When it is marked out by such important museum (and motivated by donor´s legends), it is difficult to object. But, in any case, there is something strange in it. Look at another yao knives, which are more conformable to i.g. Shona style. Rivets instead of tongue in that part of Africa ...(?), such collar .... As far as me - the overal shape is more similar to Japanese fishermen boat knives (I knowingly talk a bit; I would vote to Burma or something Central Asian), than to African styles which I met till now. But, the life is neverending study...

I mentioned following story here before, so I apologize: cca 20 years ago I have given my nice knife from Finland to my friend, who was travelling to Ongota tribe in southern Ethiopia. My friend was linguist and he studdied those tribes. Once he was present to the childbirth there and so - he became something like godfather. So I gave him the Finland knife when he was going to visit the willage and to call on the boy after years - since he did not have any suitable gift with him. I hope nobody will donate this Finland knife to any museum as tradditional Ongota knife. I know this differs from the Yao case and I do not want to flout authorities, but, there could be something similar in it ...

In my personal opinion, these are not continental SEA. The general blade profile, fullering and ivory handles are strikingly similar to knives from the region, but the differences are more edifying--the partially exposed tang and bolsters are definitively not correct for that region.

Other than this observation of questionable value, I am clueless as to origin. :shrug:

I still have problems to believe that this knives are from Africa, museums are often wrong by descriptions.
Nepal could be a facility, look for example this ram-dao taken from this forum: http://www.allempires.com/forum/foru...TID=29611&PN=3
See special the mark on the blade.

Regards,
Detlef

I am with you Detlef. African knife makers make the most crude and some of the most wonderful quality knives but this is not one from Africa. How and why the museum has it wrong I do not know?

I don't see any way these knives could have been made in Sub-Saharan Africa. Maybe some made their way to East Africa from the Indian sub-continent, either as gifts to native chiefs, or trade items etc. The other possibility is simply that the museum got their attributions mixed up somehow.

You guys are forgetting the colonial powers at play here...

I certainly perceive the tang style as European , but if Wikipedia is to be believed the Yao resisted, The Brits, Germans & Portuguese. {If so they did well...}

They were Muslim slave & ivory traders trading with the Arabs... If this is correct perhaps they where originally traded there by the Arabs, along with the guns they gave them?

Obviously the Wicky article may not be entirely correct either...

I do believe they were found in Yao territory, but I don't believe the Yao made them.

spiral

I think there were deep (slave and ivory) expeeditions to the African interior organized from Zanzibar (under influence of Omani Arabs) in 19th century. In Stone Town you can find collection of mainly Congo weapons brought at that time

Interesting too are some connections. The Yao areas were Annexed by the Brits in the late 19th century, formally a little after. They too had Sikh soldiers in there as their forces....
Interesting are the blade marks on clearly African Weapons, i.e; the Kaskara and the axe of Tim's and also Jen's Tulwar...
There was a massive amount of trade throughout the regions...Yao hands may have made these but under direction of EU occupation I am sure.
With a guess for consideration too, the Malawi facial tattoos of the region in most cases, loosely bear a resemblance to the blade stamps on these knives.

Interesting stuff chaps!

Many of the NW & NWF type kukri bolster with the hidden rivet {of the same style as these knives.} were probably made by Sikhs....

Another factor as well as the possibility of Arab traders would be the Scottish based " African Lakes Company Limited" in 1878, to support missionaries & trade in ivory & store goods along the shores of Lake Nyasa and in the Lower Shire Valley in the late 1870s and early 1880s. They were heavily based on river transport.

They apparently wouldn't give the natives guns in trade {unlike the Arab slave & ivory buyers.} But I wonder if they had something, to do with these? Whether made locally, {which I doubt, but I could be wrong.} imported on made by imported labour... After all anywhere the British were the Indian traders & crafts people soon followed.

spiral

Yes Spiral - I have really enjoyed how this discussion has developed.

Arab influence in East Africa was huge from the mid 18th century onwards. Driven initially around the slave trade by the middle east Sultanates. If you look at Zanzibar for instance this was effectively controlled by the Sultan of Oman from around 1700 - 1890 when it became a British protectorate. Dar-Es- Salaam was originally an Arab built city in 1865. If they're building cities, I really can't see why these weapons couldn't have been produced by Arabs in Africa.

