Hello Alan,

the first guess it is in my opinion.

Agree! :)

Indeed !
Someone is hiding their light under a bushel . ;) :)

Detlef, is that painted kendit that I see ?

Sorry Detlef, its not two guesses, I am referring to two separate things which can exist either separately, or together.

The longer wrongko mouth because of a need to allow the blade to enter; the sunken gonjo because of age.

Yes Rick, I think that it is a painted kendit.

Thanks guys for the compliments, and that you're willing to try to get me in the right direction!

I've tried to change it a little bit, is this a little bit more acceptable?

regards,
Ben

Hello Alan,

I only want to confirm that it is in this case the sunken gonjo because of age.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Ben,

good and acceptable! But I personal wouldn't let stick out the blade so much from the wrongko.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

I personally prefer it as it rises a little bit above the sheath, now its about 2mm above, with the old sheath it was 3/4mm.
Is your preference to sink it all the way in, or is the 2 mm just to high?

regards,
Ben

Gentlemen, lease take a look on this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=gonjo+sitting, specially post #15.

Ben, it is your decision of course, yet it seems to be absolutely sure that gonjo should be visible on Balinese keris, and 2mm could be fine.

Thanks Gustav,

That makes the choice easy, then i for sure leave him as it is.

regards,
Ben

You are absolutely right Gustav, look for example my keris in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13650

I reffering about my personal taste. :)

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

I have been looking at the link you placed, but that is a real eye cacher :eek:
Especially the blade after the warangan, very, very nice!

regards,
Ben

As advised in my post #35, the old style of blade fit was to sit the gonjo proud of the atasan; the more usual fit is to sit the gonjo level with the atasan.

My own observations tend to indicate that in the olden times keris of the aristocracy were mounted in what has been identified as the old way, whilst the keris of commoners were mounted with the gonjo level with the top of the atasan.

I have in my possession a keris that was once the property of the Raja of Badung. This keris was probably mounted to this wrongko in the second half of the 19th century. At its edge, the center of the gonjo sits 4mm above the top of the gonjo.

Kinatah?

Awesome work by the way :)

Thanks,

J.

I am trying to make a new hilt, i don't know what the name of this type is,
but i think if you see the picture you no what i mean :)
Later on i put some rope around it, but for now i hope you can give me advice, cause i can't make out of he's to big or not.

regards,
Ben

Ben, what you have at the moment is similar to a cenangan hilt, however, the two little raised sections internal to the pommel and the cap section at the lower end don't really have a place in cenangan patterns that I have seen.

If you wrap this with twine, it will become a loncengan

Here is a pic of a loncengan, probably more usual in Lombok than in Bali.

Proportion is within acceptable parameters, but it is possible that a little shorter might be better, however, it is also possible that the photo is lying to me.

The one in the picture(loncengan) is the same as i was trying to make, the raised sections where there to stop the rope/twine?
I couldn't decide if it was right hight, and if you doubt that it's a little to big, it probably is, i think it's about 12 cm.
But now i know that is more common in Lombok i must decide if this is the right hilt for this keris, it's a pity i like the shape.
Thanks again Mr Maisey!

regards,
Ben

Harley, with the size of a hilt, its a matter of proportion, not measurable height --- well, at least with Bali keris it is, because with Bali keris the size of the wrongko can vary quite a lot, with Jawa keris the sizes and consequently the proportions are very much more disciplined.

I can't be certain if the hilt is a whisker too long or not, because a very slight difference in the angle of the photo can make a difference in the perceived proportion. I wouldn't alter the proportion, were I you, its within acceptable parameters.

Do you have any images of a cenangan that you can copy? What you have produced is already very close.

Very very nice . What kind of wood (is root?) :eek:

I have been searching for it, and found 4 pic' s here on the forum, but the ones that i see here have a lot of beams over the entire hilt, or is that a sort of free style?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7035

Hello Marco,

thank you. :) I still think that it is gembal jati (teak burl wood).

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Harley,

I think that the both hilts from this thread are recent.

Regards,

Detlef

Thanks Detlef,

Do you know where i can find a picture of a cenangan?

regards,
Ben

I will look for, let me time until tomorrow. But maybe someone more fast as I am?
;) :shrug:

Regards,

Detlef

The cenangan form is scarce. I suspect it is a pretty recent form, and a development and simplification of the gerantim form.

The two cenangan in Harley's link are recent, and the only photos I could find of cenangan hilts are also over-blown recent ones.

Essentially, the cenangan is the gerantim without the sprout on top.

Pictured is a gerantim --- with sprout--- and the same hilt with the sprout painted out, which makes it a cenangan.

Ben, this would be an easy hilt for you to use as a model:- reduce the raised parts that I commented on previously, and give them a bit of a curve, and you've just about done the job. The checkering is not necessary, this is the only Bali hilt I've seen that had checkering.


Re the wood:- yes, it is jati gembol.

I am glad I'm not the only one that couldn't find it :D
Yes the gerantim is close to what i have now, and the rest is easy to adjust.
But now I know what it looks like, i have found this picture, is that the cenangan?

Yes, but modern and not particularly good quality.

It wouldn't be my choice either, but isn't the gerantim also more common on Lombok?
If not i am going for the gerantim.

Thanks Mr Maisey.

No, gerantim was not more common on Lombok. In past times it was a hilt normally used by the nobility of Bali, most especially in the form which was wrapped with woven gold.

Ben, you cannot convert your present almost cenangan into a gerantim, because then the proportions will definitely be wrong. If you want to do gerantim you'll need to start again and take account of the sprout on top, however, a gerantim out of plain wood seems to me to just a little unfitting.

You could bind what you have with twine and have a loncengan, but although these are not out of place on Bali, they were more common on Lombok.

Or you can slightly modify what you have a finish up with a pretty acceptable cenangan.

I am sorry Mr Maisey, but i meant the gerantim that you adjusted, without the sprout, and there was my mistake, then is was a cenangan :o
Maybe i start again with a new one, and make the top, middle, en bottom apart,
that way i always can change the proportions, and i think it's nicer with a difference in grain.
But we'll see.

regards,
Ben

Thanks Ben. Understood.

Some more specimens of cenangan style hilts having some age.
Best regards

Jean, why do you believe these specimens have some age? :shrug:

Thanks Jean,

They are much better looking then the ones i found.
In the last 2 pictures you can see swastika's in the engraving!

regards,
Ben

Here two more, again taken from the book "Keris Bali Bersejarah".

Hehe, just because I bought them more than 15 years ago and they were in the same condition as today (used)... :) Of course I don't mean that they are old, but at least 20 to 30 years.
Regards

You are right about the engraved swastika Hindu motif which is common in Bali/ Lombok. This polychrome wooden hilt is part of an old family kris from Lombok.
The second hilt made from bone has a turtle skin cover, and the first one is made from bone and black horn.
Best regards
Jean

Thank you Detlef,

The one on the right is very nice!


Jean,

It was kind a strange to see that, but now i get it, thanks for the explanation!

regards,
Ben

Fair enough Jean, but that would make them fairly contemporary in my book.