Amen !

@Ulfberth

homogeneous in arms means that all components, pommel grip guard and blade, from the very beginning have been together, it has nothing to do with the metal composition.

but let's shake hands because we both, very much, like antique swords.

in Holland we say; zand erover.


kind regards from Amsterdam,
Jasper

I would just like to say that the object of discussion is to do exactly what has been achieved here. We have the benefit of the knowledge and hands on expertise of both Ulfberth and Jasper, and while opposed at first, bringing in better discernible evidence aligned those opinions .
In my opinion an excellent outcome ( and very happy for Jean Luc)!

Best of all, in following the opposing views as these things unfolded gave me (and I hope others) a valuable lesson in the metallurgical aspects of observing these old swords.

Differences in opinion should not be taken personally, especially here where there are so many variables and many (like me) are actually students in varying degree. I know I never stop learning!!!

Thank you guys! Jean Luc for sharing this, and Ulfberth and Jasper for bringing forth so many factors for consideration:)

Hi Jim,

You bring us wise words, I think no one could have said it any better !

thanks

Ulfberth

Very Nice Sword, Indeed
 

Just as a note for the benefit of some of the less experienced members and lurkers who may be following this thread: It is extremely difficult to impossible for even the most experienced connoisseur to make very fine distinctions from photos, even if excellent, especially at internet resolutions. It is hard enough with the actual item in hand. I should think the components of this marvelous sword have been together for some time, though my own level of expertise within this time frame is insufficient to form much of an opinion beyond that.

I have also enjoyed the opportunity of being exposed to the reasoning of participants in this thread that are more experienced than myself in evaluating such an item.

Dangerously generalizing, I have noticed that hilt components often do survive with a different patination than the blade even when there is confidence of the varying elements having started together.

Acid cleaning does give a 'dead' dull grey matte surface rarely pleasing to an observer. The 'cure' sometimes given is re-burnishing with loss of even more material and detail.

I believe that the sword shown at the top of the second page from Oakeshott's ROtMS was in his estate and is now at the Oakeshott Institute.

This is a beautiful sword indeed, and I have learned a great deal from you gentlemen. Thank you for showing it and discussing it here.

As far as the use of this type of weapon, I have to disagree with the above-mentioned links. The treatise and the video are meant for a Montante, which was an Iberian phenomenon. The sword in question is a German two-hander and would have been handled quite differently. I believe that the German use would be close to the Lightenauer lineage than to the Spanish/Portuguese style.

yes you are absolutely right, although there is much overlap, this is absolutely not the right school for this sword.
nevertheless it is useful to give a visual impression of two-handed sword techniques.

According to Thomas Del Mar the sword can be Italian or German, out of interest what makes you think the sword is German?

best,
Jasper

Jasper,

I have no experience judging the exact origins of these swords. It looks Germanic in form, and the title says "German", so I did not think otherwise.

Coming back to how these were used in battle, I found a curious article that might she'd some light on it:

http://www.renaissancewarfare.com/1_...he-Doppel.html

how to hang a big sword.
this looks very nice;off the wall, out of line , point up and vertical.
minor problem, maybe you should get a few more of these types of swords ;)


best,
Jasper

ps thanks for the pic. Carl!

Very nice Jasper but my walls are already full ...

limit the space used by your wife...

best,
Jasper

:cool:

Did you notice that she’s already seating in the ejection seat ?

The display on the wooden stand is very nice Jean Luc, it has the advantage as you can change its place.
It is an impressive sword, if you hang it on the wall its indeed best with some other big swords or as a center piece.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

from Karsten Klingbeil collection
 

from Karsten Klingbeil collection.
Nearly the same size

the company of captain Dirck Jacobsz Rosecrans , Cornelis Ketel 1588
rijskmuseum Amsterdam.

same pommel type.

In Consideration of the Fighting Technique.
 

Salaams All, Eventually the big two handers fell out of favour...I note from Wikepedia SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_fencing QUOTE"The author Jean Daniel L'Ange writes in his book "Deutliche und gründliche Erklärung der adelichen und ritterlichen freyen Fecht-Kunst" from 1664 (another edition was published in 1708), that "a big sword is very dangerous in our times because it is more hard to carrying around with the clothing than a smaller thrusting sword which could easily be worn".

He also writes, that "it is possible to kill a man who is armed with a gun in a short range, when he stands close to you with the help of the rapier, because of the highly effective thrusting techniques, which will save your live rather than the slower cutting of a bigger sword or a sabre. You may even be able to kill him, before he can take his gun out of its halter, before he can make the first shot".

L'Ange also writes "you can hide your rapier well under your mantle and thus avoid any provocation in public. A long sword may cause problems and excite enemies". But L'Ange also pays tribute toward the Marksbrüder and says "their art is truly a knightly science, it must be preserved for the coming, yet unborn generations!". However, some civilian fencers still practised the German school instead of the rapier-fencing of the noble elite. The last known practitioner was Theodori Verolini in 1679, when he published his book Der Kůnstliche Fechter ("The Artful Fencer"), which based upon Joachim Meyers fechtbuch". UNQUOTE.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

interesting, yes I believe the two-hand sword has gone sometime in the second quarter of the 17th century out of fashion

best,
jasper

Salaams cornelistromp ...You illustrate Stunning artwork showing the weapon :)
Below; sketches and fighting technique illustration..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim

Of course all is relative to the situation as place, timing and opponent, warfare or civilian use.
However I do like the following quote:

"never overlay thy selfe with a heavy weapon,
for nimblenesse of bodie, and nimblenesse of weapon are two chief helpes for thy advantage" - Joseph Swetnam,
The Schoole of the Noble and Worthy Science of Defence, 1617

kind regards

Ulfberth

Salaams Ulfberth...Wise words indeed !! :)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams All, I note from Wikepedia, Quote" Late survivals in the modern period.

However, there are paintings from the middle of the 18th century that still show practitioners using long swords at the late fencing schools of the Marxbrüder and Federfechter. Historically, it cannot be verified if the techniques and practices of this training were anachronistic or an actual descendant of the original Liechtenauer tradition.

In 1726, Gottfired Rudolf Pommer auf Bugenhagen mentions in his publication "Sammlung von Merktwurdigkeiten" (collection of oddities) the use of long swords at the time in fencing schools of the Marxbrüder and Federfechter. Most fencers of the 18th century viewed long sword fencing as a curious thing and it was probably only taught in the few remaining fencing schools of the Marxbrüder and Federfechter and some stage fencing schools. The very last practitioners of long sword fencing may be slowly extinct with the dissolution of the Marxbrüder and Federfechter around the end of the 18th century and the early 19th century. The Swiss newspaper Neue Zürcher Zeitung mentioned on 16. April 1862 the death of an unnamed, 76-year-old (former) member of the Marksbrüder (who was a practitioner of fencing in his teenage years in the early 1800s, and was born 1786), which was possibly the very last living member until then''.Unquote. :)

Please also see https://fechtschule.wordpress.com/

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

a new set of pictures
 

Take a picture of two hands sword is really not easy and need many trials before to have good result.
This set had been made with days light.( for me the best light if you don’t have studio)
I was really not happy with the old pictures posted about this sword so I have made a new set ,I’m sorry that the site don’t hallow bigger size it would be much more better in their original size !

An impressive and beautiful sword Jean Luc and good pictures to !

kind regards

Ulfberth

Thank you Jean Luc for the upgraded photos, and for reviving this interesting thread.
Ulfberth, in rereading this thread, I wanted to thank you for the remarkable input in analyzing the physical aspects of this weapon, and to Jasper as well in discussing these.
While myself, I am more a historian studying the origins and development of forms, markings and placing various weapons in historic context, you guys are able to discern key aspects of the weapon's character physically.

This seems incredibly hard to do from photos, and even then there must be factors you must consider which are difficult to discern. Also, the very much hands on experience of you both and others who participate in commenting regarding these aspects.

We all have various angles of approach in these studies of weapons, and put together, they culminate into valuable archived resources like this thread.
Like so many other threads like this, the knowledge gained and shared is outstanding!