While I do not wish to detract from the discussion, I think it only fair to point out, quid pro quo. that in my post #38 I did not say that 'illegible arabesques' were 'jibberish' appearing only on European and exotica items.

What I said was that 'arabesque', the term you used, and such 'attitudes' (again your term) were usually reserved for European and exotica items, with no mention of jibberish. The Arabesque term as you know is an art history term describing rhythmic patterns and interlaced foliage, often used to fill empty space or dynamically complete the composition.

When I used the term jibberish it was to describe 'previously held' notions that the thuluth calligraphy on Sudanese Mahdist weapons was jibberish, and noted that recent research found it was in fact tangible verses in repetition. Those instances were I believe the long ago discussions which I recall, as I was one who was inclined to agree in those times. Its amazing how much we learn as we get older and thanks to these kinds of details often shared in discussions here.

In returning to the topic if I may, add some other details I have found that might be of interest on these markings on these Algerian blades . In my notes I found another of these triple fuller blades, but in the location of blade noted......there is a name ZAUOE, spelled out, but in exactly the same location. The registers list this man as a gunmaker in Marseilles 1757-61.
Obviously a Maghrebi name, but in France, and it is notable that gun makers often, even typically, outfitted blades.

In looking at the fantastic array of weapons from Valletta that Teodor shared, in this huge assortment of nimsha, none of them had these markings in that blade quadrant. Could it be that these examples predated the use of such markings? or that perhaps they were never in the regions (Maghrebi littoral or Marseilles?) where such markings were used.
Perhaps rather than makers marks, or arsenal, these were outfitters stamps in one of the entrepots either Meditteranean or Maghrebi.

Just more food for thought, and these considerations I think might be important to the thorough examination of Charles' sword.

There are some old hypothesis about nimchas being an evolution of Italian XVth century stortas.

Some circunstancial evidence.

Dear Jim, it is i alone, who doesn't much to offer on this topic.
Concerning the actual difference in nomenclature between 'arabesque' and 'jibberish' ...
I have used arabesque (from the Italian ((also Portuguese))arabesco) as the term i had at hand, as intendedly meaning a decoration detail rather than pure arabic caligraphy. I wouldn't use the term jibberish (propper gibberish) as i gather that this is perhaps more indicative of 'speaking' rapidly and inarticulately, and not 'writing' in such mode. But when i quoted your mentioning the jibberish term, my intention was to attest that we were both meaning the same thing.
But speaking of fine tunings, allow me to remind (in double) the intrinsic distinction between recazzo and forte, such as not underlined in Peter's drawing link.
While the forte defines a determined area (section) of the blade, as in principle its strongest part, the recazo, while circumstantially associated with a inherent location, is a term that refers an added value created in a blade, being a blunt (non edged) zone in which you can grip the blade with your fingers, to better (wrist) handle the sword, acquiring a wider angle for sword combat. So we have that, while blades could/should 'always' include a forte, the recazo is not necessarily a 'ever present' part of the blade, this having being a later 'invention', i guess during the XVI century; according to some, a resource more practicable in Western terms, being more of an esthetical detail in the Orient, when it exists.
Perhaps you knew all this; sorry for the bore.
Take care :cool: .


.

The date on this weapons scabbard says 1110 AH which is about 1689AD

AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH is on one line of text...the one nearest the hilt.

The other line I'm not sure about.

:shrug:

Not at all Fernando, this is a most interesting look into these etymologies, and while it has been 'lifetimes' since I fenced, I admit little of this terminology was ever present in my mind :) Still,as we examine blades looking for historical clues, it is important to use correct terms in notations, so my 'faux pas' was unfortunate despite deeper analysis not needed as the correction put things on track.

In retrospect I would retract the word jibberish that I used as well, and used illegible or indecipherable, to explain the notions of some Arabic inscriptions being so. It is a most complex topic, and it seems such intricacies completely get things off center.

Midelburgo, thank you for the note on the stortas, and I have always very much agreed with the late Tony North, that these were certainly instrumental in some degree in the development of these Meditteranean swords. The fact that so many Italian influences are apparent in many ethnographic weapon forms compelled me to get a copy of the huge (and expnsive) Boccia & Coelho "Armi Bianche Italiene", where the evidences can be seen.

Ibrahiim, thank you for that translation!! Very sound evidence that is really helpful as we continue the investigation here. It is really good to get a well based look into these swords which will advance our core knowledge at last. There has been too much incomplete over the years.


.[/QUOTE]

In defence of the " gibberish": some Central European swords have inscriptions in " pseudo-arabic" style. Obviously, they are " legible" but certainly "undecipherable".

perplexity
 

Sorry my ignorance Dr. but, if they are legible (lego), they are readable, hence interpretable.
But if they are 'pseudo, it is when they are undecipherable, hence uninterpretable... right ? :o.

By legible I meant one can trace their configurations. But they are “pseudo”, I.e. without meaning.

Thanks Ariel, 'psuedo' is much better term than 'jibberish', my bad :)
What I was thinking of is the fascination with 'oriental' exotica (which included Eastern, i.e Arabic, Middle Eastern) decoration on weaponry from 17th through 18th in Europe. Naturally the European artisans had little command of the complexities of Islamic calligraphy, so artistically applied simulations of some of the lettering etc. with these kinds of designs on weaponry.

Charles, I cannot help but say: 'what a sword!!!!!!!" Congratulations!
To elaborate on Ariel's 'gut feeling', here is Bukharan enamel box that displays some similarities in pattern and technique. I think Ariel (and Elgood) comments can be given serious consideration here.

Enamel work was used all over Muslim countries, especially with the Ottomans this is not a Bukharan specificity.

This Central Asian link is a nonsense. As another forum member mentions rightly, this is clearly an Algerian sword (at least it's obvious to me).

Of course this is (north-west) African nimcha, and enamel was certainly used elsewhere (and not only in Muslim countries)... I am surprised you thought this was even an argument :shrug:
The point was in the kind of enamel! There are some known enameled nimchas ( there are a few examples HERE ) The enamel is distinctively different in many ways. Considering A&A and Ariel's+Elgood comments, and known Central Asian enamel samples, I suggested the possibility of Charles' nimcha (fittings) being produced by Central Asian master living elsewhere.

OK OK sorry Alex

Here is the one from the MET :)

Kubur, this is a nice example. It looks like enamel/champleve work, is it possible to see it closer? Also, is there an attribution or more details on this nimcha?
Looking at details of technique, design and material, it appears to me that enamel on most Moroccan/Algerian fittings is more granular and geometrical, whereas on Charles' example it is made in different style and technique, which makes it quite unusual, and special! As Bukharan enamelers were known to be working in Oman, perhaps similar workshops existed elsewhere, a suggestion we cannot verify now. I look forward to more comparisons and analysis of similar examples.

Actually if I recall looking into Elgood (1994) there was no mention of Bukharen work in Oman, but he did mention such Central Asian (Bukharan) work in Yemen, as was also pointed out by Ibrahiim. It seems Yemen had far more variations of influential sword mounting and furbishing which include the impressive examples of Hadhramaut, I believe considered part of Yemen. Also in San'aa which I believe as well part of Yemen in kind there were impressive swords mounted.

Again trying to keep to the suggestion of Maghrebi, most likely Algerian provenance for this blade, and likely these mounts, as Algerian, other examples of deeply stamped marks have been found in earlier discussions on a pistol.
As earlier noted these deep stamps may be those of an outfitter rather than a formally recognized arsenal. These places mounted received trade blades for distribution, and similar deeply stamped marks seem to occur in similar blade location near the ricasso in many cases (except obviously the pistol which is on the top of the barrel over the lock, not sure of proper term).

There was I believe a Yemeni classified sword of silverwork mounts with a straight backsword blade again with similar stamp (and location) but with central blade markings of Italian form (three hourglass type stamps).

As well noted by A&A, enameling was practiced throughout Ottoman Empire and the presence and skills of artisans from Central Asian regions and perhaps others would have certainly altered regional characteristics.

Without specific and reliable provenance we would have to turn to the styles, motif and theme of features in hopes of better classification.
Overall, most elements direct to probable Algerian mounting of this remarkable sabre.

Charles just wanted to thank you again for posting this, and giving us all what has become a great exercise in investigating this sword and others of its form.

