A case of the form outlasting the function .

The sort of toli2 I've handled had what I can only describe as a figure eight loop, a small loop at the top, then a much larger loop that extended down the gandar, both in cord that had been wound with twine, and bound to the gandar at the waist of the figure eight. The whole thing was just a circle of bound cord that was held in at a waist and bound to the gandar. Pretty simple really, functional and no ornamentation.

If the setagen was run through the lower loop the scabbard would have been very firmly anchored to the body.

Here is a picture of the loop fixed at the keris hilt base I ment. At the moment I see no other explanation for it as to be in some way connected with Toli2. In this case it wouldn't allow the blade to be drawn out of the sheath.

Hello Alan,
What do you mean by setagen?
Any input from our Bugis members regarding the practical use of the passio sumange? It is still unclear to me. :)
Regards

The sash that you wear around your waist. A sarung is just held at your waist by rolling it over, you kink it a bit on one end maybe, but it still comes loose and if there's not something holding it at your waist it continually comes loose.

It can be held by a heavy leather belt, which seems to be what blokes from Madura and some manual labourers in Jawa use---often has pockets in it to hold money or tobacco --- it can be held by a cloth belt --- sabuk--- or it can be held by a setagen, which is particularly so for formal wear.

If you wind a setagen right it acts a bit like a corset and supports your back, which is pretty handy for court wear where the abdi dalem spend hours sitting on the floor cross legged. Not easy.

The setagen is held in place by a sabuk, the cloth belt, for formal wear, and sometimes for non-formal wear.

Anyway, the setagen is wound around the waist and in Jawa the keris is slipped down between specific folds of the setagen at the back, when it becomes a wangkingan, but if one of the folds of the setagen was passed through the toli2 before the winding around the waist was complete, that single passing of the setagen through the toli2 would anchor the wrongko so it could not come free until you took the setagen off.

You could maybe do the same or similar with a belt, particularly a cloth belt.

Women wear a setagen too, and they often wear it wound very tight from the top of the hips to the bottom of the ribs, this helps them a lot to carry those incredible weights they can carry on their heads.

Years ago I saw a woman in Bali carry a board loaded with bricks that were stacked on it by two other women. That board was nearly 3 feet square and the bricks were piled maybe 6 or 8 high. I didn't count them, but my memory tells me there were a lot of them. She carried those bricks from a truck, across rough ground to a building job, maybe 200 yards. In rural Bali and Jawa its mostly women who do the heavy work, not men.

Our society could learn a lot from traditional Balinese society.

:D :D Agree!

Thank you Alan.

Dear friends,
since we have mixed opinions on this matter , I have referred my earlier posting of this keris to a Malay keris Silver expert in Kelantan, Malaysia. After viewing a closer image of the silver work, he said:' filigree silver work seems to made in the very early 1900s. Tq. :)

Well, "experts" say the funniest things sometimes, don't they. I will continue to believe that the first keris sheath that started this thread is a rather contemporary piece. Your mileage may differ... ;) :D

I will agree that as one who works with metals, filigree is much more difficult than the chasing work.

"Sorry David, even the Foreign Expert Alan Maisey made a wrong judgement in one of those keris threads (hope you remember) "regarding .. whether the sheath really belongs to the blade" and one member of this forum Alam Shah stood by his opinion using 'LOGIC'...if you could remember.

I always agree with Alan, you cannot authenticate an item with 100 percent result without it seeing physically. I learned from his professional statement.TQ :)

Views differ..and Learning will never end !

Opinions; well, everyone has one . ;) :D

My Keris, firstly, I am not an expert.

Most especially I am not an expert on all types of keris from everywhere.

I do have a little bit of knowledge in respect of some very limited matters associated with Javanese, Madurese and Balinese keris.

I have spent a very long time in the study of the culture, society and history associated with the keris prior to its spread into areas of SE Asia other than its original cultural location.

But I am certainly no expert.

One thing I am not able to do is to give any guarantee at all in respect of any opinion I may give based upon what I can see in a photograph. I do recognise this inadequacy, and I freely admit that I do not have the psychic abilities of some other people which permits them to give solid opinions based upon photographs.

Regarding the wrong judgement which I made, and which you quote in your recent post, I would be very obliged if could refresh my memory by directing me to that thread. Thanks.

So your expert made his assessment based solely on a photograph and yet you accept that opinion 100%? Interesting. :)
Here is a link to the original auction BTW, with more photos. This link won't stay live for ever, but i don't have the energy to copy all the images to this forum for future reference.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Silv...-/230974832804

And frankly, no, i don't quite remember this so you would indeed need to refresh my memory, though i don't quite see how it is relevant to this thread or why you feel the need to refer to Alan as "the Foreign Expert". :shrug: