Hi
I am a little confused! Can someone explained the difference between, Choora, Karud or Pesh Kabz?
I have a friend who comes from Kabul, he simply called all daggers Pesh kabz, and all knives Kard!
even if my looking up in books, I always see other words! I have been collecting for 20 years, everything has a blade and always thought I knew the difference, descriptions of Hermann Historica, knives and daggers, 4 vols.
I'm confused!
I ask some help!! smile

1. Choora? the sheat jes, the Dagger no, Pesh kabz, The blade spine is not straight, the tip is pulled upward.
2. Pesh Kabz
3. Karud
4. Choora
5.picture its Hermann Historika Dolche und Messer aus dem Persischen Kulturraum
6.and the last two are karela south India.

It is my understanding that all 3 terms: Choora, Karud/Kard, and Pesh kabz are used interchangebly and varry based on location and the primary language spoken there.

On a separate note, I did not know that Kerala knives were carried in pairs such as in the example above

Are we dealing with specific patterns of distinct weapons or just ethnic variations of the,- basically,- the same Pesh Kabz?

Hint: Karud and choora have identical blades but different handles. Karud comes mainly from Central Asia, India and some from Afghanistan. Choora, however, is pinpointed to the Mahsud tribe of the Khyber Pass.

I tried to..
 

These are my two, of different eras. No one commented.

Some more (must have missed this thread first time around)

Roy

Some notes from Artzi

How do we date chooras?
Are there any examples firmly attributable to the 19th century or even earlier?

Good Question Ariel.

Here is a nice old Wootz bladed Choora Ariel, how would you place this date wise?

Gavin

Gavin, I know full well that they were not signed or dated by and large. Otherwise I wouldn't have asked. But there are other ways, written sources, for example. And I do believe that experienced dealers do have a sense of age: materials, patination etc.
I have a feeling that a wootz blade or an ivory handle would be unlikely to be found on a choora made in, say, 1940:-)

You must have a copy of Egerton: Plate XIV, number 624.Is it a choora or not?
Egerton collected his samples during his short stay in India in the 1850s, if I remember.And he even specifically mentions a dagger called Ch'hurra , made in Khorasan, Kabul and Jellalabad: the last two located in the vicinity of the Khyber Pass and the first likely referring to the wootz examples, like yours.

Unless there is an iron-clad provenance, I would tentatively place your choora in the 19th century.

What do you think?

The more I look
 

Hi Ariel,

It took me a while to spot the knife and sheath you note...madly thumbing through both the original and the reprint looking for a Choora hilt, I couldn't see it for looking.

The dagger offers little in detail but I'd agree, its a Choora. The sheath shows designs I'd place as Afghanistan, which is a help.

If I was shown this Choora I've shown, I'd say 19th century and to be honest, when I first saw it, I jumped at it thinking it was, not knowing its true qualities and age until I had it in hand.

This Choora is Dated 1903 (Thanks Lofty). It is signed to the grip strap and named too. (I now have a Russian silver hilted Shashka in the same native dress that this Choora is found in too, spoils of war no doubt.)

I am so glad you mention the wootz factor too. To me, this Choora, having a super fine wootz blade along with this date means two things, wootz was still alive and well in these hidden parts of the world through which there was still great trade in the day and many hidden secrets (Still today) or it is a rehilt of an old blade, which is possible but I am not convinced it is a rehilt of an old blade...I do not have notes at hand but there was written accounts of Gypsies in Central Asia during this later time who were master forgers...I might have mentioned the passage here in the past....20th century wootz manufacture leaves a lot of thoughts to ponder since it was considered a lost art.

So I am equally lost with an accurate date unless it has a pedigree or provenance.

Gavin :shrug: :shrug:

Hi Gavin,
Thanks for the speedy answer. I am glad you agree with me on the Egerton's example:it is a choora, plain and simple. Thus, we can be absolutely certain that they existed even in the middle of the 19th century.

As I said, with the exact dating there is no doubt that yours is the beginning of the 20th.

I am fascinated by the mention of Gypsies making wootz in the 20th. If true, the "re-discoverer of bulat" general Anosov should have just gone to Central Asia instead of adding crushed diamonds to his crucibles:-). If you find the actual source of this info, and if it is believable, that would be a major revelation to the Wootz lovers all over the world. Please try to find it and publish it. And,perhaps, you might be kind enough to post it here: I am sure many, many Forumites willthank you!!!

And, BTW, can anyone show us examples of the unquestionably Central Asian -made wootz blades?

They have used Persian wootz blades and just dressed them according to the local fashion. Thus, it wood be interesting to see what those Bukharan or Afghani blade smiths were capable of. Then we hopefully can compare the quality of Choora blades to the standards, Persian or local.

Egerton specifically mentioned Khorasan as one of production sites, thus Gavin's example might be a remounted one.