I do understand though why those with more knowledge than me point out that these are not normal blades associated with African tribal production.

Again open to interpretation but have a look at the pictures below, - the screen capture is Arabic script and the meaning of the word is "Attack" . Is it just me or is there similarity to the stamps on one of the blades ? Even if my translation is wrong it would seem to be Arabic script - maybe someone on the forum knows more ?

As a last thing I showed my knives to an established collector who lives in my village. The majority of this discussion has been about the Ivory one so far but his opinion was that the larger knife might actually be horn handled not wooden. This may well impact again on location of manufacture. Apparently there is a weapons event soon and my friend is going to take them up to show to his colleagues so this might generate more to talk about.
J

Most interesting. Also a great amount of WW! Indian troops in East Africa. The WW1 Africa theater is sadly not well documented by historians.

A small piece of interest on this subject (though perhaps not very relevant) - the famous African guide to several European 19th century explorers - "Sidi Mubarak Bombay" was a Yao tribesman. He spent several years in India as a young man, after having been captured as a slave when a child...

Jampot, I can see why you sy it but if it was Arabic script, many people on the website could read it.... ;)

That's interesting Colin...

Found a few photos & drawings of him, including this one hoping to see him wearing such a knife. {longshot obviously.} :shrug:

But the visible sword, once again just looks European rather than African.

But all good knowledge & grist to the mill as they say in Yorkshire... ;)

Spiral

I was also convinced that these knives were SE Asian.
But to deny their Malawi origin, I have to deny
A. Reputation and expertise of the British Museum, and
B. Testimony of 3 separate witnesses (donors) attributing each one of them to the same area in Africa.


Also, we are unaware of any other place in the world where similar type is found, weakening theory of their imported origin.

I totally agree with points A & B Ariel, & more or less agree with your third point. {Not that that rules it out.} Many wonderfull things made in Sheffield that many are/were unaware of Kachin Dow etc.

But could produced in Africa by Immigrant workers? :shrug: That seems quite likely to me?

Failing that, produced in Africa by locals after an suitable apprenticeship would seem the only other likely possibility?


spiral

Interestingly, this type of knife also appears on the National Museum of Scotland website, as coming from Malawi. H'mm, perhaps a rethink is required...

I can see how over generations of museum staff might perpetuate an original cataloging error, if this is the case? Future reference could then also be wrong. Having worked for the British Museum I know that not all ethnographic collection and donations {especially Africa ealier in the 20th century} were accurately recorded at the time of coming into collection, but often done many years later. This is a very confusing situation. The ram doa is surely an Asian artifact. What are we to make of the knives that are clearly derived from it, we cannot deny that? :shrug:

Tim, I think you were on the right path originally in this thread, meaning African.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

You also mention Ram Dao, but they are95% heavier forward curved weapons with the absence of such markings, nor are the markings to blade or hilt shared by other weapons of the regions of India or SEA.

Its hard to ignore the Kaskara stamp I presented when it looks so much like these;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=burma

There is also the pommel in post 56, page two here, nothing Asian in its shape;http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=khodmi

I am certain Central Asia can be dismissed.

To better support the origins, those with them could subject the hilts to scientific examination, ie African or Asian ivory....of course one could refute the data says ivory was heavily traded but I think with all the information at hand the origins have been firmly placed for now and this may support Africa too.

If an Asian flavour is felt in this knife, which I see by profile, both the English and the Sikhs with them were heavily found in Burma...perhaps just an industrious Brit with other service abroad was making some coin on the side as it is not a pure African creation by style?

It is impossible to exclude outside influence, immigrant manufacturer or skills acquired elsewhere.
But let's agree that the place of production was in Malawi and that the construction is not purely SE Asian ( as per Andrew) and not Afghani.

I am even willing to go farther: the incredible uniformity of these knives, their radical distinctness from the traditional local examples and their closeness of dating may (may!) suggest a single shop, perhaps even short-lived.

I concur these occur from Malawi, & perhaps were made there under either British or Indian supervision.

