Thank you so much Richard!!! and its fantastic to have you here on this, as you note, very complicated topic. You have been steadily with us over these years of study, and your contributions to our learning have been outstanding. Really looking forward to your joining us on this!!!

All best wishes
Jim

Ibrahim,
Yes you are right, this rally is a very complex subject, with few conclusions, but a lot of guessing, as that is mostly what we can do.
Maybe we should try to take an interest in what Markel writes, and also start to study Indian jewellery, as part of the answer may lay there.

Jim,
I know you use hours with your books when you take an interest in a subject, and the members benefit from your studies very much. I think you have a very good point in turning to other sources, as the development of the decoration may be in a place, where weapon collectors seldom look for an answer.

Richard,
Yes it is years ago since we discussed the subject, and I have done little to research it since then, as I have had other researches going on.

I have come to the conclusion, that I am not going to survive my research list, so to speed the research up a bit I will ask the members to start their own research, and tell us about it.
When showing a picture of a decoration, please tell what you have learned from looking at it, or what you have read about it, how old it is, and where it was used - north or south.

Salaams Jim, Brilliant post and clearly there are hours of research behind this detailed response...I had to look up Leitmotif! :) which it states is a recurrent theme throughout a musical or literary composition, associated with a particular person, idea, or situation. Thus I see clearly its use on this decorative form as being present in the orchestra of decoration on everything Indian. I was looking through two decades old Sothebys catalogs and discovered the floral spread on Indian Carpets and even on the fittings on Hookah pipes. Indian Architecture is of course awash with such splendid decoration. It stands to reason that Indian Arms and Armour is laced with the complex floral designs.
I hope someone can provide the details I requested earlier but I will make the request again here..

Does anyone have a copy of Stephan Markels , "Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" It would be useful to have this document transferred here for library purposes. I cannot get it to download...:mad:

I believe this will create the foundation framework so that we can get closer to the answer. Clearly Jim has provided huge clues from this document so that having the whole thesis to hand may well be a bonus to Library. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.

Ibrahim,
Here you can find it https://lacma.academia.edu/StephenMarkel

Thank you but that is the web page I have been drumming on for weeks trying to break into it so I can place its details on Library...even though it is 11 pages. ..I cannot download it ..though I have it cornered and try all the time to access I just cannot crack it... Anyone who can get into it please simply copy to Library...on this thread.

Ibrahiim,
Have you read the rules for downloading files from their homepage?

Jens, can you link this article?
I know Ibrahiim has had some computer issues, and my scanner is on the blink.
Thanks a lot,
Jim

Jim,
Yes I could, but I wont. I have given the link, so that each member can have a look at the article, and that must be enough.
Did you read the rules about copyrights?
Copyright is a world wide thing - but in a way it is also a gentleman agreement, and that is why I will no download it.

So that we may proceed and since I made the mistake of asking for a copy of the entire document I will rephrase that asking if I can somehow have a precis of the work sent PM to me from which I will extract the relevant pieces and add to Library..I emphasis that the details are for research purposes and education and I have read the relevant rules appertaining to such work.. :shrug:

Sorry guys, I clearly had forgotten the copyright thing, and had been so complacent in the fair use practices that I overlooked that an entire article could not be downloaded per se'. Thank you for being diligent in observing these details which I should be well aware of. Well done.

We will have to simply extract pertinent details in accord with requirements and limit quotes to fair use standards .

Here is an interesting painting depicting Dara Shikoh with Mystics;from The Agha Khan Museum.

Please see https://www.agakhanmuseum.org/collec...prince-mystics

It is worth considering that this relationship would eventually cause his death sentence carried out by Aurangzeb. It is fascinating that Dara had fused the two religions of Islam and Hinduism into one form. Hindu decorative style would be influenced by floral art for centuries and become apparent in architecture, weaponry and virtually all forms of artistic work in the entire universal Hindu pallet of arts...In fact this was not always the case..Jahangir’s passion for natural history was not inherited by his son Shah Jahan and grandson Dara Shikoh. It was during the 1630s that flowers and floral arrangements with their decorative possibilities came to dominate Mughal textiles and the adornment of architecture and album pages. See http://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/mughal-india/

Is there a secretive subtext in the apparent use of Floral motifs in Mughal weaponry? What would have been the outcome had he survived and inherited the Mughal Dynasty?