Jim,
I believe that more comparative analysis and samples of similarly detailed arms, or other objects made in similar technique, would benefit the research. Beyond mounting, the artistic characteristics and details can point to certain regions, masters and even workshops. I do not recall seeing similar enameled fittings on Maghreb weapons. Are there any? Again, I mean not just enamel, but this particular style of enameling. It is not characteristic of Maghreb in my opinion. Sadly, these details are not considered enough when it comes to arms, and 'artistic' part of research is often lacking, especially when it comes to such non-standard 'impressive' sword, whereas with other non-arms objects, it is a common practice. Perhaps I am over-analyzing. What do you think?

Not over analyzing at all Alex, in fact you more eloquently expressed exactly what I was trying to say. I am admittedly not especially adept at analysis of artistic techniques, but have always noted your observations as astute.
\
I think one of the most confounding circumstances is when artisans from other cultures or regions are working in areas outside their own which transposes their indigenous character into other context.

This was the situation which Elgood described concerning Bukharen enamel work in Mecca, but then suggested perhaps the item was removed to Bukhara and decorated there. Considering the diffusion of Bukharen goods and influences, possibly Yemen would be included, we know there were distinct religious connections there from Bukhara as previously discussed.

I completely agree, the artistic values and character in the evaluation of arms decoration is essential in classification of at least the mounts, the blades of course often being another story.
Well noted as always. :)

PS in my previous post I stated Elgood noted Yemen/Bukharen work but meant Mecca as he actually noted.

Italian origins of nimcha hilt style and other key factors
 

To reiterate what Midelburgo posted (#42) regarding the 'old hypothesis' on Italian origins of these nimcha hilts in the Mediterranean, carried forward in Tony North's 1975 article "A Late 15th Century Italian Sword", I wanted to repost the plate of hilt variants he included.
Attached below are 150-158 from "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, 1975) and all are 'storta' from Venice c. 1480-1490.

In the plate with markings, #150, the first one left top, has these three curious 'twig' markings, which are seen in the next image of the cylindrical Yemeni hilt with straight blade with apparently (heavier) marks on the blade as well as a cartouche near the ricasso. See next image for the caption #150 and followed by the article cover with Yemeni sword.

In the next images from Boccia & Coelho are storta which by the 17th century have gone from somewhat straight blades to the flared falchion type blades. These are not of course identical, but aside from elaborate fullering and added features, the sweeping profile into heavier point for optimum momentum in close quarters is evident.

In the last plate is a blade with four fullers, from Milan c. 1610, which shows makers mark and name in the key location on blade we have been discussing toward those seen on what we believe to be Algerian placed stamps.

I hope these plates might add to the detail here in our discussion which will show that evidence for Italian origins for these Mediterranean sabres from 15th century hilts is compelling. The strong influence of Venice and Genoa in North Africa and other ports of call throughout the Mediterranean and Indian Ocean, Southern Arabia seems profound.

* THE STORTA PLATE I INTENDED FIRST APPARENTLY DID NOT OPEN BUT LINKED BELOW , SORRY.

Here is a Nimcha not usually attributed to Somalia but it gives notice that these swords were all over the Zanzibar regional Hub and because that part of Somalia was a key regional trade player it is not surprising that such a weapon should appear. Naturally with pictures it is advisable to be cautious since what defines a nationally used sword or is it a photographers prop?

The hilt is clearly saying Nimcha ...and looks similar to Yemeni and Saudia variants although it rings a certain bell in the pommel top since the clear link to Bilao weapons of Somalia is there...in the three prong format...and it suggests an influence upon other Nimcha particularly Saudia style … perhaps giving the direction of influence...
At least we have here a potential spread through trade of this Greater Indian Ocean style or as Buttin probably coined them Arabian.
The picture describes the Somalian gentleman as being of VIP status..

The Majeerteen Sultanate From where the above picture was taken...located in the horn of Africa...below..The town marked in red is Alula on the coast.

I HAD NO IDEA THAT THERE WAS A COUNTRY CALLED THIS ..:shrug:

Trading vessels had to virtually skirt around it as it was The Horn of Africa ..From Wikepedia I quote;

The Majeerteen Sultanate (Somali: Suldanadda Majeerteen, Arabic: سلطنة مجرتين‎), also known as Majeerteenia and Migiurtinia, was a Somali kingdom centered in the Horn of Africa. Ruled by Boqor Osman Mahamuud during its golden age, the sultanate controlled much of northern and central Somalia in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The polity had all of the organs of an integrated modern state and maintained a robust trading network. It also entered into treaties with foreign powers and exerted strong centralized authority on the domestic front. Much of the Sultanate's former domain is today coextensive with the autonomous Puntland region in northeastern Somalia.