There are many others of related style, but lesser quality, Ive just found on a English dealers for sale website.

Obviously I cant link to or post them here, due to forum rules.

But if anyone would like the photos of several others including some possibly of more primitive style, Then just send me an email at spiraltwista@aol.com & Ill forward the photos. {Put Yao in the email title, so they don't go to spam..}

spiral

I'm in agreement with Spiral's original thoughts here. I once saw a similar knife described in an auction catalogue as Swahili Arab, unfortunately, with no further detail. But this could explain a lot.
The "unafricanness", because of the Arab\Persian\Indian influence on the Swahili, indeed the presence of Arabs etc. on the East African coast.
The presence in Malawi, because of the trading links the Swahili had with the interior. Indeed places such as Tabora in Tanzania are described as originally "Arab" settlements, by which is meant coastal Swahili and followers. Any knife made there would be unlikely to follow the local African tradition. They do not even have to be trade items. Reading early journals of exploration in East and Central Africa one is struck by the incessant giving of presents ("hongo") necessary to get anywhere or anything done. Such a present could, and did, take the form of personal possessions and weaponry, if that is what the local chieftain desired.
The threads on Omani daggers have concluded, perhaps not with 100 o/o certainty, that many daggers collected in and attributed to Oman are in fact Saudi Arabian, which illustrates the danger of conflating the place of collection with the place of origin.
I would also like to mention the well known, but also slightly mysterious "Zanzibar" nimcha. This also doesn't seem to bear any relationship to any other sub-saharan African weapon, and although photo's can be found of Swahili Arabs with these or similar nimchas no one seems to know where they were actually made.
These knives and the Zanzibar nimcha are not common, but neither could you call them rare, thus I surmise they are a "type" rather than an individual manufacture. I would suggest a Swahili origin, being African but with very significant Asian influences would fit the bill.
Regards
Richard

Certainly possible Richard, .....

More evidence required!

Any listed in pre.ww2 sales catalogue's anyone?

spiral

This one was offered by ebay but wasn't sold. Remarkable is that the handle material seems to be from hippo ivory. Pictures from the seller.

Good find Sajen.

This is a link to some Ivory jewellery from Malawi attributed to the Zomba region which was settled by the Yao. The decoration is very similar to the weapon you show and identical to the designs on my knives.

linky

This picture is of Hugh Stannus Stannus one of the key donors to the BM that helps with the placement of these knives. Hugh Stannus Stannus 1877-1957 was medical officer to the King's African Rifles from 1905-1914 whilst they were based in British Central Africa (Malawi). He also published a written work on the Wa-Yao people in 1922 and was a well recognised expert in African study.

There is a more detailed description of Stannus and his work here linky

I had been watching this on too Detlef, and was just about to post the images myself, you beat me to it. I too noticed the Hippopotamus ivory. The scabbard construction, while by no means necessarily original, seems to me to be very African in style and finish.

Both the Hippopotamus ivory and scabbard tend to support an African origin as discussed above. I have wanted one of these, but like others had believed Burma/Assam to be the origin. My opinion is now starting to change - but I still want one.

Great stuff Sajen & indeed Jampot... well spotted!

Its obviously the same chap who brought this one back.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/collect....jpg?width=304

So I think the Yao/ Malawi finding of these is above reproach myself.

Just who made/sold them, is the last bit of the puzzle.

I still think the African trading Company could be plausible! But so could other Indian or British entrepreneurs, The to me seem a bit late in dating for them to be from Arab slave trade, but in truth I guess that carried on a for a long time, just as slavery still does today...

spiral

Yes, indeed, it seems that we all have been wrong with our believe of Asian origin for this daggers. :eek:

GOLD STAR Jampot! Great detective work.

Quote:

:D


I'll settle for a silver star

Thor might have saved us all the trouble some time back as looking back each and every one looks hippo now that Sajen ponted this out....

Bronze star I think Gav. ;) Algeria as far away as India from Malawi I reckon! :D ;)

Damn... hippo pegs! Wonder what the horn ones are?



Another Gold star for Ariel I think though... :)



spiral

Thanks, but the Gold goes to my Russian colleagues who identified it. I was just a messenger.