The sword hilts were decorated in different ways. Some had a flat decoration, while others had a chiselled decoration. Others had a combination of both, as can be seen in the picture below.

http://atkinson-swords.com/sword-mak...on/decoration/ goes some way to discuss the different decorative techniques. The author also references Forum library with Inlay, koftgari, repousse, chasing and neillo which I assume is the thread at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=neillo

As usual a picture being worth 1000 words here is a fine example described as ~

Talwar; gilt metal hilt engraved with foliate decoration; knucklebow with chevron pattern; pommel with scalloped edge, fitted with swivel with red and gold woven wrist strap; steel back-edged blade with deep fuller on face, with gilt inscriptions.

Provenance
One of Tipu Sultan's favourite blades; belonged to his father Hyder Ali Khan.

Maybe the thread should be made a bit broader, so the title should be.
The flowers on the tulwar hilts, and the flowers/suns on top of the disc.
My reason for expanding the title is, that I believe the decoration on top of the disc, or failing decoration, is of importance.
Unfortunately we know very little about these disc decorations, but hopefully we can get the different details together, so we can get a better overall picture. The flowers are very different, and the suns have a very different number of rays, but I find it unlikely that this has to do with an artistic 'fingerprint'.

In mainline Hindu belief each deity has an appropriate or favourite flower that is used during puja, here are some examples:-

Lord Ganesh:- His favourite flower is hibiscus, but really you can use any red flower; you can also use other flowers such as roses, or jasmine or marigolds, as well as various leaves. In Ganesh Puja more than 20 types of flowers and leaves are used.

Lord Shiva:- His appropriate colour is white, the most important flower/fruit/leaf in Shiva Puja is the bael (aegle marmelos, bilvapatra, bel). Other flowers can be offered.

Durga:- Her appropriate colour is red, hibiscus is a suitable flower, you can also offer bael fruit/flower/leaf, or lotus, or jasmine (mogra)

Parvati:- All flowers suitable for Lord Shiva are suitable for Parvati

Lord Vishnu:- His favourite flower is lotus. He is also very fond of tulsi (holy basil) leaves.

Lord Brahma:- His most appropriate flowers are lotus and crepe gardenia (firki tagar)

Surya Devata (God of the Sun):- lotus

with thanks to Lord Ganesh

These are just a few examples, the list is endless, and opinions can differ as to what is appropriate, or favourite. Even in what I have given above, I've only given favourites or "most appropriate" in most cases other flowers/leaves/fruits can also be used, and to know them all and their correct order is really the skill of a Brahmin.

The use of these flowers/leaves/fruits as ornamental or decorative motifs would depend upon how and where used, and by whom.

My area of knowledge is the keris, not Indian weaponry, what I've given above is just a touch of an area of subsidiary knowledge that is required to understand some things connected with keris culture, however, my guess would be that the use of these floral motifs in Indian decorative art probably depends very much upon the wishes of the first owner of the object, and perhaps only he knew the true meaning of the use of the motif, according to his understanding.

Where use of these motifs in an Islamic context is concerned, obviously the interpretation will differ.

Alan, thank you so much for this remarkable and itemized information pertaining to the symbolism associated with various Hindu deities. This is exactly the kind of detail needed to better understand the floral aspects of these hilts, and their imbued symbolism.
It is a well placed reminder as you have noted, that often key data and clues in the study of one field of weapons may be found within studies of other arms, not necessarily directly connected.

As you have well observed, it is most unlikely we can know without a doubt the exact purpose or meaning intended by the original artisan who created the decoration, or that of its intended client or clientele. These imbuements are of other times and circumstances, and their actual intended meanings do not necessarily transcend into later situations or generations. Often times these motifs may simply be repeated aesthetically or traditionally without such aspects being known.

