Jim, insofar as Jawa & Bali are concerned, any weapon, indeed any object, including cooking pots, stirrups, buckles, walking sticks and a vast array of other objects, including farmland, can be regarded as "pusaka" and be considered to hold some of the properties of a keris that come from being pusaka. Such associated properties would include elements of ancestor worship and as status markers.

However, only the keris as pusaka possesses the special properties of cosmic symbolism and unification. Only the keris is a required part of formal dress.

I do not doubt for one moment that indigenous smiths in the old Indies made VOC marked blades, both for use by VOC personnel, and in some cases to provide additional talismanic content in the form of the VOC symbol. Indigenous Maritime South East Asian belief systems tend to be inclusive, rather than exclusive, so if a new source of power came upon the scene it was thought to be a good idea to include the symbolism of the new power along with the existing symbolism. This line of thought was particularly so in Jawa. For that matter, it still applies in Jawa with a segment of the population.

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall I would ask here again from yourself and others with expertise concerning the keris and associated weapons…are similar properties that are inherent in the keris also imbued in other edged weapons such as pedang, badik and others? [/QUOTE]
I would say yes Jim. The cultural relationship might not be exactly the same as the keris, but Tosan Aji as a sacred heirloom weapon extends to many different kinds of blades in the region.

Thank you so much Alan for that perfectly detailed explanation and that is important to know in evaluating the presence of VOC blades in various weapons throughout these regions. Actually that does make good sense in noting that the VOC symbol may well have been added to existing elements in their beliefs and symbolism.
I had forgotten that in many cases symbols and markings from outside sources, such as trade blades into colonial settings in India, North Africa etc. were indeed adopted into native perceptions and seen as talismanic and or imbuements of power and quality.
The great part of these kinds of discussions is learning!
Thank you as well David for your response.

VOC blade
 

@ Erik: Thank you for posting this one. Now we have an example from before 1903! As we know Bataks allready made touristic items at the end of the 19th century, this is not the case here.
I don't think VOC marked blades where allready seen as treasures in swordcollectors collections. :D


I'm not sure about the provenance of this one.
A long time ago I copied the picture from a Dutch museum database. However I wasn't smart enough to write down from which database I copied it from.
I can not find so quickly where I got it from, but it's worth showing.

As far as I can remember, I thought it was coming out of the famous Visser collection, but I'm not sure.

Maurice

Maurice, thank you for posting this! This is exactly the shellguard form I had indicated apparently made in Solingen (in many cases) for the VOC, and the one I saw was dated 1685 (with the quad lozenges on either side and VOC). I believe the Visser collection was mentioned in one of the descriptions.
Another like this was shown by Harvey Withers dated 1787, illustrating how long these were in use.

You are exactly right, back in those days swords were around everywhere and often these 'average' pieces were simply in heaps in old rummage shops etc. (as often described by Oakeshott) . The only arms in demand were usually high end rapiers and ornate examples. Even back in my early days (late 50s early 60s +) you could still get great examples for under 200 bucks of stuff like Scottish basket hilts etc. It is heartrending to look at some of the old sale catalogs and the prices as well as examples themselves.
Often these old acquisitions come out of estates these days, and of course with astonishing results at auction! These old cutlasses must have been around in many tens of thousands, but where are they now!!! ??

A VOC blade dated 1780 in the collection of "Zeeuws maritiem museum".

I reckon you've been at this game about as long as I have Jim.

My collecting started with the gift of my grandfather's small collection when I was 12 in 1953. I started buying for myself a couple of years after that.

Yes, if we look at what we had to pay back in the 1950's and compare to the prices of today it can make our hearts bleed.

But we tend to forget what wages were back then.

I started work in 1957. My first week's pay was about $10 (about 5 Australian pounds). At that time I had no qualification and was working as a junior clerk for a government agency. In 1955 in Australia an adult tradesman received about $15 for a 40 hour week

Some time in 1957 I bought an old Javanese keris:- Tuban, ivory hilt, badly damaged scabbard. It cost me about $60 (+/- 30 pounds). Six weeks pay. I had saved this money to buy a repeating rifle, I'd only had a single shot at the time, but the keris won.

Now tell me:-

how long does a junior clerk work these days to get enough to buy a middle quality 22RF bolt action rifle?

In Australia I reckon that less than a week's work will get him something pretty OK.

For an adult tradesman the cost will be about 2 or 3 days work, not the month that an adult tradesman would have had to work to buy the rifle in 1955.

What is today's value of a keris such as I describe?

Well, a junior clerk will work a bit longer than a week to get a keris such as I bought in 1957, but it won't be anywhere near the 5 weeks that I worked to get that keris.


In fact Jim, it is more affordable to collect edged weapons now than it has been at any time during the last 60 years.

Well noted Alan!!! and it is of course quite relative. If I tell one of these 'young' people I still remember 19 cent gasoline they look at me like I'm from another planet :)
In perspective it is indeed probably quite affordable to collect these days, but there is a distinct stratus according to what field is being collected. I was lucky in that I was far more historian than discerning collector, so the examples I got were often pretty beat up, but obviously not fooled with.
These were the rough old warriors which had their stories to tell ,
kinda like us :)

Yeah, I guess so Jim.

Back in the 1950's and 1960's here in Oz, a good keris, a good Indo-Persian piece, a good Jap sword were all worth around about the same money, which in the mid-'50's was about 100 pounds.

Ordinary workers did not collect unless they were willing to sacrifice a lot. A real lot.

That is not the case today.

I owned a javanese pedang with a VOC blade a few(4?)years ago.
I found the pictures again, unfortunately not very good pictures.
But they give once more an impression of the blade form.

At that time I also sent these pictures to the dutch Army museum, and the curator confirmed that this was very likely an original VOC blade used for a javanese pedang.
To be sure he had to see the blade in hands, but I did not make the trip to the museum.
To stick with Alan's story. The pedang cost me about 1,5 days pay.
(I am pretty normal working class btw)
And when I sold it shortly after I did not make a noticable profit :-)

best regards,
Willem

Salaams All~ I think the size and scope of the VOC operation was colosal ... This was a huge trading block not only in terms of transporting goods internationally by sea but as Ship Builders and Fortress Constructors it was mindblowing !! They arrived in Batavia (Jakarta) and built this...

Their operation was huge ... backed by an in built militia and private navy... :shrug:

Thank you Willem for posting your Javanese pedang.
Most of the Indonesian swords with the VOC mark in the blade seems to be from Java.
As the Dutch were very dominant in their present overhere (we all have heard about Batavia, even some of you don't know what it exactly was) it can't be a coincedence to encounter most of the VOC blades overhere.

@ Jim and Alan: Yes the bad old days...when people could count on their pension still.... :)

Maurice

Last week I spoke with an older collector who mentioned most keris were around 200 guilders in the Netherlands in the late 70s to early 80s - that is more than you will have to pay today for a "simple" keris. So looking back they were more expensive in that period as well. Maybe internet has brought relative prices down?

Anyway we should stay on topic - VOC blades :)

Good idea Erik!

Here three swords with VOC dated blades in the Tropenmuseum collection of Amsterdam.
Two Timor swords, and one Batak sword.
One Timor sword came in the collection in 1887, and I think we can assume the other two also around that time as it's coming out of the same collection of the "Koninklijk Zoologisch Genootschap Natura Artis Magistra".

The VOC stamps, are all three marked with the "A" from the Amsterdam chamber, dated 1749, 1768 and 1786.


Maurice

And a Borneo lance, donated by Herman Celosse to the Bronbeek museum Arnhem in 2012.

Salaams All Note to Library Please see http://www.hubert-herald.nl/IndonesiaVOC.htm#VOC for a comprehensive description of The Voc and related companies and histories/ stamps etc etc
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Mercenary Switch Over. Dutch to British.
 

Salaams All ~It is interesting to note who was fighting for who!

Here is a small snippet regarding the switch over of mercenaries from the Dutch period to the British;

From http://www.army.lk/history.php

~ Quote''During the first half century of British occupation there were uprisings and palace intrigues particularly after the adventure into the Kandyan Kingdom. The Kandyan forces resorted to guerrilla warfare and were quite successful in their conflict against a better armed force of the British. Initially the British had their own troops for the defence of the Island which included naval vessels, artillery troops and infantry. Their headquarters was in Trincomalee.

In 1796, troops in the Dutch service who were Swiss and Malay were mercenaries transferred to the British East India Company. The Malays formed initially as a Malay Corps and later in 1802 as the 1st Ceylon Regiment under a British Commanding Officer. In the same year, a 'Sinhalese' unit was raised and called the 2nd Ceylon Regiment, also known as the 'Sepoy' corps. In 1803 a 3rd Ceylon Regiment was raised with Moluccans and recruits from Penang. All these regiments fought in the Kandyan wars of 1803. More Sinhalese and Malays were recruited to these regiments and in 1814 a 4th regiment was raised comprising African troops. In 1817 the name of the regiment was changed to the Ceylon Rifle Regiment.

After the Matale rebellion led by Puran Appu in 1848, the recruitment of Sinhalese was stopped. The history of the Ceylon Rifle Regiment marks the first phase of the employment of non-British personnel in Ceylon for service in the British Military establishment".Unquote.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Just when you thought it was safe to buy on e-fake...
 

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

:)

A quick brief on VOC is on http://www.nusantara-delft.nl/en/his...e-voc-periode- From which I have extracted a plan of Batavia fort showing the canal system, The Governor, and a Kastane sword shown separately recorded as with a VOC blade mark.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi :shrug:

the hembrug marked blade on pg.1 of the thread is from a dutch klewang.

like this one of mine: (we've discussed these before, ad nauseum)
(mine's got a solingen made blade tho :) )

i do have a pedang that has a numerical marking and some scroll work that looks much like some of the examples, no VOC logo tho.has no. 350 on the other side. (grip is what i use for my avatar) not sure what that 1st 18??? number is tho.

Hi Willem,

Here a close up photo I have made last week visiting the museum.

I was a kind of in a hurry, but if I'm right it was from a donation somewhere in the 20th century..

Though this javanese with VOC mark seems also to be collected early!
(From the Zeeuws Museum in Middelburg).

PS I think the VOC mark would make the item much more valuable to collect.
For instance how much would you give for the lid of a chest with VOC mark, and how much would you pay for the same lid without the VOC mark?

:-)

Hello Maurice,

You're making the best of your holidays !

Thank you for sharing these pictures.
Interesting to see a blade with "M" Middelburg marking.

The javanese style pedang with silver scabbard is realy great.

Best regards,
Willem

All,

Attached some pictures of my VOC boarding-cutlass.

Who can identify the hilt for me?

Thanks in advance,

Fried Krom

Hello Fried,

You have a good old Batak podang with VOC blade.
I have seen several podangs with VOC blade and it is always nice seeing one pop up here or there.

Best wishes,
Maurice

Salaams Maurice, Refering back to your post 44 ....I think from this source please see https://www.nmm.nl/zoeken-in-de-coll...detail/316391/ Sorry I couldnt get a translation...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :)

Recently I made a post including a Spanish-Philippine hilt with a blade marked 1736 and the symbol from the Amsterdam chamber of the VOC.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24137

I also mention there a couple of threads with VOC blades, not shown here:

Keris:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29

Japanese:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ies+Company%29

To add to the diversity of regions, I've a simple early old Guom of tradtional form here with a VOC blade too.

Gavin

Another to add, similar opi to examples in post #55. This blade had deep rust and very corroded, it took a lot of work to remove. Quite the surprise to find the markings. The 1741 date can be read on both sides but the VOC logo with Amsterdam stamp mostly eroded from one side but legible on the other. This is a double edged sword, same three grooves at vase of blade as examples from Tropenmuseum. Sort of a colonial full circle with the Dutch East Indies coin from 1945...

A vietnamese Guom with VOC blade... no blade images currently on file...

Thank you Gav and Jeff for reviving this thread!
When I began this in 2014, my goal was to learn more on the blades with VOC markings, and how widely diffused they were through the 'Indies' and Asia.
Also, I was curious on the convention of placing the year adjacent to the VOC balemark along with initial of the chamber (there were 6) of origin.
Most common was of course the 'A' for Amsterdam.

Most of these blades were hanger type, mostly on 'cutlass' type swords, it seems these were of course likely in use on the vessels. As typical these were held in arms stores and not 'issued' individually. However, their profound diffusion among native populations suggest these were often traded.

In "Arsenal of the World". J.P. Puype 1996 (pp.47-50, 'VOC Under Arms', C.O.van der Meij);
"...the VOC used edged weapons, albeit to a lesser extent. The swords that were given to sea captains were mostly ceremonial weapons. Soldiers that went to Ceylon got a backsword. These backswords were called 'pedarme' were thought to be more useful when climbing mountain (?) or marching through forests. There are by the way, various opinions about the way these swords looked".

As far as I know, there have not been examples of such an arming sword with backsword blade known with the VOC mark, so it adds to the topic of the marking of VOC on blades.

On p. 50 (Puype op. cit) it is noted that Asian weapons were highly sought as collectible by rich merchants who bought these and all kinds of exotic items as curiosities. While it is known that VOC troops never used native weapons, preferring their own European forms, it seems possible they might have traded the European edged weapons for native items. This was a common circumstance in colonial situations. As seen by most references on arms of these times, the emphasis was always on guns, and mention of edged weapons is almost incidental.

What I am curious about is why the year invariably in line with the VOC and kamer initial? The latest year I have seen is 1793 (VOC ended in 1796), the earliest 1736. In contrast, the English counterpart, their East India Co. (VEIC) never marked the blades of their edged weapons, only guns and locks (aside from bayonets) with their balemark.

I have understood these blades were either Solingen or made in Holland by perhaps German makers based there. The hilting seems to have been in Dutch shops.
There was a central warehouse at Kloveniersburgwal called East India House, as the arsenal for all weapons, but wonder if appropriate stamping of blades to each chamber was done there or in such location in chamber itself?

Jim, thank you for your learned insights here.

Unfortunatly I cannot fully read the date on this Guom example... 17 is there and a partial 0.

The Kamer stamp is partial too... looks like "H".

There are numerous other European stamps to the blade on both sides, Equal armed crosses at each end, effectively encapsulating the date markings. There are crescent symbols that are perhaps "moons" and some other hints of markings I've yet to reveal under the thick old build up on the blade.

Length, blade is 64cms.

When considering this Preanger Gobang I had many years ago with a blade just under 51cm long, it is easy to see how the blades were trimmed to fit native applications.
Further to this, the "H" on the Guom is not large like the "A" on the Gobang and it is below the VOC markings, not above.
What all the orientation means or leads to, I cannot say.

Gavin

Thanks so much Gav!
This is really interesting and I wish we could see the blade to see these makings in configuration as this sounds like it could be an anomaly as far as VOC blades.
If I recall there were variations in the placement of the kamer initial, the A for Amsterdam was most common; with Rotterdam and Middelburg next in commonality. I cannot say I have ever seen an 'H' which may well be for Hoorn.

Of the six chambers , in the 18th c. Hoorn lost its importance as a port city, but retained its place as a regional trade center for localities there. No idea how such subordination might apply, but thought worth noting.