Regarding the weapons here is the Saudia silvered hilt Nimcha and the Billao Somali hilt which was a swordhilt or also on a dagger... plus the Yemeni looking version with prongs and probably a result of trade to or from this very important region...particularly in the 19th C and early 20thC. as per the heavy print above.

Excellent examples of the South Arabian (Yemen/Hadhramaut) styling and of course the variation of the hilt, yet with the distinguishing 'hand nock' on the inside of the grip which seems to ideally denote 'nimcha'.

While obviously we are deviating from Charles' sword in the original post in degree, it is interesting to examine the spectrum of styling in these Mediterranean swords which are typically associated with Algeria.

The development of the form from 15th century Italian hilt styles, and blades evolving as well from Italian stortas and European falchions also provides dimension in understanding the dynamics and context in which Charles outstanding example originated and clearly held importance.

I think this Somali connected topic as well as others which have come up in examining Charles' nimcha are well worthy of their own threads to be discussed further. I never had heard of this Somalian kingdom either! but its fascinating to see the world this nimcha lived in !!! :)

Algerian, Yemen sabre?
 

Hi,

What do you think about the attached saber?
Seems that it may come from Algeria, or Yemen... for me it looks like more from Yemen (hilt type) based on other posts:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15790
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21833

Blade is polished and was engraved (not much has survived).
Blade quality seems to be good. Maybe older than hilt and scabbard..

Would appreciate more information about the origin/age

Thank you for sharing qusko. Yes, I agree with you that this is an older European blade that was originally mounted on an Algerian nimcha that was later remounted in Yemen.

This blade does seem like those seen in 'Mediterranean' swords which seem like the flared tip curved types (as mentioned in Elgood, as well as "Arts of the Muslim Knight", which I do not have on hand).

I am not sure this blade would be European with the spines in the blade back (at least in those I am familiar with), and while European hatchet point blades (incl British M1796) have radiused points, the flare and curve are not this dramatic. Whatever the case, this example has a resemblance to the example attached.
Question: the turquoise and coral decoration does seem popular in Algeria, did Yemeni armorers use this affectation as well? The mounts do seem Yemeni.

Mounts are definitely Yemeni work. Those blades, including on nimchas, seem to have been present in Yemen in large numbers and can come on a variety of swords including 'karabelas' and other types.

Jim,
Not sure about coral and turquoise, but there is also decoration in red stones (carnelian). I've found Gusbi Jambiya from Yemen with similar decoration.

https://oriental-arms.com/product/tr...om-hadhramaut/

Seems blade can be from XVII.
Do you have any suggestions about hilt/scabbard age? - XIX, earlier?

Thank you for the response Qusko! I had forgotten about those,and this really is an attractive saber, I like this type decoration.

I've seen similar work that looks like its made yesterday. I think its 20th century, and leaning more towards the other half.

Jim, you are bringing up some interesting questions. I have three blades that could be classified as nimchas, and while they have different hilts from Morocco, Algeria and Yemen there are some similarities in the blades. I took some quick pictures. All three blades have a spine with a groove. The two larger blades also have European marks or copies thereof. I suspect that they are therefore at the very least copies of European blades.

Teodor, you have in kind brought up interesting perspective with these fascinating examples. When I noted 'European' blades, I had not thought of Styrian or for that matter Italian blades, which the one in the center resembles (the center one looks like a storta type).
The top one with remarkably flared blade, Yemeni hilt, brings to mind the fanciful European term 'scimitar', and if it has a European mark it seems likely copied.

The Yemeni hilted nimcha has no markings. This type of blade, with a large yelman seems to have been quite popular with Barbary pirates. The Grand Master's Palace Armory in Malta has a collection of swords taken from Barbary pirates and many of them have similar blades. I suspect at least a portion of them were made in Europe.

An interesting subject. There were sword blade of similar size and style also seen in Ethiopia, they were however dressed in their traditional hilts and sheaths. I think I may still have one here of British manufacture.