The good old Pitt Rivers Museum (Oxford) never disappoints.
Regards
Richard
http://databases.prm.ox.ac.uk/fmi/iw...ne&-loadframes

Salaams Richard G.... In what capacity do you assume Omani Daggers originate in the Saudia Region? ... Did you look at my extensive thread Omani Khanjars? I cant recall mentioning any such thing. In fact it isn't true. They don't. What there is on research indicates that the Royal Khanjar and the Muscat Khanjar did a certain amount of migrating to Saudia in one case stepping stone to Saudia via the Yemen and in another probably linked via the big trade and slaver caravan camel trains to the eastern region of what is now KSA from Buraimi Oman. So far as I am aware ... no reverse influence occurred. The swords and Daggers are totally different suggesting that they developed independently in Oman centuries ago(in fact in both countries independant of each other and quite unrelated except in the 2 cases I have noted). However if you can suggest a link I would be delighted to investigate it.
I would imagine that the Nimcha you speak of from Zanzibar is well enough researched to point to manufacture and style variation related to other Nimchas as illustrated in Butin..in Forum Library. I think it unwise to rely upon photographs as you will find ...there aren't that many... something typically found in research in the Arab regions generally. Going beyond photos we rely on sketches ...but then when they run dry it is often traditional, passed down word of mouth which is almost impossible to prove ...and which has been totally ignored by all of the old explorers into the region..That then is the dilemma we run against in deep research here...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I don't think that the hippo ivory is a good proof for the African origin, you can find this material in Malaysia, Indonesia or also the Philippines.
But the necklace Jampot have shown by link is a good one which was conclusive IMO. ;)

Regards,
Detlef

SAW - Many thanks for Gold Star, will bear it proudly !

Richard G - River Pitts museum great resource, just been through Malawi exhibits and plenty more supporting evidence.

Spiral - reference the horn one could you have a look at this and tell me what you think. Not sure if they would have used this material for a knife grip but looks very similar in colour and density? Also contains same sort of pigmented decoration.



link

Thanks Richard, sadly my pc seems not to work with there database... what software is required to show there data. files?

spiral

Much research in the classroom is just finding a source. ;) You've still got a gold star. despite you being a member of the usually English Self depreciating society. :eek:

But yes your Russian colleagues certainly deserve a gold star as well! :)

spiral

Spiral,
I don't think I have any special software, but in my setup, Windows Vista and Google Chrome, you do have to untick the pop up blocker in Google Chrome if you want to see the individual item. I had no trouble doing the search and getting to the list I hope you could see. For reasons beyond my savvy, I noticed some pictures appeared in the "pop up" which were not on the original search results'
Hope this helps.
Richard

Ahh Many thanks Richard, Im on windows 8.1 but was using explorer. Ill give chrome a try on it. ;)

spiral

ps.. great chrome works with it indeed!

A lovely example!

Acquired in Malawi 3 September 1893. bought at auction 1901..

Interestingly the steel is clearly more primitive at this date...


I rather suspect the Scots Run African company , had these made on locally, with British/Indian overseers... { Based on no evidence whatsoever though...:shrug: }

spiral

Ibrahim,
I fear I have not explained my thoughts clearly. What I meant is that certain jambiyas/khunjars that appear in reference books and whose attributed origin many of us accepted as fact turns out out be doubtful, at best.

For example the Ruth Hawley dagger, attributed to Oman and probably the Sharqiyah in particular.
Why?, almost certainly because it was collected there.
Now we think it is probably Saudi Arabian.
Why?, because it has the characteristics of a Saudi Arabian dagger.
Explanation. A Saudi Arabian type of jambiya made in Oman? or a Saudi Arabian jambiya that has found its way into the Oman?
If it was made in Oman it is an Omani dagger, if it was made in Saudi Arabia and collected in Oman it still remains a Saudi Arabian dagger. Do we know which it is?

My point as regards these Malawi daggers was that just because they were collected in Malawi does not necessarily mean they were made in Malawi.
I now accept that the available evidence strongly suggests they were made in Malawi, but I still think they are not typically sub-saharan African, and it would be interesting to know why.
Regards
Richard