Ethnographic Arms & Armour - Kattara restoration

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- Ethnographic Weapons (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=2)

- - Kattara restoration (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18643)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral,
No not at all ... Ive been hugely busy on a completely different subject but I apologise if you were waiting ..
.

Your apologies are due to Kuber, not I ... I was just jogging your memory. :)

But you still haven't appraised the detail of his sword yet. {As you said you would.} Instead you choose to reply to me. :confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

You have listed 6 swords of Oman. There are, however, not 6. Your first three are correct... with the slight proviso that the 1744 and the 15 year thing was me rather thinking aloud as it is now possible that the dancing sword may have been tuned in by the later ruler in 1804 (Said Bin Sultan...) and it may have taken a while to spread countrywide ...from its base in the Askeris or Palace Guard possession.

Your number;

4. Is non existant.
5. Is a non starter since it was only since 1970 that thousands of these rehilts have been sold as Tourist items in the souk... German/ Ethiopian Rehilts.
6. Is clearly imprecise since in Oman the Shamshiir was a badge of office reserved almost singly for Royalty / very important people.

.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.... I disagree though.
After all 4. does exist, Old Tippo tuo had one ;)

5. You deny 5, When it is you who tell us how your friends have been making & selling them since 1970... so clearly you know this type exists. :eek:

6, whats imprecise about shamshir from Oman? The dress is recognisable. {Please explain without talking about ,things that are not relevant.}

So I think in future many of us will recognise & refer to these 6 types of Omani swords. I certainly will. ;)

Spiral

Spiral, just curious. In your last post you are making well stated comments expressing your views, but .....
claiming someone is mistaken or confused
if you choose to bury your head in the sand
Accusatory remarks about #5
#6 please explain in great detail ..without
getting confused etc etc.

Really????

I know you are well versed in these topics, and your posts reflect useful information as a rule, but I am a bit disappointed in these kinds of remarks .
I enjoy the discourse on these threads and we all learn a lot together, but this kind of stuff is .....well, you know what I mean.

I'm just sayin' ....and not just to you, but everyone who resorts to these kinds of comments. Courtesy and respect .......try to remember those and its not just toward others, it reflects on yourselves as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for the timely reminder Jim. Your quite right of course & Ive edited my post to correct that.

All the best,
Spiral

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Thank you for the timely reminder Jim. Your quite right of course & Ive edited my post to correct that.

All the best,
Spiral

Thanks Spiral, I just want us all to stay focused on the subject matter and express our views without rancor or frustration, we're all better than that :)
Much appreciated,
All the best,
Jim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Spiral,
No not at all ... Ive been hugely busy on a completely different subject but I apologise if you were waiting ..

You have listed 6 swords of Oman. There are, however, not 6. Your first three are correct... with the slight proviso that the 1744 and the 15 year thing was me rather thinking aloud as it is now possible that the dancing sword may have been tuned in by the later ruler in 1804 (Said Bin Sultan...) and it may have taken a while to spread countrywide ...from its base in the Askeris or Palace Guard possession.

Your number;

4. Is non existant.
5. Is a non starter since it was only since 1970 that thousands of these rehilts have been sold as Tourist items in the souk... German/ Ethiopian Rehilts.
6. Is clearly imprecise since in Oman the Shamshiir was a badge of office reserved almost singly for Royalty / very important people.

The trouble is like many objects of this nature it is extremely difficult to narrow it down as to start point. That being said we have despite the difficulties engineered some very logical and often well backed up theories.

The major document apart from the one in my head (comprising about 30 years of personal research) is the Richardson and Dorr double volume ...but even that and others plus documentation from prestigious places like Icoman and Omanisilver dot com and the wealth of museums in Muscat are sprinkled with imprecise detail.. they never say for example : This sword was invented in WXYZ or this battle saw the following weapons deployed.... it simply does not exist in the archives so far studied.

One of my main resources is the Funun which wasn't even written down; such is the nature of passed down parents-to-offspring of Omani history via pageantry, pantomime, singing and poetry.... and for additional good reasons since, in the old days hardly anyone here could read and write !! Vital background in this respect should be studied at http://www.octm-folk.gov.om/meng/rhythem.asp

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

On top of which there are some more superb references about the Sword Genre or Funun, the first of which describes the Razha ..at http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...=21104401332677

The second is highly recommended and since I first refer to it on Kattara for comments it is relevant in a number of threads; The major work done by W.H. Ingrams variously published a number of times but generally referred to as a 1931 edition titled Zanzibar History and its Peoples and on page 205 the entire reference states ... as it is set down in Kattara for comments at #18 0n http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

viz;

Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

However what I find amazing is...This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar).

Both paragraphs above are correct. The first is word for word the same as in the book and the second paragraph is a paraphrasing out of parenthesis but meaning virtually what is written or very closely to it.This can be found by pressing the link and inserting the simple word Manga into search inside... where the entire paragraph can be sourced. I think there are some versions with an alternative name for Mwarcha ie a minor alteration...but not serious..

The link is http://books.google.co.uk/books/abou...d=oYhrCkGaxyUC

My next reference is The Omani Dancing Sword at #189 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...205#post173205 The by now famous summary.

Thus I begin to hammer in the foundations around the subject which then need disproving by equally relevant references .

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I would like to remind EVERYONE interested and involved in this thread of the OP's original intent, to get helpful ideas for the restoration of his sword, an inquiry which i do not believe was EVER properly addressed before it became hijacked as an extension on the Omani Dance Sword thread arguments. I would suggest that this is therefore NOT the place to continue what seems to be the never ending battle between certain parties over the existence of straight battle swords vs. flexible dance swords and that continuing along those lines is only likely to bring this thread to the same tragic end as the now infamous dance sword thread.
So, can anyone help Kubur with his restoration questions. ;)

Anyone else tired of this yet?

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I agree. As a result, I am closing this thread as well. So as not to penalize the OP, I will re-start this topic in another thread. If the new thread ends up derailed by OT posts it, too, will be closed.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff