Thanks to everyone for remarking on these interesting firearms. As I am not typically a collector of such, everything written here is food for thought with me.

Thank you, Norman, for that great posting on Leige production! It would seem that there are still questions on some of these pieces and more research needs to be done...but we are off to a good start here!

There still appears some confusion over the ELG over a star in an oval.
This stamp is still used, or was as late as 1981 for muzzle -loading black powder arms.

The Crowned mark is for Definitive Black Powder and Military Proof.
This information from the booklet put out by the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London, and The Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House.
My copy is from August 1981, so things May have changed since then!

Very best,
Richard.

Richard, this Liege marks universe is not an easy thing to decipher ... at least for me. I know that, in a simplistic manner, the final proof mark ELG * in an oval lasted until circa 1893, when it was added with a crown over the said ELG* in an oval, which lasted until 1920. Only that this crowned version had two sizes, depending on the type of gun.
I hope this helps ... a little.


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Jim, i will not further soak the thread with unrelated (or colateral) issues. I will therefore send you e-mail on the subject :cool:.

Thank you Richard for noting this, apparently the markings have a bit more dimension having these factors set the variation with black powder, nitro and other terms pretty much unknown to the firearms uninitiated (myself incl).

Well noted Fernando, and thank you for sending me details on activity in Liege where indeed certain weapon forms were commissioned and would have been marked at factory. Its always interesting to see the many aspects that surround a topic even when not directly on topic, the learning curve never ends!! :)

Danish pirates!
 

Just another interesting tidbit going on during the time these pistols started hitting the market. Hey, I gotta get in my pirate barb whenever I can, right!:D Just saying that these pistols, if funneled through Dutch channels, might have ended up in all manner of hands!


https://www.napoleon-series.org/mili.../c_danish.html

here an intersting offer of the Bannermann catalogue of 1925

I've handled an old Bannerman catalog many years ago and actually took a tour on the Hudson, sailing right past the remnants of his castle complex. His catalogs actually contained a lot of amazing items on the cheap back in the day! Scottish swords, m1796's by the dozen! Even ethnographic stuff! You just don't see those kind of numbers today! If I could only step back in time- :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p

Don't forget: The last shirt has no pockets! :shrug:

Dear Fernando,

The proof marks are as you show in the catatlog, but this does not mean that the earlier mark disappeared, it was merely retained for muzzle -loading arms, up to at least 1981.
The one you show in the photo is interesting, as it has the Crowned ELG mark, for military arms, Plus, the Crowned R for Rifled arms.
V good to see them both !

Kind regards,
Richard.

Standing corrected ...
 

Dear Richard,

From a well established French house i could read in the original language what, being translated reads as follows;

The ELG marking is the regulatory hallmark of the Liège proofhouse. This punch has evolved over time. These three letters were inscribed in a vertical oval between 1811 and 1893 and then still (puis dans toujour) in a vertical oval but surmounted by a crown from 1893 to the present day.

By reading the term 'evolved' and 'still in a vertical oval but surmounted by a crown', i inferred that the previous symbol ceased being applied. I am ready to say that i was driven to the wrong conclusion, once you have different evidence.
All Belgian guns i have had would have been made before the 1890's.

Dear Fernando,

It is difficult to resolve this my friend, when we both have different books that tell us different things. :-)
I do know I had a reproduction, and not very good quality musket, that had the ELG and star in the oval, and no crown, (Crowned would mean military arms my book says) The one I had was not military, and made possibly in the 1950's or 60's.

We will not fall out over this. It may be we have to accept that two sources tell us different facts. :-)

If I see this stamp on a reproduction arm, and can post it here, I will do so.

Kindest regards,
Richard.

Edited to say I fond this on -line.
It says exactly the same as the booklet put out by the Gunmakers Company Proof House, of London.

Very best,
Richard.

Dear Richard,
You are absolutely right in that we won't fall out over this intricate subject.
Yet finding the 'real thing' for everyone's perusal, would be useful... i believe.
As an ultimate move, i have e-mailed the Liege Museum Director, with hopes that he sends along an actual listing of Liege proof marks.Expecting it to be supported with a circumstancial text, given to the fact that, as my be seen in this LINK, some of these marks had a different meaning depending on the dates they were used.


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"some of these marks had a different meaning depending on the dates they were used."