Still, having such insight into the symbolism generally held in Hindu dogma and tradition can give us a reasonably plausible view to evaluate such possibilities.

Also, as noted, there was a good degree of use of Hindu motif melded into the decoration of Islamic arms which was likely far more aesthetically applied in many cases. However, it is known that a number of favored floral patterns became dynastic leitmotif in other cases.

Thanks for your comment Jim.

I have believed for a long time that it is simply not possible to learn much about keris, by the attempted study of keris. Pretty much all one can gain by studying the keris itself is superficial and often erroneous understandings of the simple physical characteristics.

The Indianised States of South East Asia , most especially Jawa and Bali, owe much to their Indian heritage. That heritage has been combined with indigenous cultural values, and overlaid with the values and beliefs of other cultures, very much so in Java, to a lesser degree in Bali, but the foundations of Hindu-Buddhist symbolism are still there.

To have any hope at all of understanding this symbolism, and the associated values, it is essential to study the society and culture, rather than a single blossom of that culture:- the keris.

I am inclined to believe that using this socio-cultural approach to the study of perhaps any form of weaponry that was/is used by any group of people will yield better results than trying to understand a weapon by studying the weapon itself.

To put it another way:- if we regard weapons as blossoms of a culture, roses, so to speak, we do the same as a dedicated rose gardener does:- we study the soil in which the rose grows, in order to understand the rose. We do not begin with a petal and then work back to the soil. Study of a petal tells us almost nothing, study of the soil tells us almost everything.

Alan, thank you for your posts. They are very interesting, especially the part about the flowers connected to the deieties. I have always thought that the number of flowers were more limited.
Your last post explains it all quite well, and the way you end the post explains very well how a research should be started:-).

[QUOTE=Ibrahiim al Balooshi] With all due respect, this is a tremendously simplified and rather incorrect point of view.
Aniconism as such was officially introduced by Caliph al-Malik in ~697 CE ( that was when islamo-byzantine coins stopped carrying portraits of the Caliph ( or presumably Muhammed himself) and became image-less tokens.
However, in a little bit of time Persians, Mamluks, Moghuls and Ottomans produced enormous numbers of detailed miniatures with human images and even portraits, including Muhammed himself, and some of those images were pretty risque, not to say pornographic.

Perhaps the only society where uniconism still persisted was Aravia proper, but even there crude engraving were created.

Hadiths proscribe music as well, but it was never suppressed and flourished unabated everywhere. Even alcohol was used in some islamic societies and strains.

It seems whenever approaching a topic where highly complex aspects are involved, particularly religion and the Islamic Faith, it becomes necessary to highly quantify virtually every view or comment expressed. I think this is a good example, and as certainly the case, we do need to recognize these religious complexities in degree to better understand the symbolic and decorative aspects used in these hilts.

While the observation that there were certain proscriptions toward the portrayal or imagery of sentient beings in many cases in the numerous schools of thought and other divisions in the Islamic Faith is correct, the variations are indeed innumerable.

With the Mughals, as a whole these dynasties belonged to both Sunni and Shi'a followings, and the Sufi followings were present a varying degree.
While Ottomans were largely Sunni, the Janissaries were Bektashi Shi'a and again other variations were likely followed as with various nations in that empire and their Faiths.
The Persians of course were Shi'a and followed different approach to decorative allowances. The Mamluks were again of various followings.

It seems that with all of these empires, dynasties and nations there were considerable instances of degrees of synchretism between these Faiths and followings, and to adamantly classify certain restrictions presumed broadly applied probably best avoided.
I fully concede I am not a theologian, but this assessment is based on what understanding I have toward these historic periods and the Faith observed in them.

I think we must take into consideration , that the Hindu decoration of artifacts and weapons was used centuries before the Mughals arrived at the scene.
Before the Muslims arrived in India, they were influenced from different countries, but the Hindu's also had their own style.
Alan is right, scratching the stone doesn't help to understand, one must dig deeper.

