Is that a picture of a double edged broadsword on the pommel of a saber? :eek:
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broadsword
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Yes, it looks like a broadsword. But I think it should represent the sword of the prophet. Best Kurt |
The sharply angled hilt on this silver mounted sabre reminds me very much of certain Palestinian or Sinai Bedouin sabres, most of which I have seen are with crudely fashioned wood hilts and seem almost 'shashka' like. The heavy sabre trade blade seems like its been around a while, and interesting to see these most attractive mounts incorporating the Moroccan sa'if hilt. As such a hybrid it would be hard to accurately place in these more modern mounts, but definitely has some history, particularly the blade.
Interestingly the blockish and angled pommel cap, while of course aligned somewhat with the more refined design on most Persian shamshirs, has distinct affinity to certain early (c.1790s) British cavalry sabres. These in turn derived from a number of European 'hussar' sabres in use for considerable time before. By propensity of style this sabre might be considered a Maghrebi anomaly, however it seems more likely from Arabian regions congruent to or with perhaps intertribal contact with these Bedouin groups in the areas mentioned. Regarding the intriguing broadsword on the pommel cap, the Saudi Arabian emblem with Dhul'fiqar (I hope I spelled that correctly) does represent the Sword of the Prophet with bifurcated point as typically seen. However the Broadsword (double edged) seen here does show a distinct ridge or fuller in the blade center, bisecting the blade. As I have been led to understand, the translation of Dhul' fiqar is literally 'possessor of spines' (believed to be of course fullering) and perhaps here simply represents the 'cloven' or in two concept. In any case the mounts are of the type seen on the Sacred Swords in Istanbul, and very well may be intended to represent the Sword of the Prophet. |
Nein, nein, nein, Kurt, not one of the Prophet saber for a lot of reasons
see there http://le-carrefour-de-lislam.com/At...eliquiae_2.htm Yes Jim, it looks like a telescoping of an arabian Middle Eastern saïf and a Moroccan Nimcha guard. A blade of broad saber. Really very curious. Louis-Pierre |
Nice sword. The sword inscription is indeed Dhul'fiqaar. The inscription even says the frequent line "la fata ela Ali, wa la saif ela dhul'fiqaar"
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Nimcha.
Salaams, I cannot add much to the already full and excellent discussion ...except...Nim means half in Baluchi and they take that from the Persian as noted in a previous detailed thread. It is not an Arabic word but again that is already discussed... so ...
This is a Zanzibari Nimcha. Not the cloisonned Algerian version nor the classic Magreb style. As Jim was saying in this and other related Nimcha threads these swords started life in Italian or Venetian roots. There are other variants including the Saudi item and cheaper hilted Yemeni variants but the one which makes ones eyes sparkle is the Omani or Zanzibari version ... When people say Omani Nimcha what they actually mean is Zanzibari (as already noted Oman owned it for a considerable period and it even became for a time the Omani capital !) Apart from the obvious, there are two clues to origin; 1. The Hilt of Ivory. 2. The decorative gold Hilt pattern style. Zanzibari traders favoured the Ivory hilt on their Nimchas...Being a trading hub for all things African, Zanzibar was well placed for the Ivory trade. The decorative gold style is Indo/ Persian "Miri Bota" leaf pattern. Not likely to be done on a Nimcha other than a Zanzibari Nimcha. More than likely craftsmen from India worked in Zanzibar and the decoration was either done there or in India from which much trade exchanged with the Zanzibaris. I have to add that the Nimcha puzzle is or has been one of the most difficult to crack open... and thanks to the Forum it is now somewhat clearer. :shrug: Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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This does not seem correct to me. Certainly the blade on these is the same as we've seen on some Mooroccan genui (basically a seeminly European style multigrooved single edged dagger blade), however, the I/H shaped handles much more closely resemble those of jambiya (per se). This seems to argue for middle eastern, rather than north African. Also, I think it is important that in one sense or another, and certainly to Europeans, all of these "nimcha" users were/are Arabs; These are swords of a mercantile and military elite, which has often been Arab even in non-Arab afrasian countries, and for instance, Zanzibar, Oman, and Yemen are all historically Arab places. It is important to remember that while we modernly mistake Saudi Arabia for Arabia, Saudi Arabia is a 20th century invention, and not a nation-state, but a petty kingdom (these are technical terms; a nation-state is a polity composed of a [n entire] nation, while a petty state is one composed of only a part of one. The other major division in this regard being multi-national states, or empires.) |
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I would actually argue that the sboula hilt is much closer to a baselard than to a jambiya. As far as the origin of the weapon, the picture linked below of a soldier with a Moroccan musket seems to support a Maghrebi origin, and the Zanzibar attribution seems to be a mistake that has been perpetuated with little supporting evidence. Regards, Teodor http://vikingsword.com/vb/attachment...id=21170&stc=1 |
Thank you so much Teodor for the corroboration. My point in bringing up these other weapons is that the influence of these European weapons from trade networks, primarily North Italian into Tunis and other North African points brought many of these into the cultural sphere. It has been suggested to me in discussion of the important reference by C.Buttin, that the cinquedea actually influenced the hilt of the koummya, and we know that the 'janwi' comes with Genoan influence. Buttin was also support for my contention in the Zanzibar misidentification.
All the best, Jim |
Please do argue that it's more like a baselard, because I don't see how? Certainly it's a tempting comparison, with the (as I noted) basically European dagger blade these have, but
the soldered-on (rather than soldered then assembled onto the substrate) metal that often nearly fully wraps these grips is not usual on Swiss weapons AFAIK, whereas it is rather common on jambiy and shabrias (a similar type of work is common on the central ferule of some koumiyas, but almost always with additional filigree or other applied decoration not common to my experience of the short swords in question). Furthermore, the overall shape of the grip is seen on jambiya per se (htypically the pommel is less broad), and also on other African swords and daggers (lately I've seen a couple where the tips of the upper guard/pommel were wrapped in spiralled wire on this forum; do you remember them? They had straight DE blades) All things are possible, but these hilts do not resemble any other Mooroccan work I'm familiar with, while they do resemble Middle Eastern Arab work. The photo is interesting. Thanks. |
Silhanese.
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Salaams LOUIS-PIERRE, Your reference to Sinhalese Kastane is interesting since it is generally accepted that the "influence" came the other way from Italy and Venice via the Red sea and possibly Zanzibar to Sri Lanka... and that the arabs settled in many coastal regions in Sri Lanka making a plausible sword link up to what is now an Iconic emblem . It does however look very Oriental and I wonder if the influence could have been from the Chinese... or is this design a Sinhalese thoroughbred.... or a crossbreed? :shrug: Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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Just received this one. Zanzibari......or Arabian made in Zanzibar?
Stu |
Nimcha.
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Salaams...Looks like a Magrebi Nimcha. Ibrahiim. |
Nice one Stu, congrats. Looks Zanzibari imo.
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Hadramaut.
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Salaams Jim, The Hadramaut is a place I need to go and see... regret however that it is probably 50 years too late. As a compensation I have just read a dusty old mid sixtys copy of Hammond Innes "Harvest of Journeys" where in the first part he is winging around that area which was in part a British Protectorate and in one small town he describes it as totally Javanese!! (at that point the bells are ringing !! ) The (once but in decline) rich Yemeni landlords of Java..In the Hadramaut ! I am still stunned by the revelation. Regards Ibrahiim. |
Salam Ibrahim,
I do agree with you that Europe is one track among others. It would be appropriate to leave the Eastern door wide open. The Arabs were great traders and great travelers. No doubt that from their settlements in India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, ... they brought innovations in all areas, including arms. I own exactly the same Nimcha shown by kahnjar1. It is an arab nimcha made in Zanzibar, for Yemen i believe. There are some keys to better recognize the different saïf and nimcha. 1 - the button that blocks the tang: see image (left: zanzibari - right: maghrebi - often a coin) 2 - the profile: see image - from left Saïf - Zanzibari - Maghrebi 3 - the Guard: first image: D Zanzibari guard - Second image: straight guard Maghrebi 3 - the protection against the shots sliding over the flat of the blade image 1: Maghrebi protection (pitones) - image 2: Zanzibari protection. With my kind regards Louis-Pierre |
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here are the images
LPCA |
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Stu |
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If the idea of the hilt shape is sourced from other cultures or not, I guess we in the 21st Centuiry will never know for sure. Many long hours and thousands of words mean nothing without CONCLUSIVE proof, and I suspect that hundreds of years on, we will never be absolutely sure. Sufficient to say, we can only go on information we currently have to hand. Regards Stu |
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Stu |
Hello Stu,
Yes, you're right. It is very difficult today to have a final decision on the origins of Moroccan or Arab Zanzibari Nimcha. That is why this subject is open and no door can not be truly closed. Take the case of this Nimcha from Oriental Arms. I trust Adni of Aïfa when he described it as Zanzibari. Yet its profile and its guard are those of a Moroccan nimcha while its protection is typical of a Zanzibari nimcha . I got in Algiers in 1962 (independence of Algeria) in stocks of the French Army a number of weapons that were taken of war in 1830. Among them, a Moroccan nimcha used by defenders of Alger. This shows that different types of weapons were circulating well throughout the Maghreb. Now, armed Algerian troops ensured the protection of convoys of traveling pilgrims each year to Mecca. Possible that the Moroccan nimcha of an Algerian soldier has inspired a Yemeni pilgrim who then placed an order in Zanzibar. Why not? This is how travel perhaps influences. Regards Louis-Pierre |
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Stu |
Yemeni Nimcha.
