The biggest difference I see is that Jose's has one baca-baca and Piang's has two. Otherwise they are virtually identical.

Well, besides the rings difference there is also a difference on the upper ukil of both krises. The spine of the asang-asang's stirrup is very visible and it look like it was connected to the top ring of the handle. Maybe, after Piang's death, who ever inherited his sword, managed to dismantle the handle and removed the frit side clamp and stirrup? :shrug: preferred a single instead of two?

photos for comparison. Piang's top ring spacing between those ukil is a bit shorter and missing a few details compare to Jose's.

If I am not mistaken, your kris has an internal asang-asang stirrup which was probably coiled in the tang of your kris? Datu Piang has an external clamp stirrup, you can clearly see the stirrup's ins and outs from those handle rings.

I do not know if this will help, but here is a side by side of the three hilt photos.

Robert

CCual thanks for finding a sharper and more complete picture than mine. Robert thank you for the comparison pictures.

Also notice that the kris in Datu Piang's hand has metal straps going up 2 opposite sides of the hilt where as mine doesn't have any.

Ok boys and girls. It looks some things have changed.

First the good news: upon further clean up I have discovered remnants of a second silver baca-baca clamp on the back of the blade.

Now the bad news: that means I'll now have to take the hilt off again and make a brand new silver baca-baca, attempting to match the other one. :mad:

Also the remains of a silver strap on the present baca-baca - not sure if it went up into the hilt or up the sides of the hilt like in the Datu Piang's picture. :confused:

It seems to be getting closer and closer to looking exactly like the one in the picture. :shrug:

Hello Jose, Not trying to be the wet blanket here, but the only way that your example could be the one shown in the photo of Datu Piang would be if the orange swassa filigree section has been replaced. Both hilts are very simalar but not quite the same. This is just my personal opinion on these hilts and I am by NO means an expert on kris or for that matter anything else. :o I will leave with a question though. Could this possibly be another of the Datu's kris but just one that is more ornate than the one in the photo? :shrug:

Best,
Robert

CCUAL colored pic helps a lot in picking up more details. you could clearly see the double straps running on the front and back. with that said, notice that the straps are wrapped by what appears to be a wide strip of cloth(?) in between the rings.
jose, if for some reason the ring/band closest to the pommel is moveable, i would bet it's the same kris.

re-did the ring. i did it a bit high on the first one.

... and another thing that don't make any sense is the ring/band placement. There's no rhyme or rhythm to it. Normally it's ring/space/ring/space/ ring/space/ring. meanwhile, Jose's kris goes ring/space/ring/space/ring/ring. Never seen that sequence before unless the final ring slid off. .

Well Robert, I am not claiming that mine is the same as that in the picture. Part of this comes by answering Spunger's question - so far as I can tell, the top ring cannot come off nor does it seem moveable.

These are the best that I can do for comparison photos of the two hilts. I don't Know if they will be of any further help or not, but here they are non the less.

Robert

Unbelievable piece!!! :eek:
Selos. :p

Robert, thank you for the type of comparison you made in pictures. It helps - yes uncanny similarity.

Dimasalang, I understand...... :D

some more photoshopping...

Jose, do the bands show any wear where (if this originally had the two outside straps) they might have made contact? Also does the band closest to the end of the hilt have gaps where the straps would have gone underneath it like shown in the photo above?

Robert

It could be an identical, but it looks very much the same as datu Piangs kris!

Very fascinating and probably the best find in years Jose!

Maurice

Sorry for joining the party that late... ;)

Congrats Jose - I'm very glad you got this spectacular kris to mellow the sorrow earlier this year!

While Jose's kris is very, very similar to Datu Pinang's shown on the well-known pic, I'm sure it's not the same piece: There are several differences in details - most obviously seen in the okir of the wing; also the ring closest to the blade seem to be differently ornamented. You can most easily verify if you check the holes/windows of the open-worked okir along the edge of the wing starting from the curly tip: it goes small-large-small vs. large-small-large. Despite the limited resolution of the Datu Pinang pic, there are some more okir details that are different. It would still be very interesting to hear wether there is any wear detectable that would indicate a similar strap construction.

I agree that the placement of the rings is kinda odd. However, pushing the last ring further toward the pommel into a similar position as shown on the historic pic, would pretty much kill the flow of lines of a major part of the okir work. Not that hiding stuff and breaking the rhythm is something unheard of in this culture but still...

This find really did clear up many questions I had been mulling over when looking at that pic of Datu Pinang's kris again and again - kudos to Jose for sharing his treasure!

Best wishes,
Kai

Yes Kai, but isn't that exactly what it also does in the historic photo of Datu Pinang? :shrug:

The kris on Piang's picture is the clearest we've got but unfortunately the minute details are very hard to discern, so I was basing my assumption on the the general outline. The details you mentioned are unfortunately pretty smeared, and we can just again assume that it might or might not be similar. I was looking at the reverse number 7, the three pretzel looking okir to the right of it, another pretzel/bowtie looking okir just above the reverse 7, and the overall motif of the wing appendage okir. But then again Jose mentioned that the top ring is immovable, so I guess it's all moot...
:shrug:

Photos from ebay auction. See photo #3 the ring was cut for internal clamp stirrup.

The only problem with this supposition is that there is absolutely no room for internal fitting because the wood core is too tight against the fittings and there no room either next to the tang (yes I took off the hilt).

I find it more likely that the silver strip bend in a way that part went on top and the other part went up the hilt.

However in general I would agree with you.

Honestly, I am with Spunjer on this one, if this kris is not the one on the photo there is a stought possibility that this belongs to datu Piang's
personal collections. The extravagance of materials used in your kris
is superlative that only a well off datu can afford or Piang himself.
In the other hand, this might had belonged to a datu influenced by
Piang or blood related.

I was right behind you on that auction, I kind'da bumped a little for you as I wanted it my self, I had the same thoughts about it. I would keep it as is if that was mine, we just do not know for fact what's behind it. Sweet catch Albovias. :)

I hope you don't get bored with it right away and start monkeying with it. :D

Here is a picture of what I am talking about: the evidence of a second baka-baka.

And these pictures illustrate evidence of the possibility of another ring - note the cuts in the swassa metal along the lines parallel to the other rings below.

Thus I will try to make a second baka-baka to match the other with metal strips going up the sides. However, I may just leave the top ring alone since it is very tight and I am afraid of breaking it.

Jose, I can easily see the shadow of where the second baka-baka was originally but as to the cut marks in the swassa, they seem too random and I really do not see a pattern or anything else that would indicate that there was another ring (now missing) on the hilt. I hope that you will share photos of the process involved in the making of the new baka-baka and securing strips as well as the finished product.

Best,
Robert

José, i know how much you enjoy fiddling with these things, but if this really is or even has a strong possibility of being the historically important kris that we have been talking about here are you SURE you want to make changes to it like that? :shrug:

After re-reading my earlier post I want to make it clear that I am only in favor of replacing parts such as the baka-baka and its retaining straps that have evidence that clearly show it was an original part of the hilt that it is now missing. As to the securing straps that run on the outside of the hilt, (like the ones shown on the other kris) unless there is evidence to show proof positive that these parts were originally on this hilt it is MHO that they should not be added.

Robert

Battara,

Fantastic cleaning job on the Kris. Its a stunning improvement - however it does leave me pondering where the line can be drawn between enhancing antique metal and going too far.

Im under the impression its not recommended to remove the patina of an antique weapon.

Clearly you know what you are doing here.

Always antique weapons are purchased in a less than perfect state.

Where does one draw the line?


Horsa

In regards to "enhancing antique metal", IMHO tarnish is not the same as patina. Precious metals such as silver and gold (suassa) are meant to shine. Even when i watch the Antique Roadshow they suggest that silver items are meant to be kept in polish. I think José has done a crackerjack job bringing this old weapon up to snuff.
However, were i personally draw the line is at adding on pieces that we assume might have once been there, especially when we are unsure. Firstly we need to ask ourselves if we are really capable of doing the job so that it doesn't look like modern add-on work. Will the materials and craftsmanship perfectly match? I have rarely seen modified antique weapons done by anybody were their modern modifications aren't immediately obvious as such. Secondly there is the history of the piece which i feel should be preserved at all costs. Many kris have just a single baka-baka, perhaps more than have two. I am not clear whether this is simply a matter of taste or style or what. Now IF this is actually the same weapon as the one pictured with Datu Piang then it did indeed seem to have had two baka-baka at one time. But we have no evidence of how or why one of those baka-baka were removed. Was it lost, broken or removed by choice of style? How do we in the modern age then decide if it belongs there or not? IMHO José, the kris looks fine as it is. If it had NO baka-baka at all i could see at least some reason to add one in order to secure the hilt properly, but given the current condition of piece i just wouldn't mess with the history of it. If it truly is Datu Piang's keris that history should be preserved, not enhanced. :shrug: :)

I will consider these arguments.

ok, a little update:

in a recent conversation i have with Amai Mingka's (Datu Piang) granddaughter, i mentioned this kris. according to the story that was passed on to her by her grandma, Datu Piang has a personal panday in Dulawan (incidentally, that town is now known as Datu Piang). whenever he has a particular weapon made, whether it be kris, spears, etc., he would commission this panday to make multiple copies, and he would give these pieces to foreign dignitaries who visited him and had given him gifts. now, this would make sense why this piece and the one on the historical picture is so similar...
in a way, this change the common perception in which each individual kris was made to one specific person.
sooo, there's a strong possibility that your piece might be "as is", batara. a similar handle was made, an extra blade lying around, personal panday of Datu Piang put it together, then BAM! instant replica of his favorite sword...

Thanks so much Spunger. This sheds all kinds of light on this piece. Explains why this is identical and yet not identical to the one in the picture. So there is an even higher possibility that this belonged to Datu Piang, even though it is not the one in the picture.

By the way, I have decided not to put the straps up the hilt - would have modify or replace the twisted silver wire. I am not willing to do that nor do anything in which certainty is not assured.

Now for the baka-baka, that is a different matter. Still thinking on that.

Just thought I would place these pictures in black and white to better compare them without color distraction. There are enough tiny differences to my eye to show that these are not the exact same in the hilts (excluding the ring question).

Also, I think it interesting that although Datu Piang may have had several of theses made, he approved of this specific form and design and liked it enough to have it copied for his use.

just a theory, but perhaps the kris pictured with him would be his personal favorite. copies were made, and were given to some real important dignitaries...

That's what I'm thinking........

I have decided not to bother to take the time (which I don't have) to make a new scabbard. Instead I wanted to and decided to attempt to stabilize and replace missing parts of the scabbard.

The scabbard was splintering into pieces, so I stabilized it from the inside, made a replacement belt stop that was originally in the hole towards the top in this style of scabbard. I also had to take off the original stain (yes it was stained brown I found out), smoothed out some of the bumps, and especially took off the large drips of white paint that later dropped onto it sometime in the past. At the same time I cleaned the nickel-silver bands.

I dare not go any further because I am afraid of doing harm, and I am also limited due to the thinness of the edges of the scabbard and the softness of the wood. Therefore some of the edges of the scabbard that are jagged and open (damaged in the past sometime which also somewhat damaged the blade in those areas).

Posted are before and after pictures.

Hello Jose,

very good work to stabilize the original scabbard, it look much better now!

Regards,

Detlef