Alan, in the article The use of Floral and Fauna Imagery on Mughal Decorative Arts, Stephan Markel writes about a water ewer from Lahore around 1700.
"While the shape follows earlier established conventions, it has been dramatically 'Mughalized' with numerous descriptions of poppy blossoms, which since the time of the pleasure-loving Jahangir (r. 1605-1627) served in effect as the state flower of the Mughals."

Is the poppy also often seen on the keris'?

Salaams Jens Nordlunde, I agree entirely with your perspective however, I believe that the concept of Islamic versus Hindu art is not up for scrutiny except that it is the balance of both when viewed through the lens of Dara Shikoh and conversely by Aurangzeb who had him executed for trying to fuse the two structures as one. It is therefor nothing to do with religion per se...although you could argue that heresy being the charge Dara had no chance of survival in the situation he found himself surrounded by...May I also point to the time zone that Floral art form more fully became accepted into Hindu art which was apparently not always the case~ As I stated at #51 here Viz;

It is fascinating that Dara (had tried to) fused the two religions of Islam and Hinduism into one form. Hindu decorative style would be influenced by floral art for centuries and become apparent in architecture, weaponry and virtually all forms of artistic work in the entire universal Hindu pallet of arts...In fact this was not always the case..Jahangir’s passion for natural history was not inherited by his son Shah Jahan and grandson Dara Shikoh. It was during the 1630s that flowers and floral arrangements with their decorative possibilities came to dominate Mughal textiles and the adornment of architecture and album pages. See http://blogs.bl.uk/asian-and-african/mughal-india/

It can be seen in the reference how Moghul art developed through phases until direct attention became focussed upon Floral artworks at the very time Dara Shikoh (and by his artists) were being influenced by Mystics perhaps pointing to their secretive and hidden meanings in weaponry decor; particularly hilts. It could be stated that he was one of the main patrons of this floral art form

What seems odd is that the zenith of floral paintings seems to be at the time Dara Shiko was inspired to have artists view flowers especially vases filled with blosoms...and more weirdly influenced by European (EIC) styles which were copied in an attempt to show more realism in Moghul art.

It is worth contemplating what would have been the outcome had Dara Shikoh somehow won against Aurangzeb ...He would have inherited the Mughal crown and in the style of Machiavellian events akin to the Tudors, Aurangzeb would probably have been executed and two great styles may even have been joined.

By now, we would all know the methods and secrets of Tulvar hilt decoration.

See also http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/...spiration.html

The prime reasoning behind accepting into Moghul Art the European exactness of botanical studies in floral form was that it enabled greater accuracy in colours and in lifelike portrayals of subject matter.

Floral artwork of that period around 1620 to 1630 added below.

Jens, I do not know of the poppy in Javanese decorative art.

In Malay, which means in Indonesian also, there is a word for the poppy:- "apiun". But there is no word in Javanese for the ornamental poppy.

In Malay, Indonesian and in Javanese there is a word for the opium poppy:- "madat".

In fact, I doubt that the poppy could grow in Java or Bali.

It seems that from the time of Akbar (1542-1605) there had been a notable tolerance of religions, and Akbar had been key in developing a rather syncretic approach to recognizing tenets of Hindu, Zorastrianism and Christianity. These attitudes and conventions seem to continue through his son Jahangir and grandson Shahjahan. During these times "...Shah Jahan not only continued his fathers love of floral imagery in his decorative arts, but also codified formal portraits of flowering plants as a dynastic leitmotif that was to continue for the next two centuries", (Markel, 1999, p26).

It states further that during this period, "...the naturalistic portrayals of noble animals favored in Akbari and Jahangiri paintings were adopted for use in the decorative arts.
As was generally the case with imperial painting, the decorative arts under Aurengzeb (1658-1707) and later Mughal emperors emulated those established during the reign of Shah Jahan". (Markel, p.26).

It is indicated that probably the same craftsmen were employed as the work carried strong resemblances to predecessors but it seems that as Aurengzebs reign progressed the styles began to degenerate and become more stylized. By the mid 19th century, the elegant floral depictions of the 17th c had become more stylized and repetitive.

It would seem that the more austere and orthodox character of Aurengzebs reign had, while allowing initially the continuance of these styles from earlier reigns, the lack of inspiration artistically and simple imitation had seriously degraded the floral theme.
It appears that under Aurengzeb, the characteristic calligraphic and geometric themes were advanced in the decorative arts, though as noted, repetitive floral themes continued in degree.

In the case of the poppy, this was of course a key floral theme during Jahangirs time, and carried on through Dara Shikoh, clearly for its pleasure giving properties. I am wondering if perhaps this particular flower may have been stricken from the themes during Aurengzeb given his highly orthodox character.

Also, perhaps the poppy in its more degenerative renderings may have occurred in influence in other art of regions such as Java, but simply as an interpretation of such themes. As a directly applied floral theme, as Alan indicates, probably not likely.

When it comes to the decoration on the top of the disc things gets somewhat more complicated.
To take the sun decoration, of which I have several, but the suns are different and the number of rays also. Some have an even number of rays while others have an uneven number. I dont know why it is so, but think it could have something to do with the different clans.
One from Salumbar/Udaipur/Mewar (dated 1870-71) has 40 rays (cat. p. 206), while one from Ulwar (late 18th century)has only 27 rays (cat. p. 241).

Sorry, I should have shown the suns - here they are.
The one with the short rays is from Salumbar, and the one with the long rays is from Ulwar

Hi Jens,
Thank you for showing these fantastic images of the pommel disc interiors!
It seems that over the years the decorative motif on tulwar hilts has virtually always concentrated on the hilt overall, but without really looking into the designs inside the pommel disc. Your attention to this detail has been well established in that you have always included that key view in the examples in your collection, now gratefully published.

While we have been discussing the floral motif of the hilts, it seems that the inside of the pommel discs are typically a radiating theme in their circular shape. These examples show of course a solar theme, and given that they are of Rajasthan provenance, naturally this suggests Rajput examples.

The Rajput clans are incredibly complex, however rudimentarily they are of three basic lineages.
1. Suryavanshi: The solar, from Surya, Hindu god of the sun.
2.Chandravanshi: The lunar, from Chandra, god of the moon
3.Agnivanshi: The fire, from Agni, god of fire.

Salumbar is in the Udaipur District of Rajasthan, and primarily of the
Chundawat clan.

Ulwar was a princely state with primarily Naruka Rajputs.

While not being entirely clear on which of the three lineages these clans may be ascribed to, by the concept of the solar type motif in the discs, that of the first lineage would be implied.

So the questions would be;
Would the solar theme of suns rays be indicative of these Rajput clans?

How would the radiating rays of the solar theme be differentiated from the radiating design of flames (fire lineage)?

Are there lunar themed discs? Would these have crescents or varying moon phases?

Leaving the Rajput orientation, how would pommel discs of other regions, other groups, be decorated, and what symbolism might we find in those cases?

In the case of solar representation for example, as here, there are more numerous smaller shorter 'rays' and others longer and less in number.
Would this signify different clans of the same lineage, or might this simply be aesthetic representation of same symbolism in accord with regional or clan preference?

A lot of questions, but as the pommel discs seem to not necessarily follow the same theme as the floral motif (or perhaps some do) it would seem that we need to look into the wider scope of these pommel disc decorations.

Hi Jim,
You ask a lot of interesting questions, whish I cant answer, but most of the answers would be - maybe, could be, possible, I don know - I will however try to answer some of the questions.
Here you can see the Sun born, Moon born and the Fire born clans.

http://www.jairajputana.com/list-of-...and-vansh.html

There is something of which you should be aware, and that is that some of the clans mentioned are sub clans of other clans mantioned. Like the Chundawat clan is a sub clan of the Sisodia clan of Mewar - see catalogue pp. 204-205.