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Salaams Stu ~ Very good point ! The D Guard . Not Magreb,, agreed . Not Zanzibar either . Its a Yemeni Nimcha. The list of countries that have Nimcha specific styles grows longer. Magreb, Algeria, Saudia, Zanzibar, Sri Lanka, and the one which I forgot about ...The Yemeni Nimcha. Louis Pierre... kind regards and thank you for the pictures and comparisons and I agree the door to the east remains wide open in this regard. Kurt ... Salaams and your pictures of the Zanzibar perfect style at #1 and # 23 are superb. Regards Ibrahim al Balooshi. |
The Yemeni Nimcha.
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Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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I am attaching a picture of a (rather ugly) hilt, which I believe is Yemeni in origin. The blade is Ethiopian, and we know that a lot of Ethiopian swords were imported in Yemen, because of their rhino hilts. The hilts were reworked to be used on jambiyas, while the blades were rehilted, sometimes in a very crude manner. I acquired the sword from an Egyptian gentleman residing in Saudi Arabia, but the hilt style is unlikely to be Saudi, and I have to assume that it must have been imported there from a neighboring country. Again, Yemen makes a lot more sense than Zanzibar. I do therefore believe that the hilts of this style with a straight grip, an a vestigial quillon are Yemeni and later, probably dating back to the middle of the 20th century. Your sword Stu, on the other hand, has a slightly bent grip and its hilt looks to be of earlier and much nicer manufacture. Obviously, the above observations do not apply to it. |
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Does this mean that all Nimchas in the Yemen are Zanzibari? :shrug: The fact that it has not entered the history books does not surprise me one bit. There are many areas in the field of ethnographic weapons that are either not yet fully catalogued in this region e.g. The Hadramaut link. The link between Omani and Yemeni Khanjars..The Mamluke Kattara link ... Axes of the Musandam peninsula...The Kastane Sri Lankan link... and so on..Once a sword becomes adopted by a nation or group it is generally accepted as passing into that areas "menu of weapons"; take for example the Omani Kattara which it can be argued is a European trade blade circa 17th C. It puzzles me why the Zanzibari Nimcha developed a D guard which looks like a very European structure ... Perhaps the Portuguese dreamed that one up ?...Could it be that this version went into the Zanzibar hub the long way around via The Cape with the Portuguese Dutch or English whereas the other derivatives spread in via the Red Sea? :shrug: Regards, Ibrahiim. Note; While it is agreed that the D guard is a Zanzibari type, Buttin places more than 20 Nimcha on his plate at # 26 (Kurt) some with D guards some without. # 23 illustrates what I believe to be perhaps the "Iconic" Zanzibari version without a D. |
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Salaams, There is a lot of conjecture about the hawkshead Yemeni sayf which may be derived from one of the Nimcha Hilts see Buttin 1007 on the plate earlier by Kurt #26.. or is this coincidental or even the other way round..Perhaps the hawklike head of the Shashka is responsible? If it is the case that the Nimcha gave rise to the Yemeni Hawkshead then it follows that it too is a Nimcha variant. :shrug: Ibrahiim. |
Burton.
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Writing to you from a hurricane battered Buraimi which has just torn its way through the Oasis... quite an event ! Our store sign board is 500 metres down the road ! I read with interest your letter and thought the question of Burton and his innaccuracies could be the result of his failure to be exact in a number of issues and as you know his tendency to write with himself at the centre and the debacle of his once friend and travelling colleague which ended in suicide etc etc... Burton is not my choice of historic personalities but with this in mind perhaps I have an alternative source of more believable information. (Burton was in my opinion also remiss about aspects of swords and weapons in Zanzibar) . W H Ingrams wrote an excellent book about Zanzibar (Zanzibar: Its History and Its People by W. H. Ingrams ) where he was a political secretary etc in the early 1900s and it was one of his written sketches that pointed me in the direction of the Omani Funun as a possible and eventually successful lead on the Omani Kattara saga. I just finished reading a Hammond Innes 60s copy of travels in the Yemen (Hadramaut) and Ingrams gets a mention there as well therefor I had to research this quite amazing gentlemans history which looks like this..and source ed in the Oxford University collection St Antonys College where apparently they hold 14 boxes of his official papers; Reference code: GB165-0156 Title: William Harold Ingrams Collection Name of creator: Ingrams, William Harold (1897-1973) Colonial Administrator, Author Dates of creation of material: 1841-1872; 1915; 1930-1966 Level of description: Fonds Extent: 14 boxes Biographical history: INGRAMS, William Harold (1897-1973) Born 3 February 1897, son of Revd. W.S. Ingrams. Educated at Shrewsbury School. Served European War, KSLI, 1914-1918. Asst District commissioner, Zanzibar in 1919; 2nd Asst Sec., 1925; Asst. Col. Sec., Mauritius, 1927; Acting Colonial Sec., Jan.-May & Aug. 1932-April 1933; Political Officer, Aden, 1934; British Resident Adviser at Mukalla, S. Arabia, 1937-1940; Acting Governor of Aden, 1940; Chief Sec. to Govt., Aden, 1940-1942; Resident Adviser Hadhramaut States and British Agent E. Aden Protectorate, 1942-1945; Asst. Sec. Allied Control Commission for Germany (British Element) 1945-1947; Chief Commander of Northern Territories, Gold Coast during 1947-1948; Mission to Gibraltar, 1949; to Hong Kong, 1950, to Uganda, 1956; Adviser on Overseas Information, CO, 1950-1954. Editor of “Commonwealth Challenge” and “If you ask me”, 1952-1966; Joint Research Dept, Foreign and Commonwealth Offices, 1966; retired in 1968. Married, 1930, Doreen Short (1906-1997): 2 daughters. Died 9 December 1973. This is a phenomenal British Character and I promote his work and his Zanzibar book as a reference for this fine forum. W. H. INGRAMS. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
Zanzibari Nimcha...Ivory Comb...Buttin.
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Salaams all... Whilst rumbling about in Library I was inspired to look for relative design style of the Zanzibar Nimcha hilt decoration...and in trying to identify Zanzibar as the manufactuiring base for such items...This of course is very difficult and readers are cautioned that the entire African coastal strip on mainland Africa in that region was called Zanj. Personally I suspect that other Nimcha sword forms originated in the Zanj (perhaps I will expend on that theory later) however, for now the intriguing design to an Ivory "Zanzibari" Comb bearing the same style as the hilt of the Zanzibari Nimcha shown ... from http://www.michaelbackmanltd.com/65.html
There are many Nimcha references on Library e.g http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha from which the sword below is borrowed. For Interest I also show the Buttin page. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
Absolutely excellent entry Ibrahiim, and good comparison of decorative style of Zanzibari material culture applied on this sa'if hilt of 'nimcha' style. In this case we have compelling evidence comparatively suggesting this sword to have been produced in Zanzibar.
It is interesting to note that the 'D' ring guard feature which has been claimed to be a characteristic of these swords produced in Zanzibar is notably absent. As I noted in a concurrent thread on Zanzibar nimchas, in rechecking the Buttin reference shown, all of these examples shown (#996-1002) are classified as "Arab' and from 17th into 18th centuries. |
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Salaams Jim .. This discovery is 100% down to Michael Backman ... I was just the postman! In looking around I also pulled a few carved combs out of the system though not gold worked certainly from the same region. The "Michael Backman Comb" however sets a benchmark next to this important sword as a statement to its (the hilt) manufacture on Zanzibar. Below another comb from the same region though not worked in gold showing the roundels in its design (similar to the roundels on the displayed Nimcha Hilt and the *"swirling roundels" on the scabbard ) and another scene of Swahili girls on Zanzibar combing hair; from www.ezakwantu.com *A style usually attributed as Omani though the common link to Zanzibar is likely. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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Salaams Blue Lander ~ I think you will find that Nimcha variants of this form... I mean with somewhat "flimsy hilt and guards" are a mark of the less well manufactured work coming from the Yemen .. Im not sure if the slump in quality was because of the exit in and after 1948 by Jewish craftsmen but I am aware of a huge rehilting network (Sanaa) taking blades from everywhere and anywhere... mainly Ethiopian; see example at #67 ..from 1970 ..and doing a cheap rehilting makeover often removing better hilt material for the Jambia market (Rhino) and replacing with mediocre hilts displaying very poor hilt metalwork.. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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I am aware that pre 1948 the finest daggersThe Jambia were made by Jewish hands; It would be most peculiar if these craftsmen were not involved in sword making...not only the lavish and superb hilt and scabbard makers of wedding swords but in the production of blades..they certainly made the other related tools such as ploughs and digging implements commonly associated with blade making. Surely they were the best blacksmiths in Yemen? It should also be observed that I am not simply saying they made the blades... they possibly may not have ... but production of swords did not necessarily mean they made the blades as well... "Sword production" ...fitting swords together...importing blades...and adding hilts and scabbards was also common. They had on their doorstep a sword making region in Hadramaut...and of course imports from Hyderabad.. In fact Jewish involvement in the pan Indian Oceanic spices trade (see reference) ensured that they would have been very much front and centre in importing iron and steel around the region. We know that the Yemeni traders were well into land ownership in Java etc and were part of the scenery in Hyderabad...It is my view that amongst these traders were the famous mercantile traders ... The Jews. The fog appears around the late 1940s and not long after with the continued exodus. It is easy to see how history erodes their speciality from Yemeni artefacts. How decoration and quality has been affected in the Nimcha is hard to ascertain but I cannot imagine a sword made in Yemen to be so badly constructed in the hilt ...being allowed to exist before 1948... in a region boasting the finest hilt makers in the world. After 1948, however, there was a huge decline in craftsmanship. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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In response to Blue Lander (post #75), while this is indeed a crude munitions grade weapon, with hilt in 'nimcha' style, I would point out that the telling point is that langet style foldover on the guard. This feature is characteristic on the shellguard 'cutlass' type sabres which have been shown as Spanish colonial of Caribbean and primarily South American origin.
The same feature is seen on espada's with flat, striated shells on their guard also known Spanish colonial, and of 18th century. I would say these swords, noting they all have the characteristic hand nock in the grip, are well connected to this wide spectrum of colonial swords which have these features and trade blades and which includes the Spanish regions of Morocco. This is an excellent example of how these often humbly regarded weapons help us in better understanding the historical scope of these regions, and the true purpose of the study of ethnographic weapons. Turning to the well supported notes on Jewish craftsmen Ibrahiim has added, I would like to add that in Ethiopia that the Falashas , better known as Beta Israel, were the craftsmen who furbished weapons for the Amharic rulers and were of course essentially of the Jewish faith. In Morocco, the craftsmen producing arms were often Jewish, though I cannot recall their name. Many of these craftsmen accompanied trans Saharan caravans with the Hajj Pilgrims which travelled through these Ethiopian regions, which included Harar , the bustling entrepot which was key in Red Sea trade and on the way to Arabian destinations. This is of course a most brief description only touching on the complexity of these networks and how extensively Jewish artisans were involved in many areas of material culture crafts, which extended far beyond simply silver work and jewelry. They were also prevalent in all manner of decorating and furbishing arms, their skills clearly covering North Africa, and into Arabia from their long ancestry in these in Andalusian Spain. |
I think that the word CRAFTSMEN used by both Jim and Ibrahiim confirms what I was trying to say on my reply above. The lack of quality work in the subject sword hilt to my mind is not what a Jewish CRAFTSMAN would turn out.
Stu |
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It seems to me that most of the Nimcha blades with some attachment to the Red Sea and Indian Ocean are from German and European sources. Is this simply a matter of trade blades being teamed up with hilts (of a Zanzibari Style) and scabbards (often with swirls in the leather Omani Style)? Buttin notes Arabian... rather than nominating a specific nation. It seems the Billao style hilt pictured below is African ~Somalia. and very similar to the Nimcha on Buttins chart of that type. Regarding the roughly made hilts ~Are we saying that the roughly knocked up versions are late Yemeni copies? (I would agree on that) These, therefor, could be something of a late red herring ... An entire shoal of them !! The lavish VIP Ivory and Gold Hilt (with supporting comb) would appear to be Hilt and scabbard made in Zanzibar... blade European? or Hyderabad or Hadramaut? In regarding all things Zanzibari it is worth pointing out the confusion even in maps... see below where "Zanguebar" fills a place between Mozambique and the Gulf of Aden ! It begs the question that if a weapon was described as coming from Zanzibar where, in fact, did that mean? As you point out we are dealing with "sword networks" and unless we can be quite specific the description has to be entertained with a broad brush view. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug: |
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