You are absolutely correct my dear friend.
I look forward to hearing of the information from the proof House.

Stay warm and safe. Here it is minus 40C again! (This is the same temp, (minus 40, if degrees F too. Both feel cold.) :-)
Up north it has been minus 72 degrees....

No reason to feel cold wih those sauna temperatures, Richard. The real thing is over here, with 13C (55F) :rolleyes: .
Stay safe, you too :cool: .

half an hour ago:

You guys are killing me! We had only one day of snow here in the southern U.S. I am also hoping for some clarity on the Liege markings. I am still convinced that some of these pistols date to the period 1810 and later, per the original marking. We'll see...

Oh UDO!!! :)

Are there bears in your neighbourhood, Udo ? :eek:.

Naaa, they went south for warmer weather..

BAD NEWS ...
 

Claude Gaier, Director of the Liege Arms Museum, is deceased since the last January 3th.
Here the BIOGRAPHY of a great arms specialist.

PS
I have now sen t e-mail to the present museum curator.


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No, just a joke!

Interesting discussion on this pistol. Here is one that I own. The stock finish is almost completely worn off. Looks like someone was going to refinish it but never completed. But there is no evidence of later sanding. Also, it appears the lock and barrel were chemically cleaned sometime in the past.

I've always known this pistol by it's generic name of Belgium Navel Pistol, in use from about 1810 to 1835. I recall reading somewhere that this pistol was made by the thousands and sold everywhere. That Bannerman's early catalog had surplus still for sale probably attests to the quantity made.

Interesting the lack of a ramrod provision. My guess is that a separate loading rod suspended from a leather cord around the neck, was the thinking behind the pistol's design. But I may be wrong in that I've never seen what you might call a "European" type standardized loading rod for these pistols. Much like most of the pistols carried by troops in the Ottoman Empire. Combined with the use of pre-formed paper cartridges, re-loading is very quick. I can actually confirm this from a trial I did firing my pistol using this method. The separate rod around the neck is even more convenient than the later captured type ramrod.
On the other hand, as mentioned above, all of these pistols aboard a ship may have been loaded at the same time and then fired once during a ship-to-ship battle, and then used as a club or parrying piece.
The pistol is very robustly made. The front barrel wedge (versus a pin) is especially convenient. Just about every example I've seen is still, or can be easily returned to shooting condition today.

Rick

Woops. Forgot the photos.....

Is that some mark, Rick ?

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Hi Fernando

Yes, I seem to recall it is. But can't remember. Been a while since I've handled/fired it. I'll check it out when I get home tonight.

Rick

Hi Rick,
Any chance of dismounting the barrel on your pistol and photographing any marks in closeup plus of course the marks Fernando has already mentioned.
My Regards,
Norman.

and here is one with some marks

another one with a tugra on its barrel

and the next one with the mark of the Isfahan arsenal on its lockplate

and last a same pistol with an unknown signature at its lockplate - could eventually be a year?

Still you find dozens of them for sale out there, with their Liege marks ... one a gift for Captain Mark; the barrel engraved HMS ACHERON :cool: :D.

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So Udo was faster ... but i've got the ACHERON ;) .

Ahh, the Achercon! If only it were not spurious! :mad:
I finally took the barrel off of mine, but the only marking on it was 'HK'...

... And here is the (roughly translated) answer:

You are right, such correct information is not always easy to find, given the scope and complexity of the subject. It has been five months since i took office and i still 'often swim'. Having said that, i highly recommend a very reliable and well done site where you should find everything you need. They have also just published an encyclopedia in six volumes on the Liège armory that i have already ordered. This site is HERE.
Hoping that this site will meet your expectations, please receive, Mr. Viana, the expression of my warmest regards.

Löic Servais
Conservator

Kinda spurious I guess... :shrug:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Acheron

A bit of fantasy hurts no one. Here is the paddle sloop Archeron version, launched in 1838. Who knows the captain already had his Liege pistol and had its barrel engraved when he was assigned to this elegant vessel :cool: .

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Of course, Rick! You bring up a good point; more than one Acheron! Which means the marking could be legit. I was thinking of THE Acheron of Nelson's era-

Nelson was in command of the HMS VICTORY by then (1805) when he was killed.
Reason why i took a shot at the paddler (post #78 ).