Ethnographic Arms & Armour - Katzbalger - request for assistance in identifying blade mark

Ethnographic Arms & Armour (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php)

- European Armoury (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=12)

- - Katzbalger - request for assistance in identifying blade mark (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27086)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando (Post 264222)

Not so important but, James Mann (Wallace Coll.) doesn't see those as 'castle' marks, but 'rake-like' marks (A741, A743, A747) :o.

Well noted Fernando! and I have always thought the simile's used by him and several others for marks fascinating , 'very Rorschach' :)
cogwheels, twig, hogsback........the name game seldom touched in the discussions on edged weapons over terms they are called by.

Mann's catalog is fantastic, and one of the most valuable references I have ever bought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix (Post 264202)

For whats its worth, Milan is also a Catholic Archdiocese headed by an Archbishop whose symbol is a double cross. The Archdiocese of Milan is the metropolitan see of the ecclesiastical province of Milan, which includes the suffragan dioceses of Bergamo, Brescia, Como, Crema, Cremona, Lodi, Mantova, Pavia, and Vigevano. (source: Wikipedia).

I would just make the observation that the Katzbalger under discussion has a Germanic looking blade (Ive heard similar diamond cross section shaped blades described as Saxon in style). Solingen was wellknown to add other famous bladesmiths marks on their blades. The Italian swords shown so far with the trident mark all look typically Italian: flat and wide with very shallow fullers. Its possible of course that the bladesmith was very versatile and also produced Germanic looking blades for the Germanic markets, or even traveled to Solingen to work there (?), although these guilds were pretty much closed shops so he would need special invitation.

Well observed Victrix! and you have brought up a very salient point. The Solingen situation was indeed very controlled, and the guilds very powerful.
There are references which describe limitations to the number of swords, knives blades which could be produced in regulated periods of time.

While it is known that there were instances of a number of German smiths who went to Spain, France and Holland to work (not aware of to any Italian centers)....the situation does not seem to have been reciprocal.
The 'influences' of Italian arms and armor does seem to have been well established as conveyed into these other arms centers, and in many cases, as for example Spain, was provincially present in Italy, their arms were well known in Spain and its dominions.

Returning to the case in point, the observation that latten was not used by Italian makers or artisan engravers is intriguing, and I was unaware that this otherwise European affectation not carried into Italian centers.,

with post #36 I didn't mean Italy specifically but generally punched blade marks are not inlaid with latten. (of course with exceptions).
This applies to both Italy and other countries such as Germany
The italian examples of the Castle tower mark are all punched, the mark of the katzbalger in post 1 is "incised" and inlaid with latten.

the orb and cross is (more) common on blades from solingen, eg several members of the Wundes family used these, Iohann Wundes in the second half of the 16th century. The two examples of orb and cross in this threath , attributed to someone else, I believe are the marks of Iohannes Wundes.

Then the blade geometry, a ricasso and a diamond shaped cross section can be found on the most famous katzbalger in Vienna, but also on a couple katzbalgers in Dresden, probably all of german origin.

@ fernando attached a tower and a rake ;-)

best,

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp (Post 264248)

...@ fernando attached a tower and a rake ;-...

So it could be that Sir James Mann was not such romantic knight; more of a fan of gardening ;).

.

the katzbalger of Ulrich von Schellenberg mentioned in post #43

From all Landsknecht swords world wide which I know or ever saw the most beautiful Katzbalger! Typicall in form and shape for this type around 1515/20! Great pics, thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando (Post 264253)

So it could be that Sir James Mann was not such romantic knight; more of a fan of gardening ;).

.

Well, understandable considering the English love of and expertise in gardening. Maybe if he he had an ovicultural background, he might have seen a sheep-comb:

Religious Significance