You ask what the top of the disc from a fire born clan would look like, I am not sure, but I have seen a sun where the rays looked like flames, so I suppose that is what they could/would look like.

To research this subject would be a lot of work, and quite complicated as a close knowledge of the clans involved, and of their history, would be needed. To this comes the sub clans, sub sub clans and so on.

What about the disc tops with a flower with a different number of petals, or the disc tops with nothing at all?

Exactly Jens, and the reason I posed this barrage of questions is to set out the kinds of questions that we ,meaning not only us, but any serious student of arms and collector of Indian weaponry, should be asking.

In my post, and aware of the complexity of the Rajput clan system, I noted the three primary lineages, avoiding trying to catalog the many sub clans at this point. Here in trying to explain the nature of the Rajput clans, the goal was to illustrate that these symbols of the primary lineages may account for at least some of the themes in the pommel discs.

Here is where the complications begin, and only the steadfast researcher will achieve gainful advances as they probe further into these matters. It is far from an easy task, as you and I know, as we are aware of how tenacious such study must be, and the frustration and disappointments which thwart it seems too many hopeful leads.
We can only hope that a new breed of researchers are among the new collectors and students of Indian history, and armed with the ever advancing technology, can carry the efforts of the 'old guard', to the new vistas we have ever hoped to achieve.

Even resolving a few of the Rajput symbolism conundrums will hopefully give us better perspective on perhaps resolving the questions toward those motifs in other contexts outside the Rajput spectrum. For example, as you note, the floral character in some where the number of petals shown (like the number of rays in solar or flames in fire) carry some esoteric meaning.

When is a solar ray actually a flame? aren't the 'rays' of sun actually flames from the cosmic ball of fire we know as the sun?
Examining these seemingly aesthetic decorations and motifs in these perspectives becomes a philosophical and many manners of extremely subjective thought, far too complex for most students or collectors.

However to really appreciate a weapon, to understand its true history, we need to try to understand those who had them, who decorated them, and what these things meant to them. The swords and weapons were in many ways the icons of the very being of those who owned them.

That is what the study of arms is all about, and that of the Indian arms is not only some of the most colorful and fascinating, but profoundly challenging that any serious student of arms may encounter.
You have studied and worked tenaciously at this for many decades of your life, and given us all the sound footing and key benchmarks needed to continue the quest . .......for us, and others who will join.....onward!!!

Hi Jim,
I think, maybe I even believe, that the decoration at the top of the disc ought to give more meaning than the decoration at the hilt itself, as this decoration is more likely to follow the fashion than the decoration at the top.
All over the world the early people has their tribe markings on their weapons, like the American Indians, so why would the Indians of India not follow the same thread?
When it comes to research these things, it would be a very good thing not to forget the architecture and the jewellery, as a lot of things starts here, and is then transfirmed to the weapons
One like Markel constantly returns to the poppy used for decoration, so the four pateled flower used on the disc, could it be a poppy?

Very good points Jens.
In books and research I have found that even prehistoric man marked and embellished his weapons, as these were not only sacred and valuable, but vital to his very life. These marks were of course most often imbuements of power and strength, much as with the animist totems the people, later tribes, would adopt.

Man was tribal long before civilization, but as this developed, along with religions and other civil organizations formed, these totemic symbols and values became inherent in more permanent things such as architecture.

We know that most Indian weapons have been structured in varied degree after architectural elements, with those of temples and religious structures such as virigals and stupas being the literal foundation for such designs .
As Robert Elgood well showed in "Hindu Arms and Ritual", the weapons were often considered to be in essence de facto temples which would actually be visited or even inhabited by the gods and goddesses in the pantheons.

Jewellery was in effect much the same, with key religious symbolism which would provide individuals with talismanic and amuletic protection as well as invocational features to the Faith of the wearer.

These facts emphasize that the decorative features and motif displayed in the iconography and designs in both religious architecture and jewellery may hold valuable clues toward understanding the decoration in these arms.

