth by Harsrinuksmo would be that keris gonjo iras are not true keris at all. See rule #1 on this website: http://www.geocities.com/javakeris/kerisology.htm
Of course, what is believed true by the mystical community in regards to keris today is not necessarily what was believed last century or the one before that or the one before that. Still, i would like to find at least a single written reference that directly addresses this subject.

Definition of iras: short form of se-iras or in one piece or as one with. In other words keris ganja iras do have a ganja. It is one with or forged together with the rest of the blade.

Do come out and visit the tanah air some time Nechesh. Smell the air, taste the water, kick the dirt around a little and talk to some folks.

Well, you know Dave, thanks to the modern technology known as the internet, i do get to "talk to some folks". Some of them are very knowledgable indeed, they just happen to disagree with you. But their source of this point of knowledge is just as vague as yours, so being the reasonable and inquistive Philistine that i am, i question it as well. I am not saying you are wrong, i am just seeking references to the truth. Besides it just being a point of interest it is also an import question to answer in regards to determining the origins of the keris presented in this thread. If you are too lazy (your own word) or sure of yourself to take the trouble to look them up (as you have implied that they exist) to the edification of myself and this forum, that's just fine with me. I will continue my search for some real and tangible data elsewhere. Sorry, but i'm just not willing to take your word for it. And i don't particularly appreciate your sarcastic and snarky responses to my questions and statements, as this is not the way i have carried myself throughout this discussion.

DAHenkel and Nechesh - dear forumites!
Please bury the hatchet - I was so happy because of your help, answers and ongoing discussion that your possible quarrel at this thread will make me very sad :( .
I hope for your further help !

Best regards for both of you !

" Please bury the hatchet - I was so happy because of your help, answers and ongoing discussion that your possible quarrel at this thread will make me very sad .
I hope for your further help !"

Well Wolviex , you have beat me to it .
As Smokey Robinson sang : "I second that emotion ." :D

As far as i am concerned there is no hatchet to bury. I am just seeking solid evidence to yet another of the many mysteries the keris presents. In that i wish only to be treated with respect and equality. If am am mistaken about the tone i am sensing from Dave's replies, then i am sorry, my bad.

Here is another quote on gonjo iras fro the "Insiklopedi Keris" by Bambang Harsrinuksmo. It is broadly translated, so if anyone can provide a more accurate one please do:

"GANJA IRAS or ganja janggelan,the name for a gonjo that is one with the wilah(that is, the body of the blade) . In a keris that is gonjo iras the dividing line between the sorsoran of the wilah and the gonjo is only a shallow line (or scratch).
Gonjo iras keris are usually plain in form, not keris of beautiful workmanship. Rarely are they of good quality.Keris sajen, that in the writings of westerners are called 'keris Mojopahit', normally are gonjo iras.
In Riau, West Kalimantan and Malaysia, some people call gonjo iras 'gonjo menumpu' ( menumpu is from 'tumpu': footing or support, so gonjo menumpu has the sense of supporting the wilah)"

That's pretty much it on the subject. What i do find interesting is not necessarily what he says, but what he doesn't say. The late Harsrinuksmo was known for being quite the protaganist of "modern" keris mysticism. From what i can tell, his book has become something of a bible on keris for enthusiasts in Indonesia and it is nothing if not liberally peppered with concepts on the mystical attributions of keris. Yet the man wrote no such claims for gonjo iras. Obviously we are all aware of the mystical attributions to keris sajen and keris picit which we often find in the gonjo iras form, but Wolviex's keris is not one of those, it is a relatively normal type except for the gonjo iras. If, indeed, this is meant to be a mystical or talismanic type of keris i find it surprising that Harsrinuksmo would have failed to mention it. Again, this is not conclusive evidence. I would ask anyone with access to various Indonesian or Dutch texts to check them for references and bring them forth. There doesn't seem to be much in the English texts.

:) I think my ganja iras keris is beautiful. :) Its of Malay origin, so don't expect any pamor (actually, it has pamor kulit semangka, if you look carefully at the middle portion).

And Adni recently acquired (and sold) a Bugis keris (possibly of Sumatran origins) of the ganja iras form, luk 5 as well. That was a beautiful blade complete with the famed Bugis sturdiness. Its a full featured blade with kembang kacang, sogokan (depan, belakang), greneng, and well controlled pamor. Interesting cross section too as it starts out 'flat oval' at the base, then progress to typical Bugis hexagonal cross-section, then to diamond cross-section near the tip.

I recall seeing and handling at least another 2 ganja iras blades, also of Sumatran origins, with good dapur, beautiful luks, and are well-dressed.

And also, the most amazing one I've seen was a Balinese ganja iras keris more than 3 years ago in Adni's shop. It had pamor similar to junjung darjat (if I remember correctly). I dubbed it the 'zebra' keris then because there were so many peaks that they almost resembled a zebra's strips. Of course, no offense to the blade, but that was a nice, full featured Balinese blade too. The keris was dressed in high quality pelet which I dubbed the 'leopard skin' because it looked like the spots on a cloud leopard. I told Adni that the keris is like a mini-safari, because it was topped off with a Hanuman hilt. :)

The "Ensiklopedi Keris" is an authoritative book, but I would read it within the Javanese context, mostly.

Btw, the symbolism of ganja and peksi is towards the lingam and yoni, male and female. I have heard that sometimes a female pandai besi would forge a ganja iras keris and the keris would still be considered 'complete' because the pandai herself is the 'female/yoni' aspect. That is one aspect which I would consider to be on the mystical side.

Shortcuts or not, what makes a good beautiful keris would be overall workmanship. We all know there are many bad-looking kerises with ganja. :)

Hi Kai Wee. I didn't post Harsrinuksmo's quote in support of his comment on the implying a lack of beauty in gongo iras.I, as well, find your example to be quite attractive and i own one that i also find beautiful. I also don't mean to suggest that "Ensiklopedi Keris" is the definitive text on keris. My only point here is that i would have thought that if anybody were to mention a mystical or talismanic purpose specific to gonjo iras it would be Harsrinuksmo due to the nature of his approach to the keris.
I am aware or the lingam/yoni symbolism of the pesi and gonjo that is certainly a part of the "modern" mystical philosophy of the keris, though i wonder when this concept was actually introduced. I don't think there is much to support that this was the original purpose for the seperate gonjo. I find you theory about female pandai interesting and wonder if anyone else has similar information.

After conservation
 

Dear Friends!

I would like to thank once more for your commitment in my thread, your thoughts are very helpful and important for me.

At the end I would like to present to you the same keris with pendok on the proper side, with three (not one) rivets, and with the complete material under the pendok.

Thank you once more, of course feel free to discuss new pics :)

Best regards to you!

WOW that looks so much better ....drooool....drooool nice work :D

And I forgot - conservation was made not by me, but our museal specialists - best wishes for them !

Most Excellent
 

Three cheers for you Wolviex , without your instigation it may never have happened . :D

WOW!!! Nice restoration. I am still curious if you ever got a more definitive I.D. on the stones. They still look far too brilliant to be rock crystal to me. Also wonder if you were ever able to determine exactly where this piece was collected from? Give your specialists a pat on the back form us, eh. :)

Hi Wolviex,

I feel happy for the keris. Could you shake the hands of the museum specialists for me? Tell them they did great. :)

Thank you for this kind words, I appreciate it. I'm happy you like it :)

Regards

Not to re-hash what we've already gone over before but I am still not at all convinced that this is a Madurese keris. There are more than a few examples that are very similar to this piece and - with the notable exception of the highly unreliable Hasrinuksmo they are attributed to Bali.

I'm not denying that the topengan may have been used in Madura though I would contend that by at least the 19th century that had ceased. We have in our museum's collection an excavated example dated to about the 15th century from East Java. I know the blade does not look like a typical Balinese keris but then again I've seen more than a few keris like that from Bali. I suspect that in most cases these are either very early examples, ie. 16th or 17th c. or perhaps even later imports or trade blades.

I'd really love to hear what Empu Kumis has to say about this piece because among us he has perhaps the most keris experience on Bali. However, in general, can anyone show me a similar piece that is accurately and incontrovertibly provenanced to Madura?