Central Asian Wootz
 

Here are some Ariel, a perfectly preserved pair of Wootz Bukharan pichoq, turquoise encrusted silver hilts with garnet, silver and Niello bolsters sitting in their original cloth suspension with silver dressed and gilded sheaths attached.

I understand this type of item to be political gifts and also circa 1900, give or take a couple of decades.

With regards to the Choora I presented, the chiselled spine designs appear very true to the region as does the polished sections of the blade being a NW Indian thing to my knowledge. Of course the polished panels could be added anytime by someone with the knowledge to do so.

Gavin

Here's my example, more of a Khyber Knife being 58cm long in total, but described as a Choora by Ian B at the Armouries. Bought a few years ago, before the recent involvement and so most likely dating to an earlier Imperial campaign. 19thC?

Certainly a Khyber knife David, it doesn't follow the form of the Choora despite some aspects having a shared similarity.

Gavin

Thanks Gavin,
Good beginning of a database. The main problem is that it is likely to be Bukhara and Afghanistan.


Capt. Masalski saw manufacture of Central-Asian wootz in the 1850s if my memory is correct.


Any documented evidence of its production in Afganistan proper, especially around the Khyber Pass? Kabul or Jellalabad, as per Egerton?

DavidR:
Can you show magnified pic? I can' t see wootz pattern.

ariel, I do not think this is wootz, more likely a folded steel.

I am of the same opinion!
Kurt

Ah so...
:-)

Another
 

Here is a snap of a high end Khyber with a wootz blade and fittings.

Gavin

Here is my Choora: handle is horn with multiple small nails, all decorative parts are brass. The interesting thing is the thin line of turquoises below the bolster, on both sides.
The scabbard is made of ass hide ( not THAT ass! The one that is a donkey, and has long ears!:-))

When and where would you put it?

"When and where would you put it?"

Between the ribs; preferably on a dark night ?? :D






couldn't resist

I fully expected it :-)

Well, after a long interruption, I want to show 2 more chooras.
The is a long friendly argument between myself and another member about the age of a choora as a pattern.
In his opinion choora appeared only in the 20 th century as a modification of Karud.

Here are two chooras bought originally at an auction in Scotland. Their scabbards are in a sorry shape, but both carry paper labels dated 1854 and 1840. The daggers and their scabbards fit each other perfectly: no doubt original.Since the daggers themselves are not dated, as usual for the Afghani stuff, I did the next best thing: contacted Dr. Cathleen Baker from the Department of Restoration and Preservation of the University of Michigan Library. She is a world-renown expert on all things printed: paper, ink, techniques, bindings etc, former President and member of the Board of Directors of professional societies in her field, and the author of books and articles on the history of printing materials and techniques.
She examined the chooras ( magnifying equipment, UV and infrared lights, some chemical analysis), and in her professional opinion the physical condition of the labels and their materials ( papers, inks) are compatible with the mid-19th century or earlier, and incompatible with 20th century.

Together with the dates, this seems to clinch the issue: chooras existed in the pattern known till today even in the middle of the 19th century.

Gentlemen, I give you 2 oldest dated chooras known to man and beast :-)

And of the beasts: please look at the pics of the handle of the bigger choora: rhino?

Dear Ariel.

No one is arguing that the very old papers. But no one can say when the papers were glued (50 years ago or 100 years ago). And most importantly, why ...

In addition, you're kind of writing in Russian forum that besides numbers (not necessarily the date) on pieces of paper are many other words that you no one could translate into English;)

So do not be in such a hurry, saying that these chooras 19th century.

Just horn (no rhino horn). This is a similar pattern in the Kurdish dagger.

Take a picture please, so that could be seen a cross-section fibers horns.

Mahratt, you have your opinion about dating chooras, I have mine, and we have discussed it many times.


Why wouldn't we put our differences aside and let the Forumites decide for themselves whether they view expert opinion sufficiently convincing. OK?

As to the origin of the handle, I am making arrangements to take it to our Museum of Natural History and have the real experts look at it.

Meanwhile, the Forumites are free to express their opinions.

You have expressed your opinion, and I expressed my opinion. We both participants of the forum;) What are the arguments? Only opinions.

And why do you need an expert to determine the horn? Suffice it to another photo of a certain angle.

Why wouldn't we both remain quiet and let the Forumites speak?

Just my 2 cents...
Clearly these papers have been attached to these sheaths for a very long time. If this was an attempt to deceive about the age of these sheaths it would be a very good forgery indeed. Better, sharper photographs would beg helpful though, Ariel.
But if we do assume that the papers were in place for a very long time i don't see that someone even 50 years ago would bother to try to deceive anyone with dates just 100 years previous. What would be the point? Ariel took the time and effort to have these papers scientifically analyzed. I see no reason, therefore, to doubt the dating of these sheaths give the age of the paper. Even if the numbers themselves do not represent dates, the paper and ink has been proven to be 19th century, so i find little to doubt with this finding.
I also don't see why expert examination to determine whether or not the handle is rhino is a bad thing. Photographs can be deceptive, and if you are not too offended by this professional photographer's opinion Ariel, your photographs are just not clear enough to really determine anything for sure. ;) So personally i would welcome your expert's testimony from the Museum of Natural History. :)
Why would anyone not welcome such evidence?