Yes Jim, there are different way to go if you really want to study the Indian arms, textiles is one of them, which should be added to the others.

Well there you have it !!:) yet another avenue for researching these weapons. Too many collectors think that in order to study Indian arms (or any ethnographic forms for that matter) the answers will be in neatly categorized chapters with each type pictured and classified and that the decoration is from such and such place etc.
It is in a broad study of material culture, art and crafts, religion, traditions, coins, textiles etc. that the real answers are found.

I do realise that not many collectors are prepated to start to research in this way - although this is the way to do it, and when we are at it, lets add religion.
This makes me say, that the ones who asks from where is this, or how old is it, should try to think of, how many hours it has taken for the one who answers, to get to the right answer.
I do know that collectors have different levels of interest, in how far they will go researching their weapons - but try to appresiate the answers from the ones who did the reaesrch.

It is indeed vital to remove the blinkers on this revolving and evolving subject. I also think that the answers may not necessarily suddenly appear rather that someone down the line may take up the challenge based on the research we have here, thus, answers or theories may arise thereafter.

For sure there are shadowy linkages across the spectrum on Religion, history, architecture, metalworking techniques, floral and geometric design, textiles, ceramics, artwork, coins, jewellery, calligraphy, arms and armour, tribal Hindu and Moghul style...secret and talismanic mystical involvement, traditions and probably 10 other associated ideas...at least!

Whilst the subject has a deep melting pot the spin-off is in Indian arms and armour generally; so that having entered the debate researchers will expand their knowledge considerably by getting involved moreover access to this knowledge base is a gateway into other regions weaponry so closely linked both ways when considering Ethnographic Arms and Armour..

Amen Jens!!!
I think this is one of the reasons that the study of ethnographic weaponry SHOULD be included in the academic study of that as well as anthropology, archaeology and many of the humanities. They are iconic in reflecting so much history of the cultures and all manner of groups which they are from.

I know that in the many years I have studied the weapons, I have learned so much on so many aspects of these cultures that technically are not at all directly related to the arms themselves. It is a dynamically broad picture that actually has few bounds and perpetually grows as more is learned.
Ibrahiim, you too have followed this path, and its great to learn together as we all seek more answers in these many diverse areas.

Please see http://www.christies.com/features/Bl...rd-5843-1.aspx where the continued demolition of AURANGZEB remaining family members is explained. :shrug:


See also https://books.google.com.om/books?id...tribes&f=false Which describes Indian Culture and decoration across a wide spectrum of forms.

Thank you for the links Ibrahiim.
One should be aware of, that flowers shown on hilts are seldom what they really looks like. The artists were not botanists, and so they often made the flowers the way which fitted them best.
The khanjarli hilt below asows this quite clearly. The flowers are supposed to be of the same kind, but the number of petals are quite different, 7, 8, 9 and 8.
On some hilts the flowers shown are made in detail, but in most cases this is not so.

Very well noted of course Jens, and the question of the intent behind the artisan's depiction of flowers and botanical themes can only be speculated.

It is often argued that in such creations, shapes and devices in either the decoration or fashioning of design elements are simply aesthetic. However, in many circumstances where there are mystical, religious, or other situations at hand we must consider the possibility of otherwise.

As we look at the flowers on this khanjhari, which are noted to have varying numbers of petals, it is tempting to consider that perhaps gemetria with mystical or magical properties could be in play.
It would seem that the preparation of a simple petaled flower in silver in a group would be easier if all the same. With the case that there are two (2) of the eight petaled flower, could this be a gemetric or magic number as with the 1414 and 1441 etc on European blades?

Though perhaps a specious exercise, and quite possibly a simple matter of aesthetics or coincidence as so often insisted, the idea is interesting if not nearly compelling.

As with anything artistic, there are always nuances, and in cases flowers may have been portrayed symbolically in a metaphoric sense. Also, as I believe Markel noted, the accuracy and detail of many floral themes degenerated along with the decay of the Mughal Empire, and as artisans failed to pass on their skills in generations following.