The restoration is well done. The ones who performed it did a good job. But the credits are also to you Wolviex. You brought the attention of them to this piece.

The wood of this keris is called Timoho and the type of Timoho is Timaha Pelet Ceplok Banteng or Belang Sapi, meaning Timoho wood with stains like the markings on a Banteng or a Cow, although in Bali the wood is called Purnamasadha, I believe the Latin name is Kleinhovia Hospita L. The same wood is used for the sheath and also for the danganan which is in the cecekahan style. This type of Timoho is believed by some to bring prosperity.

The ganja iras is an indiction that the keris was made by a village rather than a Kraton Mpu. It might also mean that it was a very old blade as the dapur would seem to be a Java brojol ganja iras. The dapur brojol is one of the oldest shapes of keris blades. The fact that the warangka was not made for this blade indicates that an antique dealer was involved. From a purely physical point of view the warangka with all the gold is more valuable than the blade. The owner of the blade would have made a new warangka specially for his blade if he felt that he needed one. Having a warangka that fits perfectly is an important part of the symbolism of the keris.

Salam keris

is it possible that this keris has a seperate ganga? it appears that if there was a scratch line it has been layered unto. doesn't seem to layers deterioting off as much as layers added & then deterioting? has there ever been the practice of adding layers to a old blade; for whatever purpose?

Up

Hi Wolviex,

Reading your initiated topic about these highly desirable krisses I came across a pic in the collection of the Tropen Museum in Amsterdam. Seems like a twin to me! The pic is rather of poor quality.

Another look-a-like from the museum.

I have moved this thread to the Keris Forum, which did not exist when it was first opened.
Paul, are there also images of the blades for these keris on the museum website.
I think many, if not most of us, came around to the belief that the original keris posted may well be from Madura rather than Bali. What origins did the Tropen Museum attribute them to?

The collection of the museum can be reached thru this link:
http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/Default.aspx

It is hard to find what you're looking for among the vast majority of pics as the they are so small. I could only trace back one of them. There was a brief description of the outer features and Bali was mentioned as a provenance.
This pic of the blade shows kinatah but that's just about all you can tell about it.

Thanks Paul. I have surfed the Tropen Museum site a number of times.
The photo as uploaded here is a bit too small to tell much, but it certainly looks like it could be a Bali blade.
If you read through this thread you will see why some of us thought that perhaps the originally posted keris may have been from Madura instead.

Fully agree and this 'high rank' Madura kris (?) definitely shows typical Madurese features.
The kinatah is 18 or maybe 22 carat gold? Additional kinatah makes it a precious piece. There is red 'dust' in the gilt pendok, just for decoration purpose or is there a relation with a Keraton?

Hello Paul,
The kinatah of your kris looks recently made or refurbished from the pics, and the blade may be Javanese?
I attach the pic of a Javanese kris with an old blade but a recently made (about 1990) silver pendok with topengan.
Regards

Kinatah not very old I agree nor superbly made but blade has the perfect fit into a typical ladrang capu slot opening so why Javanese? NG pamor is a wellknown Madurese pamor.

Additional pic of slot.

Checked the blade and it measures from tip to ganja: 37 cm and showing a wide base and clotchy pamor so doubtfree a Madurese blade.

Well Paul, i won't make any claims of origin since the photos provided don't give me a very good look at this blade, but Madura is right next to Jawa and it is considered a part of East Jawa. I would not be surprised to find a few Javanese blades in custom-fit Madurese dress. So that the blade is neatly fitted to the sheath is not really an indication that the blade was made in Madura.
I also don't see why you site the blade length as evidence of Madurese origin. 37 cm is well within the expected lengths of Javanese blades as well.
I am having a hard time seeing this kinatah as "superbly made", but maybe we just need to see closer, sharper images to understand what you see with the blade in hand.
BTW, we are here in this thread already so we should continue here, but the only similarity this keris has to the ones under discussion is the topengan. This keris probably would have been better suited to its own separate thread. Just something to think about for future postings. ;)