I freely admit my poor photographic abilities. No offence taken. Do I blush? Yes.... :-(((
Photographing a different view of the pommel, as suggested, is impossible: it is so polished by the years of hand contact that nothing can be discerned. Personal handling by a professional is the only way.

David, no one disputes that the paper is very old and that the paper glued for a long time (50 years is a long time, too). There is no question about the fact that it is a fake. But! 1) Ariel no has translated all the text and stopped at the numbers, which he considers dates. It is not quite correct. Maybe it's a record of the number of sheep :) 2) No one person does not determine exactly when the old paper was glued (50 years ago, 100 years ago or 150 years ago). And in Afghanistan, a very old paper used for household needs 40-50 more years ago. 3) It is known that the scabbard choor often papered with paper, so they came to the sword belt tight (see photo).

And another. Let's look a hypothetical situation. I have an old edition of the newspaper in 1927. And I have a knife that did in 1970. If I glue a piece of old newspaper on the knife that did in 1970, this knife will be stabbed in 1927? )

And on account of rhino horn - is online now enough people who can simply determine what kind of horn in question, if the photos will be presented in a certain foreshortening.

Very strange ... The longitudinal fibers are seen well, although exactly there more hand contact. Their cross, where hand contact less-section is polished so that nothing is visible?

In the Horn of rhinoceros we always clearly visible longitudinal section of a special "drawing".

I think mahratt is correct to a point. You have not translated what else it says so have no context that this is a date. It could easily mean that it was the 1854 piece they made, maybe it was remembering his grandfather's death. It seems strange that it in western characters and dating while the rest is not. If it says this was made under the ruler whomever, or if it was collected by lord so and so at that date you would have a lot stronger case. As to the paper being added the afghans are notorious for mixing old and new items together. The piece might be that old but Ariel you are far from proving it. I think this debate is one of the more interesting ones I have read.

Mahratt,
Why are you so nervous?
On what grounds do you call these labels a fake?

You might be right, and the handle may not be a rhino one. This is exactly why I am making arrangements to show it to an expert. But this is an aside and bears no influence on the main question.

The important thing is the age.

David has already agreed with the idea of the "19th century". Please stop adding more and more unrelated verbiage and images and let other Forumites express their opinions.

Thanks.

Ward, thank you.
These labels were examined by a person fluent in both Urdu and Pashto.
This is Pashto. However, he was unable to make sense of any other textual snippets with the exception of a very tentative "Mohammed" on the better preserved one. Also, these labels were examined by the Curator of the Islamic Manuscripts collection in the Dept. of Restoration. She pointed out to some numbers in the right upper corners of both labels. According to her, they represent typical archival entries ( accounting entries, collection entries, documents rosters etc, etc.) on old Indian/Afghani documents , including 19th century.

Dr. Baker examined not only the composition of papers and inks, but also assessed the potential age of paper, leather and wood. This is something she was trained to do, deals regularly with, presented multiple lectures all over the world and published papers about. In a way, this is identical to how the conservators and restorers examine and assess book bindings.

As a professional book/binding restorer, she dated the paper/wood/leather complexes as compatible with mid 19th century or earlier and definitely older than 20th century. She maintained this conclusion even without taking the numbers 1854 and 1840 into account. Simply by the state of the materials. And she had the advantage of actually handling these objects and doing her traditional tests on them.

Should we accept the testimony of an expert witness or dismiss it?

The labels had to be attached to the scabbards after the manufacture of these chooras and aged in parallel with them from there on. The estimates of their age as mid-19th century, therefore, give the absolutely latest date of their manufacture, and this is the reason why they may be even older.

You are correct: this is the most unexpected and fascinating discussion we have had in a very long time. We are dealing here with dating an old weapon using a completely novel and hitherto never used approach. Fifty years ago the idea of using DNA samples as a method of finding an accused guilty or innocent would have been viewed as totally crazy:-)

That is a much more reasoned assessment. I would conclude that 19th century is very reasonable. I have come across a handful of these over the years with the paper attached and various writing on them.

Thanks, Ward.

Ariel, my friend, and who of us nervous? I just express my assumption. Please quote, where I said that your "labels" - a fake? :)

I am delighted that David has agreed with you. That is his right. And my right to express my opinion on your version of the "19th century". The pictures are just pertain to the topic of discussion. It is strange that you do not want to see. And let's not plugging each other's mouth. You express your opinion in the forum of items, and I express my opinion.